new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[RageNR]

Guys, come on. Let's not turn this into a spitting match. I am addressing E V E R Y O N E, including myself.
If you have a theory, state your idea/point and quick description of the reasoning. Lets not argue theories as facts, for they are not.

If you have actual hard data to backup your claim, please post that. The truth is always the truth. Facts to prove that are irrefutable evidence.


As for the topic at hand, some of you have been using parts above the recommended specs. It may be working for you right now, and that is great.
But remember, this is an open forum. We do not want to give visitors false impressions. If or when you are proven wrong, you simply look like a fool. And what will bypassers think? They might dismiss the entire site as an unusable source of knowledge. Is that what we want? I thought the idea was to work together for the advancement of technology? I know that is why I am here.

Running beyond the listed specs IS risky. It WILL fail eventually, whether you are using it correctly or not.
The fact is, the failure will be sooner than later the farther you push the envelope.
If you have experience running beyond recommendations, and your device is still running, simply state it has been working ok for you thus far and tell for how long.
It might kick the bucket tomorrow. Be responsible and let us know when/how it failed so others can be aware. Lots of testosterone is being flung around, but lets be realistic.

On the 84v, and depending on the battery cell type you are using, voltage sag could go as far as 70v when under heavy load. Even so, that does not mean that the incoming side of the controller is not seeing 84v. Once the load is removed, the batt pack is going to recover to a degree. Might go back up to 82v if its not lower than 50% capacity.
My numbers are based on Tesla 18650 cells in a 20s7p pack configuration. Going off of the data I could find around the web from others that have tested.
This is simply my theory, as I am making clear. I have no hard data to back up the claims.

 

[robocam]

Why is stiffness important? Any modification should be adequate as long as the motor doesn't permanently deform the bracket. Slight movement of the motor does not cause any ill effects.

...We are not all coming up the same ideas on upgrading them. My modification is significantly different in its anchorings than any others including yours. And it is much much stiffer than yours. Plus I actually went through with an actual design criteria [tangential chain load] and then calculated how much material was need to do the job of restraining the motor. It was not a situation of guess work and make the piece bigger if it fails. About the only thing the same is that I kept the two frame sheets.

 

[DingusMcGee]

This is a FACT that running caps over rated voltage shortens their life.

so does eating ice cream likely shorten one's life.

considerably; how fast? that is not known.

this is not known. Absurd, if it's rate is not known then how can you say fast?

This is LAME non sense.

 

[DingusMcGee]

If you have actual hard data to backup your claim, please post that. The truth is always the truth. Facts to prove that are irrefutable evidence.

I have posted the actual data of stiffness of my frames after modification. Have you read my post in this thread on that topic and seen the dial gauge?

 

[DingusMcGee]

robo,

I wouldn't be able to tell if I gained or lost 100 watts out of 2400.

Your sensitivity to 100 watts in 2400 may be right on but I did not add the extra cells to see 100 extra watts at full throttle. Would't it be [for my battery setup]160amps x 4.2v at full charge = 672 watts? Maybe you could tell the difference between 2400 watts and 3072 watts when you got a new controller? The C-3000 controller dying due to cap failure.

I made those two batteries for range and ease of using generic 72v chargers.

But cut your controller shunt to break 60 m.p.h, that is what is important and we can hear the story again and again.

 

[robocam]

so does eating ice cream likely shorten one's life.

If someone were to run a randomized placebo-controlled trial, I'm willing to bet that there is a point where a certain amount of ice cream consumed per time period will increase mortality due to cardiac complications.

Absurd, if it's rate is not known then how can you say fast?

Here's something I found that may or may not apply.
http://www.garmanage.com/atelier/index.cgi?path=public&B&Energy_storage/Aging/Derating

 

[DingusMcGee]

robo,

you're right a little bit of ice cream may do you good.

