new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[robocam]

I think the only thing specific to Luna are the black-colored brackets. If I were you, I'd definitely look into increasing the current to the BBSHD. I wish I could see what's going on because I can't imagine any situation where I would be slowed to 3 mph even using a GNG because that's what's currently on my bike as I wait for the hall sensors from Paco. In 1st gear (44T/32T crankset to 42T rear cassette on a 29er), I can run about 14 mph (with the GNG). The torque feels limitless. Maybe someone can do some physics calculations to see how fast you can raise a certain mass with 1500 watts of power. A 32% grade is about 18 degrees. I mean, I could run up a hill faster than 3 mph.

This was mentioned in an email from Luna earlier this week: "The Cyclone 3000w is one of the best bargains we offer and is for sale for $349 for the kit. This is the newest cyclone kit made specifically for us which has annodized black brackets and uses a quieter gear reduction to make this thing much quieter than previous versions: "

It does sound a little ambiguous. But the way I read it, it's a newer version of the Cyclone 3000 kit. Hopefully someone from Luna can confirm.

Increasing the current on the BBSHD with an external controller is another option i'm considering.

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

The torque feels limitless. Maybe someone can do some physics calculations to see how fast you can raise a certain mass with 1500 watts of power. A 32% grade is about 18 degrees. I mean, I could run up a hill faster than 3 mph.

That 3 mph is a rough estimate, but I do feel like I could run/walk faster up the hill then the speed I'm going at on the lowest reduction. The 32% grade is based on some Strava runs I found on the same segment of trail. It could be more in some very small sections. I could probably still get up it in a slightly higher gear. I'll have to check next time I get a chance if I'm maxing out my amps on this section of the trail.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Robocam,

just as you have shown, you can get any torque at the wheels you can dream up but it is somewhat meaningless [SBP data or not]! That is why instead torques are specified at the motor output shaft.

torque at motor x motor rpm >> than torque at wheel x rpm at wheel -- gearing processes are not 100% efficient.

What really can you get at the wheel of C-3000 using Luna 52v and 42 amps [wattage = 58 x 42 = 2436]? Using a 13T motor pulley to 44/34 to 34 on the rear wheel the bike creeped [in lowest gear] up a 51% grade carrying me. I could have added more weight and determined the max load it could move but the other heavier bike needed some petal assist on this slope. This up hill movement requires 112 lb of tire traction [bike and rider weight] on the 26" tire or 112 x 13.25/12 = 123.67 ft lbs at the wheel. And you might argue just get a battery & controller that produces 477/124 x 42 amps = 162 amps and you have the 477 ft lb torque but as the Russian's noted the C-3000 becomes very inefficient at high wattages producing much heat. Doesn't Gman claim 90 amps?

If you or Gman want to make any sensible declarations of the actual torque of his Tadpole while riding on smooth Wisconsin pavement Put an accelerometer on it and we talk meaningful torque from the data. 477 ft-lb torque is dreaming with his set up.

 

[robocam]

I'm not really sure why you decided to bring up something Gman said months ago, but what he was saying sounds reasonable. The actual numbers may not be accurate (you should go over to the LightningRods thread to read about people blowing up even the toughest hubs - I wonder how much torque it takes to damage a hub), but what he was proposing is valid. He was basically saying that lowering your chain tension will result in greater drivetrain longevity. I don't really think there's really much to say against that.

The rear hub can see quite a bit of torque. How much torque does it see if you have a 22T chainring, 175mm arms with a 100 kg load, 42T rear sprocket? And that's just from a human. How much more powerful is a 2000 watt motor?

Robocam,

just as you have shown, you can get any torque at the wheels you can dream up but it is somewhat meaningless [SBP data or not]! That is why instead torques are specified at the motor output shaft.

torque at motor x motor rpm >> than torque at wheel x rpm at wheel -- gearing processes are not 100% efficient.

What really can you get at the wheel of C-3000 using Luna 52v and 42 amps [wattage = 58 x 42 = 2436]? Using a 13T motor pulley to 44/34 to 34 on the rear wheel the bike creeped [in lowest gear] up a 51% grade carrying me. I could have added more weight and determined the max load it could move but the other heavier bike needed some petal assist on this slope. This up hill movement requires 112 lb of tire traction [bike and rider weight] on the 26" tire or 112 x 13.25/12 = 123.67 ft lbs at the wheel. And you might argue just get a battery & controller that produces 477/124 x 42 amps = 162 amps and you have the 477 ft lb torque but as the Russian's noted the C-3000 becomes very inefficient at high wattages producing much heat. Doesn't Gman claim 90 amps?

