new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[DingusMcGee]

Gman,


We are in this endeavor together. I can accept your rationale for using a lower voltage with the controller. But that does not mean I think your rationale is a good argument for the rest of us doing such as you do as if were the gospel. Nor necessarily is your rationale a good argument for how the components will actually perform.

I always hear the same lame arguments from you;

And what do you think I hear from you? If mine[arguments] are so "lame" they should be easy to deconstruct? I sometimes challenge thread posters on the level of actual information they offer to support their point of view. Hence, measure the cap voltage at the leads.

you're just looking to pick up a fight, like you did with Lantice13 at the beginning of this thread...[see page 7] and then others; but like they say, ignorance is bliss... so, why don't you just solder the leads and find out, huh?

Pick a fight? I take this as a euphemism for saying he brutally destroyed my lame argument and I am a poor looser.

As for Lantice13 poo pooing gear clamps, I am still using the same gear clamps configuration show in the photo[pg 7 of this thread] on this bike without the washer stack. I do ride it on difficult trail & hill. That workout and duration of clamp use likely substantiates that gear clamps in the right places alone are adequate.

why don't you just solder the leads and find out, huh?

I am betting that the caps can take 5% overload if they even see 80v. No need to know what is at the leads. I do have a spare controller and you?

SCOTUS has declared some words are fighting words. Have I used any of these with you?

Again, you guys can do whatever you want with your money, its yours to spend.

If you meant what you said in the above verbiage, why the grandiose effort to tell me so much of what you think of my ideas? I believe you said,
' whatever" .

 

[spinningmagnets]

I am just repeating what I have been told, I don't know what half of this stuff means. That being said:...It is vital to spec "low equivalent series resistance" (low-ESR). In this function, a larger capacitor in physical size (uF) is not better. The uF size is irrelevant (except as it relates to finding a candidate that is small enough to fit inside the case, as mentioned in the posts below)

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=22194

Here are some low-ESR caps that are rated for 100V, and they should be easy to swap-in. If you try this and your controller still blows up, I will not know why.

26 mOhm, 100V, 820uF, $4
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/100ZLJ820M18X40/1189-1048-ND/3133977

 

[DingusMcGee]

Thanks Spinning Magnets for taking the time to filter out a good cap choice. I like the wording: Lifetime @ Temp. 10000 Hrs @ 105°C as I am certain this box stays less than 105C.

a larger capacitor in physical size (uF) is not better.

There are 2 useful measures of physical size for this application. They are uF and the caps actual dimensions. The cap has to fit in the case to get protection from the elements and be small enough to not bump other components. I see Dig-i-Key gives those spatial dimensions.

 

[juanfeli]

Does somebody know how to compare the results of any other motor of ebikes.ca motor simulator with a Cyclone 3000?

In my case I run 44.4v x16 Ah with 26’’ wheels. I love the torque that it has and I haven’t had any problem with overheating even using it as single speed. But as personal preference with my hard tail I don’t like to ride it for more than 30mph and I happy cruising at 20 or 25. I average 25 Wh/mi.

So I’m considering starting my second build with a Salsa Spearfish (29’’ probably 27.5+) which I found quite weak for a mid-drive. So if I go with a hub motor, what would give similar performance?

I’d think that none, especially considering additional parameters like price and weight.

What do you think?

Forgot to mention that when I had the cyclone with the 29", it felt more comfortable with speeds over 35mph. I don't know if it was because the wheel size or the full suspension or both.

 

[juanfeli]

Business idea for Luna or Cyclone.

Could be worth it to offer and aditional upgrade ($) for the kit. Temperature sensor from the motor ready for CA3 and CA3 ready connectors for the controller.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DingusMcGee]

If the rear wheel is 29" you will see less torque and less hill climbing ability than with 27.5" or 26" rear wheel and hub motor but more speed when the resistance is low.

what would give similar performance?