 

[DingusMcGee]

robocam,

interesting find. Is the tension at 84v = near 2.5. Not much happens quickly at 5% extra in this zone of overloading.

 

[robocam]

Could you explain why you're comparing 2400 and 3072? If you run your setup at 84V and 160A, that's 13,440 watts. Could you tell if you added or removed 672 watts in that situation? It seems to me that would be the comparison to make. Or am I missing something?

Did you go from 48 to 72V? If you mean the difference in power between those voltages, then yes, I'm sure I could tell a difference. I could tell a difference going from 48 to 52V (although I was going from SLA to 18650).

robo,

I wouldn't be able to tell if I gained or lost 100 watts out of 2400.

Your sensitivity to 100 watts in 2400 may be right on but I did not add the extra cells to see 100 extra watts at full throttle. Would't it be [for my battery setup]160amps x 4.2v at full charge = 672 watts? Maybe you could tell the difference between 2400 watts and 3072 watts when you got a new controller? The C-3000 controller dying due to cap failure.

I made those two batteries for range and ease of using generic 72v chargers.

But cut your controller shunt to break 60 m.p.h, that is what is important and we can hear the story again and again.

 

[DingusMcGee]

robocam,

Could you explain why you're comparing 2400 and 3072? If you run your setup at 84V and 160A, that's 13,440 watts. Could you tell if you added or removed 672 watts in that situation? It seems to me that would be the comparison to make. Or am I missing something?

It looks like you win this one.

 

[RageNR]

I'm running a 14s8p 25r pack, and at 52.5V the voltage sags 4.2% under full throttle (41.4 A). What's 2.26 volts at 41.4 A? 94 watts? I'm fairly certain I wouldn't be able to tell if I gained or lost 100 watts out of 2400.

Heh, you posted twice while I was working on mine.

Well, that might be true in your case. Might be different for someone else, maybe...
I did not give any numbers to reference for my idea. Sorry. When I posted that reply, I was thinking of higher voltage setups. 72-84v range.
In that case a fully charged pack @84v could see a sag to 72v under a 10amp load. Like in my previous statement, this is based on data I could find on the Panasonic 18650 cells from Tesla.

If you take that same theory and apply it to a charged 14s pack (14s x 4.2v = 58.8 ), the sag at 10amps might reach 50.4v. ___ 58.8/50.4 = 1.16666..., so roughly 16.7% drop.
The voltage drop from a 20s pack, 84v to 72v (84/72 = 1.666....) would actually end up being the same? 16.7%
But lets take both those at amps pulled during load. For arguments sake, lets say the motor is pulling 3000w. At 84v that's 35.71amps. At 58.8v that's 51.02amps.
If we consider cells in 8p, 35.71/8 = 4.46a while 51.02/8 = 6.38a per cell. The 18650s in particular like lower discharge rates. The lower the amp draw, the higher the maintained voltage. 6.38/4.46 = 1.43. So a 43% diff in amp draw.
I am stating the packs at fully charged voltage because that is the data I found available to examine. This is based on a discharge chart for the Panasonic 18650s.
Lets say the cells drop to 3.8v @ 4.46a draw, and 3.65v @ 6.38a. Ok, that considered... 35.71a x 3.8v = 135.7w ______ 58.8a x 3.65v = 214.62w. Diff = ~58% (this is the losses, right?)
3.8v to 3.65v is a 4.1% diff. So we have a diff of 4.1% in voltage, but the diff in wattage is 58%.
That is not 100% scientific, but the best napkin math I could muster. Please do correct me where I am wrong.

All these numbers are based on the charts provided here: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-model-s-18650-cell-test-data.45063/
The numbers I am using are based on the first chart at the 0.02 capacity mark. I had to estimate voltages based on what I could see since there are no tests at the amp ratings in the figures above.
I know my figures are not spot on, but I tried to get as close as possible.
Again, I am only stating my theory. Looks to make sense to me, but then again, lots of things do. LoL Please add some REAL math in there.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Why is stiffness important? Any modification should be adequate as long as the motor doesn't permanently deform the bracket. Slight movement of the motor does not cause any ill effects.