If you or Gman want to make any sensible declarations of the actual torque of his Tadpole while riding on smooth Wisconsin pavement Put an accelerometer on it and we talk meaningful torque from the data. 477 ft-lb torque is dreaming with his set up.

 

[robocam]

So I've been using my 2015 GNG belt driven mid drive as I wait for the hall sensors from Paco, but I'm using it on the Cyclone's controller. Today, the belt snapped. I thought my chain broke when it happened. So I guess you can't run 43.10 amps using the GNG's 20mm wide belt =)

After I changed the belt, I made use of my new CA3_AuxP to adjust my power limit on-the-fly. I limited it to 1000 watts, the stock rating. The pot is one horribly overpriced item, but I like how it can mount directly on the Cycle Analyst, and it's waterproof.

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/ca-accessories/ca3-auxp.html

I also decided to order a few other goodies from Paco. I'm going to try a 40/38/24 crankset. I chose the 40 to reduce the chain tension, but then I decided to change from a 44/32 to a 38/24 because that's what I see on mountain bikes. I want to transition to using a "normal" mountain bike. The other pair I've seen is 34/24. I figure they must have chosen these combinations for a reason, so I thought I'd try them.

I'm tired of apologizing for having a motor, so I'm going to train until I can run with the best of them. =) This is one thing non-ebikers don't understand. If it weren't for the motor, I wouldn't even be out there.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Robo,

Sorry to hear about the soon and sudden Gates belt failure. I have an LRSB powered Fat Bike using Gates 25mm and it tore a new belt on the 2nd attempt of a quite difficult hill. I attributed the belt failure to hardtail bike inertial loading and no longer use that bike for such challenges.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Once again my hardtail c-3000 threw the rear chain on rough terrain -- pehaps too many links make for too much slack while trial riding? Some of the time the motor drives the rear chain between the stay & rear sprocket and twists several links. But no big problem as the links can be straightened using 2 crescent adjustable wrenches and sometimes you'll need a screwdriver. So far I have never bothered to replace this bent then straightened chain with the new spare one I carry. The chain has gone through about six straightening and still runs quite silently -- way more silent than my LR SB bike, which is no surprise.

This chain is a Shimano HG chain and the link/plates are somewhat malleable which permits the straightening.

Some advise from Gamn:

Robocam your mount mod has been working flawlessly, after 2000 miles no chains ever came off, not even at peak power at 6.5 kW @ 67 mph.
-The stock freewheels suck, both suck motor HD 14T and the stock crank one; My advice would be to replace them all with better ones.
-KMC BMX chains suck, get a Connex.

Bike chains are good for some 2200 lb f and the Connex chain is barely stronger than the Shimano but at 3x the ebay cost.

This often straightened Shimano chain of mine has yet to pull apart!

http://www.cantitoeroad.com/assets/imag ... esults.pdf

Was the statistical method 3-Sigma or just an average?


Don't let this fool you:

after 2000 miles no chains ever came off

gman rides smooth Wisconsin pavement with very little lateral bouncing on his trike. My suggestion: try difficult trail riding and see what your rear chain does -- which has little to do with how lousy of a motor stabilization modification [the Washerjob/Robocam modification]you may have chosen to use. In other words gman's offerings are of little useful advise for trail riders BECAUSE he can only talk road TORQUE.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Robo wrote:

(you should go over to the LightningRods thread to read about people blowing up even the toughest hubs - I wonder how much torque it takes to damage a hub).

Recumpense reports something useful:

I am not exaggerating by that, I pull 40,000 Watts through a bicycle chain and a standard rear wheel on one of my bicycles.

And gman squeaks out 6000 trike watts and braggs forever over his little feat?


Apparently it not exactly torque that ruins the toughest of hubs. For trail riding I think inertial loadings play a big factor in trail riding bike part failures.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Recumpenses is running a lot of power, but most of his builds use a 20 inch rear wheel, and he also adds a slip-clutch to prevent shocks to the drivetrain.

There was one build where the inputs were capable of 10,000W, but...the logger showed he was getting full acceleration with only reaching temporary peaks of 7,000W.

 

[Just2807]

Ok ive been reading this post for 2 days now xD
Gotta admit, some fightin on 1st 14ish pages was fun

Ill say 1 thing, u get what u pay for and in my opinion, this kit looks promising (at 60V 40A) since i surely like to get my hands a bit dirty and brainstorm around now when i know 90% of info i need to build it without worrying about overheating 2 much.