I must ask in what gearing is used for the C-3000 when comparing.

A MXUS 3000 watt hub motor suited for 29" wheels. Choose your speed winding.

http://kinaye-motorsports.myshopify.com/collections/direct-drive-hub-motors.

I have a 3000 watt MXUS on a fat bike. It can be made to climb some steep hills as the motor can readily take 6000 watts. It is very quiet compared to my Specialized Fat Bike with the Lightning Rod Small Block.

 

[juanfeli]

29’’ and 27.5+ have the same diameter as 26'' fat

 

[DingusMcGee]

Yes, the OD is about the same but the axle width is bigger on a Fat Bike so the Fat Bike Motor might be a little wide for the dropout width on a 29".

Barent Hoffman at Kinaye is quite willing to answer questions about the various options.

<Barent@kinayems.com>

 

[RageNR]

26 mOhm, 100V, 820uF, $4
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/100ZLJ820M18X40/1189-1048-ND/3133977

Nice find dood. Someone needs to buy a couple of these or some 120v caps and experiment. A higher voltage battery and cap will give room for better performance.
I can only see positive improvements coming from additional voltage and lower amperage. Well, at least until we start to sling motor bearings apart from high RPM. Such fun

 

[RageNR]

Boys, I've got quite a few of these lying around...
Time to experiment??

I'll let you guys guess what I use to do...

 

[robocam]

HVAC?

...I'll let you guys guess what I use to do...

 

[RageNR]

HVAC?

Ooohhh, you are a sharp one..
Yes sir. Commercial split systems and package units, among other various things.
Seen quite a few sketchy setups in my adventures. Some of them I decided to help along..

I will tell you, it is quite scary being elbows deep in a unit when a cap decides to blow off some steam. They sometimes explode with voracity.
However, contactors and low voltage transformers sometimes self-destruct in grenade like fashion. Many occasions where I count my blessings when I've almost lost an eye, or even my head.
That 460v... she is a wild beast!

 

[RageNR]

I've also got one of these bad boys hiding somewhere in all my parts.

Here is a quick little video that explains how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb3uxZ8sU8Y

This could be fun...

 

[gman1971]

Sadly I am not wrong this time so there is nothing to argue here. Do whatever you want.

So, if you have nothing better to say than to go against electronic design practices, then keep it quiet, you've stated you are running one at 84V; fine, but again, that goes against electronic design practices... but don't demerit my PERFECTLY VALID argument. And get this straight: This is a FACT that running caps over rated voltage shortens their life, considerably; how fast? that is not known. End of the story. You can claim whatever you want, if anyone here has ever built an electronic circuit (beyond what turns the lights on/off in your house) they'll understand. You obviously haven't so there is nothing to talk here.

G.

Gman,


We are in this endeavor together. I can accept your rationale for using a lower voltage with the controller. But that does not mean I think your rationale is a good argument for the rest of us doing such as you do as if were the gospel. Nor necessarily is your rationale a good argument for how the components will actually perform.

I always hear the same lame arguments from you;

And what do you think I hear from you? If mine[arguments] are so "lame" they should be easy to deconstruct? I sometimes challenge thread posters on the level of actual information they offer to support their point of view. Hence, measure the cap voltage at the leads.

you're just looking to pick up a fight, like you did with Lantice13 at the beginning of this thread...[see page 7] and then others; but like they say, ignorance is bliss... so, why don't you just solder the leads and find out, huh?

Pick a fight? I take this as a euphemism for saying he brutally destroyed my lame argument and I am a poor looser.

As for Lantice13 poo pooing gear clamps, I am still using the same gear clamps configuration show in the photo[pg 7 of this thread] on this bike without the washer stack. I do ride it on difficult trail & hill. That workout and duration of clamp use likely substantiates that gear clamps in the right places alone are adequate.

why don't you just solder the leads and find out, huh?