Stiffness will keep the motor chain aligned [planar to each gear wheel] more of the time leading to less wear and noise. On my set up the chain has far more freeplay on the gear wheels that my motor frame could move in the severest of loadings. Slight movements [those exceeding some quite low threshold] accumulate in aluminum whereas steel has an endurance limit below which lesser cyclic stress loadings do not accumulate and lead to endurance failure.

If your ride difficult hills and trail you invariably will get some drive train shock loading. A very stiff frame will lessen any likelihood of seeing deformation from this type of loading.

Slight movement of the motor does not cause any ill effects.

My deflection is 0.0015 in per 150 lbs chain tension and this modification was done for a few $5.00 bills. I would call it slight deformation for loading I expect to put on it.

I suppose you could call my design insurance against permanent set or a high safety factor.

Certainly if your works for what you do, then no need to change. I used just 4 gear clamps on the c-3000 and no washer stacks on one of my hill climbing bikes and the frames are still true and in use. But the particular setup of these clamps keeps the deflection per 150 lb chain tension quite low. But at some point by calculation of gear clamp strengths the gear clamps are like to catastrophically fail and perhaps twisting something when they do. I have plans to switch them after 3 tightenings.

 

[DingusMcGee]

RageNR,

I think you are on the right track of how adding extra cells actually changes the battery output and drawdown.

Robocams statement was more of a what if we add such and such [100 watts added] can we feel it? He declared he probably could not. In a situation where you were neck and neck in a race and suddenly you got 100 watts more power than your opponent on the last hill climb -- he would see the difference.

 

[RageNR]

I think you are on the right track of how adding extra cells actually changes the battery output.

Thank ye kindly sir. I would hope so. My poor puny brain hurts after running all those figures... LOL
I updated my post, but I am going to post that part here separately because it will get lost in that sea of numbers.

3.8v to 3.65v is a 4.1% diff. So we have a diff of 4.1% in voltage, but the diff in wattage is 58%.

^^^ My conclusion. --- Please reference the entire post if you would like to know how I came to this decision.

 

[DingusMcGee]

robocam,

using your link:

If the caps have a lifetime rating 10,000 hr at 105 C as do the Dig-i-key 100v caps suggested by SpinningMagnets, then using the equation under Inverse power voltage derating, the caps would have a life time 4818 hr when used at 84v -- if they ever see this much. you know the assumption by gman. 4800 hr at 14 mi/hr = 67,342 miles 'til failure. Lot of riding yet. But remember this is what fast means -- I guess.

 

[lantice13]

lantice13,

people finally able to accept accept the short comings of the stock mounting hardware of this kit and are coming up with the same ideas on upgrading them

NO. You got it wrong. We are not all coming up the same ideas on upgrading them. My modification is significantly different in its anchorings than any others including yours. And it is much much stiffer than yours. Plus I actually went through with an actual design criteria [tangential chain load] and then calculated how much material was need to do the job of restraining the motor. It was not a situation of guess work and make the piece bigger if it fails. About the only thing the same is that I kept the two frame sheets.

well If it's not flawed, why did you upgrade them? lol hose clamp not enough anymore?

 

[DingusMcGee]

lantice13,

people[are] finally able to accept accept the short comings of the stock mounting hardware of this kit and are coming up with the same ideas on upgrading them

I never denied the OEM frame is inadequate [has short comings]. I made my first modification before I ever noticed this site. But we are coming with ideas to correct this unwanted movement but our ideas are not all the same and my ideas are not the same as your nor even some facsimile of what you did.

See bottom page 7 of this thread for what I did with 4 gear clamps and no washers to stabilize the motor. This differs from what Luna Cyclone suggests only in degree and not kind. The clamps are still in use today and that bike gets on some steep and rocky hill climb attempts.

hose clamp not enough anymore?