I did find A LOT of tootage, gearing ratios, power outputs, wheel sizes etc etc but ALWAYS missing 1 symbol in the equasion.

So, can any1 clarify in practice (no math or theory pls) possible speed on gravel/smoother trail with 30ish% slopes with gearing ratios, total weight and amp draw (or just roughly total kW draw) and ofc wheelsize? (at higher/efficient motor rpm's)

From what i read by now (with this kit or a bit older overvolted to 60), i figured it should be around this:

-120kg/260lbs total weight (bike, rider, batteries.... etc)
-just a bit over 2kW output (near full throttle)-30-40A at 60ish V
-48T(drive chain)-48T(wheel chain)-44T(cassette)
-27.5 wheel
-25-35% slope, nonasphalt, "smoother" trail, not hardcore
-speed averaging 20km/h (12 mph)
-hardtail, 0 pedal work

I got the numbers right?
Math gives 20-30% better results but ofc every next part degrades efficiency.
I am also aware that amps are torque and by raising the voltage (i understand it raises rpm's), u actually use less amps (therefore less torque) with the same amount of power so in practice it should vary end results.

So? Any rough uphill numbers on simmilar setups? (48/60v around 30/40A)

 

[robocam]

Ok ive been reading this post for 2 days now xD
Gotta admit, some fightin on 1st 14ish pages was fun

Impressive. You got all the way through =)

Ill say 1 thing, u get what u pay for...

What do you mean by that?

I did find A LOT of tootage, gearing ratios, power outputs, wheel sizes etc etc but ALWAYS missing 1 symbol in the equasion.

What's the missing information? What is tootage? Toothage?

-just a bit over 2kW output (near full throttle)-30-40A at 60ish V
-48T(drive chain)-48T(wheel chain)-44T(cassette)

I'm using a 52V battery (14 cells), and my maximum continuous power is around 2400 watts (somewhere around 43 amps and 58V).
The Cyclone comes with a 44/44 crankset. What cassette/sprocket has 44T?

I am also aware that amps are torque and by raising the voltage (i understand it raises rpm's), u actually use less amps (therefore less torque) with the same amount of power so in practice it should vary end results.

If you increase the voltage, you will increase the torque because torque is directly proportional to power because if you raise the voltage, you raise the power. When you use a higher voltage battery, the controller will still limit you to ~43A. You will not use less amps at a higher voltage (unless you purposely use less throttle). Torque will always increase as you increase the voltage.

 

[robocam]

A chain can transmit virtually as much power as you want as long as you can make it move fast enough. It's the tension that we're concerned with, so knowing what gear ratios he used would be useful.

I think I understand what you're saying about inertial loadings, but can you explain what they are exactly? Maybe you can present a few scenarios.

Recumpense reports something useful:

I am not exaggerating by that, I pull 40,000 Watts through a bicycle chain and a standard rear wheel on one of my bicycles.

And gman squeaks out 6000 trike watts and braggs forever over his little feat?


Apparently it not exactly torque that ruins the toughest of hubs. For trail riding I think inertial loadings play a big factor in trail riding bike part failures.

 

[robocam]

Thanks Dingus. It was quite entertaining when it happened because I had never experienced such a failure before. It only took a few minutes to change the belt, so it didn't spoil my ride. I was climbing a hill with large roots when it happened, so maybe it was inertial loading that caused it to experience extremely high tension. Would an inertial load be presented when something is trying to turn the wheel backwards but the motor won't let it? My bike is a full suspension, so I wonder if chain growth had an impact as the suspension moved up and down. It would seem that a FS would present a greater stress to the drivetrain due to the chain length constantly changing as the suspension moves up and down.

If a 20mm belt snapped that easily, a 25mm belt doesn't make me feel much more confident. I'm glad I chose the Cyclone. We'll see how it survives my trail rides.

Do you know anything about belts? I'm thinking about trying one of these from eBay, and the seller has PU and rubber versions. They claim the rubber one is better for electric vehicles. I'm thinking about trying both. Or are there better belts? Other brands are so much more expensive.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141543321215?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/475-5M-HTD-Timing-Belt-95-Teeth-PU-Steel-Wire-Closed-Loop-20mm-Wide-5mm-Pitch-/262015133153?hash=item3d0151a5e1:g:3rAAAOSw9N1V1-mP

Robo,

Sorry to hear about the soon and sudden Gates belt failure. I have an LRSB powered Fat Bike using Gates 25mm and it tore a new belt on the 2nd attempt of a quite difficult hill. I attributed the belt failure to hardtail bike inertial loading and no longer use that bike for such challenges.