I am betting that the caps can take 5% overload if they even see 80v. No need to know what is at the leads. I do have a spare controller and you?

SCOTUS has declared some words are fighting words. Have I used any of these with you?

Again, you guys can do whatever you want with your money, its yours to spend.

If you meant what you said in the above verbiage, why the grandiose effort to tell me so much of what you think of my ideas? I believe you said,
' whatever" .

 

[gman1971]

I am just repeating what I have been told, I don't know what half of this stuff means. That being said:...It is vital to spec "low equivalent series resistance (low-ESR). In this function, a larger capacitor in physical size (uF) is not better. The uF size is irrelevant.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=22194

Here are some low-ESR caps that are rated for 100V, and they should be easy to swap-in. If you try this and your controller still blows up, I will not know why.

26 mOhm, 100V, 820uF, $4
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/100ZLJ820M18X40/1189-1048-ND/3133977

Thanks, and this is the right answer. Bashing the other members response with nonsense is not.

G.

 

[gman1971]

26 mOhm, 100V, 820uF, $4
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/100ZLJ820M18X40/1189-1048-ND/3133977

Nice find dood. Someone needs to buy a couple of these or some 120v caps and experiment. A higher voltage battery and cap will give room for better performance.
I can only see positive improvements coming from additional voltage and lower amperage. Well, at least until we start to sling motor bearings apart from high RPM. Such fun

Amperage will be controlled by the controller at 40, you won't see lower amperage. the FETs inside are rated 100V, so running them at 92 V (24S) is as far as I would push the controller with 120V caps. At 24S you will be adding ~16 volts fully charged, or about 700W of extra power over 18S... again, if you're looking for better performance and you don't care about warranty then you're better served by shunt-modding the controller.

I am pretty sure the bearings will be fine, we're not talking 40,000 RPM here so...

G.

 

[RageNR]

Amperage will be controlled by the controller at 40, you won't see lower amperage. the FETs inside are rated 100V, so running them at 92 V (24S) is as far as I would push the controller with 120V caps. At 24S you will be adding ~16 volts fully charged, or about 700W of extra power over 18S... again, if you're looking for better performance and you don't care about warranty then you're better served by shunt-modding the controller.

Ok see, I don't have one in hand to look over. I did not know what the FETs were rated for. The rating does make sense.
As for performance improvement, I think we need to look beyond strictly the percentage in voltage increase. The difference in wattage may be more than 700w.
My reasoning for this is, when the batt pack is put under a load, you get voltage sag. The smaller the batt, the worse it becomes. We might see a performance increase of up to 1000w if lucky. (speaking relative to the lower power actual at a lower voltage due to sag.)
But, this is simply my theory at this point. I have no hard data to back those claims. Might very well be wrong.

 

[gman1971]

Amperage will be controlled by the controller at 40, you won't see lower amperage. the FETs inside are rated 100V, so running them at 92 V (24S) is as far as I would push the controller with 120V caps. At 24S you will be adding ~16 volts fully charged, or about 700W of extra power over 18S... again, if you're looking for better performance and you don't care about warranty then you're better served by shunt-modding the controller.

Ok see, I don't have one in hand to look over. I did not know what the FETs were rated for. The rating does make sense.
As for performance improvement, I think we need to look beyond strictly the percentage in voltage increase. The difference in wattage may be more than 700w.
My reasoning for this is, when the batt pack is put under a load, you get voltage sag. The smaller the batt, the worse it becomes. We might see a performance increase of up to 1000w if lucky. (speaking relative to the lower power actual at a lower voltage due to sag.)
But, this is simply my theory at this point. I have no hard data to back those claims. Might very well be wrong.

I understand that you might think, but Power = Volts x Amps. There is nothing to argue there.

But in the best ever case you have 75.5 Volts x 40 amps = 3020 watts, and then 24S, which would be ~94 x 40 = ~3760 watts. That's about the best performance you'll ever gain in power; not considering any losses. I am comparing equal batteries, of course if I use AA batteries my performance difference will be way worse.