As I say they are still in use on the bike you see on page 7. For pavement [even 25% grade ] & street use this mod is likely totally adequate. The 4 clamps are cheap and require little time or tools. Far easier to implement than your mod or anyones idea who has posted about mods on this thread.

My second bike top page 37 has a very stiff modification and it anchors the left side of the motor to the frame not some extended projection of the "hingie" bolt coupler system that is included with the kit. Hence the stiffness, not an extension of the wobbly problem of the not thru bolts setup with couplers.

 

[le15otl]

There are so many ways to get a stiff mount, one may be the the strongest but others can still work
I haven't actually shown mine here but it's different to all others, still works fine even if it's not the best one.

Shame there's all this conflict on technical stuff when we are all in the same boat,
could make a separate ''cyclone3000w bicker thread'' hahaha

 

[DingusMcGee]

le15otl,

Shame there's all this conflict on technical stuff when we are all in the same boat,

But it is conflict that drives the boat!!!!

We are getting somewhere.

Or should we all post pretty pictures of what we have done?

 

[le15otl]

A bit of both I suppose

 

[RageNR]

But it is conflict that drives the boat!!!!

No, no it's not. That would be the Captain.
Guess I am going to have to assume El CapEEtan if you girls can't get along.

Or should we all post pretty pictures of what we have done?

Yes, exactly. POST ALL TEH PIKTURS!
Vote with your wallets m8s.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Shame there's all this conflict on technical stuff when we are all in the same boat,
could make a separate ''cyclone3000w bicker thread'' hahaha

That's not a bad idea. Not to delete anything, just maybe move all posts that don't have "on topic" content to a separate thread. Give me some time, I'm at work right now, and my "give a damn" meter might need just a little more static before I'm willing to take the time of pruning the stuff that is a huge turn-off to new readers, whom I presume we all want to leave from their readings of endless-sphere that..."ebikes are a good thing, and ES is the place to find good info and answers to questions"?

The Cyclone 3000W is not my cup of tea, but...if anyone likes the stock mount? use it. If anyone wants to beef up the mount to add more stiffness? Please do so, and I would be grateful if you'd post pics. I haven't seen any discussion about adding a chain-guide, to ensure "sprocket feed" remains stable and predictable. Maybe there's something worth discussing there?

 

[RageNR]

That's not a bad idea. Not to delete anything, just maybe move all posts that don't have "on topic" content to a separate thread.

Agreed. I am pretty new here and I can tell this is needed badly. You got your work cut out for you though. Good luck

It would be really nice to have a Cyclone master thread. Seeing as how popular and cost effective this kit is, we really do need a way to organize the collected info.
Meaning a thread with USEFUL info. Not a thread full of needless banter, pandering, and bickering.
Info/Details on the kit, tried n true methods, purchase options, mods, parts replacements/upgrades, and posts of members build's for observation.

 

[DingusMcGee]

le15otl ,

There are so many ways to get a stiff mount

How about posting them? I would like to see them.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Oh Mother Spinning Magnets,

I have trouble, it is a conflict. Can I post?

Welcome to the world of conflicts. My OEM Cyclone throttle doesn't work quite like I would like it to work -- a conflict of purpose? This time the conflict is with an object not a untrue declaration of what some person posted.

When I am riding trail and rough 2-track over a long field of 4" -6" cobbles my elbow inertia get in rhythm with the bounce frequency of the rise and fall of the bike shock damped front tire as it hit the cobbles. I have experimented with 2 ways to suppress or dampen this vibration forcing function.






I have tried a non split McGura electric motor cycle throttle and it does not allow much cross locking to a stationary point other than on the left end where the hand and thumb meet the body of the throttle.

The jar gripper fix works better than increasing the near proximity of the splits. The elbow still bounces but learning flexibility at the wrist leads to more relaxation in the forearm.