G.

 

[RageNR]

Ok see, I don't have one in hand to look over. I did not know what the FETs were rated for. The rating does make sense.
As for performance improvement, I think we need to look beyond strictly the percentage in voltage increase. The difference in wattage may be more than 700w.
My reasoning for this is, when the batt pack is put under a load, you get voltage sag. The smaller the batt, the worse it becomes. We might see a performance increase of up to 1000w if lucky. (speaking relative to the lower power actual at a lower voltage due to sag.)
But, this is simply my theory at this point. I have no hard data to back those claims. Might very well be wrong.

I understand that you might think, but Power = Volts x Amps. There is nothing to argue there.

But in the best ever case you have 75.5 Volts x 40 amps = 3020 watts, and then 24S, which would be ~94 x 40 = ~3760 watts. That's about the best performance you'll ever gain in power; not considering any losses. I am comparing equal batteries, of course if I use AA batteries my performance difference will be way worse.

Let me correct my previous statement. I did not mean to imply that the "actual" wattage would be different. Obviously Volts x Amps = Watts. No way around that.
What I meant to convey is that the PERCEIVABLE diff in wattage performance may be greater. If the numbers show 10% diff in watts, the voltage sag on the battery may make it feel more like a 15% diff.
Then we have to factor in the losses like additional heat and wind pressure that might bring that back down.
I dunno, was interesting to think about. Poor choice of words in my previous statement.

 

[lantice13]

Hmmm 40+pages later, certain people finally able to accept the short comings of the stock mounting hardware of this kit and are coming up with the same ideas on upgrading them. nice to see everyone is coming down to the same conclusions. 8)

 

[DingusMcGee]

lantice13,

people finally able to accept accept the short comings of the stock mounting hardware of this kit and are coming up with the same ideas on upgrading them

NO. You got it wrong. We are not all coming up the same ideas on upgrading them. My modification is significantly different in its anchorings than any others including yours. And it is much much stiffer than yours. Plus I actually went through with an actual design criteria [tangential chain load] and then calculated how much material was need to do the job of restraining the motor. It was not a situation of guess work and make the piece bigger if it fails. About the only thing the same is that I kept the two frame sheets.

 

[DingusMcGee]

you've stated you are running one at 84V; fine, but again, that goes against electronic design practices... but don't demerit my PERFECTLY VALID argument.

You seem to have misread what I said, the charger puts 84v max onto the batteries -- no flyback voltage at this time. Disconnect the charger and you see a voltage drop to what would be an acceptable nominal high voltage for a controller that says it operates from nominally from 48v to 72v.

but don't demerit my PERFECTLY VALID argument

No, you do not have perfectly valid argument because you have not established that the conditions you says exist do in fact exist. Do your home work.

First, put the leads on the caps and measure the voltage with fast response volt meter. What voltage do they see ? You don't know yet. Get you evidence before you spout. In the legal sense they would say you lack standing, your case lacks proof of initial existence of conditions for such and such an argument.

 

[Mammalian04]

Wow... It's like a.... Cyclone in here. I'm scurrying back to my safe place in the LightningRods thread.

 

[robocam]

Guys, there's no reason to get personal here. All this stuff can be settled with empirical data. I can see valid arguments from both sides. The issue here is more of a personality conflict.

 

[robocam]

I'm running a 14s8p 25r pack, and at 52.5V (I just happen to have data at this voltage) the voltage sags 4.2% under full throttle (41.4 A). That would be a 94 W loss.

... I think we need to look beyond strictly the percentage in voltage increase. The difference in wattage may be more than 700w.
My reasoning for this is, when the batt pack is put under a load, you get voltage sag. The smaller the batt, the worse it becomes. We might see a performance increase of up to 1000w if lucky. (speaking relative to the lower power actual at a lower voltage due to sag...