 

[robocam]

Paco introduced this new steel motor sprocket cover to me, so I decided to try it. This should make it less likely that my shoe laces will get caught.

Here is my new 40/38/24! I can't wait to try it. I have it next to my 48s for comparison. I also got a 32 and a 34. The 34 isn't ramped and pinned, so I wonder if it will be more difficult to shift into from the 24. It's also aluminum (steel wasn't available). I hope my chain is long enough to accommodate the 38 with the 42 in the cassette.

This is how the 24 is attached in case anyone is wondering.

I also wanted to try the 40T chain guard. Paco told me it wouldn't fit if the 104 BCD holes are used, but I wanted to try it anyway to see if I could make it fit. I think I may get a Race Face bash guard instead since it uses the 104 BCD holes.

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B007VUONZA/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=32ERNNODGJ561&coliid=I25KI1E0RGEUPA&psc=1

I also finally decided to get his ISIS bottom bracket tool. It takes forever using the Pedro's wrench. I wonder if I can attach a socket to it so that I can use my power tools (not to tighten it of course).

And here are the hall sensors! Paco was so nice to give me two of them.

Now after all this, I discover that One Up makes a 50T rear sprocket!!! This was one of those SMH moments because I just received all these parts from Paco, but it still won't be as high of a ratio as a 24 with a 42, but maybe it will be enough to climb what I need. I'll try my new setup before I decide if I want the 50. I've enjoyed not having to mess with a front derailleur. FYI, Shimano makes a cassette with a 46 now, and it fits on virtually all hubs unlike SRAM's. If you need a 10T, One Up makes a minidriver that can accommodate a 10T but I've never needed my 11 with a 32 up front, so I don't know.

http://www.oneupcomponents.com/products/50t-shark-sprocket-18t-1x11?variant=16750159937

 

[sather]

I just froze up my 14 tooth heavy duty freewheel. Sick Bike Parts already sent me a replacement. Fantastic service!

 

[Just2807]

Ill say 1 thing, u get what u pay for...

What do you mean by that?

I meant if u go with price down, u can't expect everything to work magically. Some users bashing some parts but i dont see much "damage" in this kit for the price, compared to other kits. I certanly don't expect just plug-in with no problems.

I did find A LOT of tootage, gearing ratios, power outputs, wheel sizes etc etc but ALWAYS missing 1 symbol in the equasion.

What's the missing information? What is tootage? Toothage?

Yeah yeah TOOTHAGE, RIP my english. Sometimes is strugle with it :|
Every info is here but not as "full specs for a single product" in which i would see what to expect as a turbonoob. (practical spec not theoretic)
Think of it as specific results for a specific setup roughly.

-just a bit over 2kW output (near full throttle)-30-40A at 60ish V
-48T(drive chain)-48T(wheel chain)-44T(cassette)

I'm using a 52V battery (14 cells), and my maximum continuous power is around 2400 watts (somewhere around 43 amps and 58V).
The Cyclone comes with a 44/44 crankset. What cassette/sprocket has 44T?

None, its costume "granny" sprocket built in, like ones in your post above :] I think user "jonnydrive" fitted 42T for better uphill performance with his overvolted 1680 kit.

Also i saw somewhere shimano made 11-40 ; 11-42 ; 11-46? xt m8000 i think(?)
I also read somewhere u can ask for different crankset before ordering from Cyclone.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Robocam,

there is a concept in physics that the change in momentum is equal to force x time which is called impulse. Likewise the change in angular momentum is equal to the Torque x time and is referred to as angular impulse. Momentum is the measure of how much inertia a body has. The spinning rotor in the mid drive motor has angular momentum when it is spinning. The faster angular momentum is reduced the greater will be the Torque needed. As opposed to energy momentum is conserved and has direction. In our ebike accelerations the earth takes up the momentum change and the net total change total of momentum of the earth/bike system is zero. Linear and angular momentum are of the same units and either form can be changed to other.

High Inertial loadings in ebikes come about when a high rpm motor rotor driving a free spinning wheel[from a bounce] comes in contact with the ground again [like after a bounce]. During the bounce the motor gained speed but had an abrupt change in its acceleration rate when the wheel recontacted earth.

Yes, you did get some inertial loading when you rolled backwards. The backwards movement of the rider/bike had linear momentum [and some angular in the wheels turning] that was felt by the ebike motor as all opposition to its angular momentum.

Even with a FS bike you can bottom out the shock and chain play if your suspension stiffness is too soft and the motor speed change will then result in higher inertial loadings on the drive train.

 

[Leebolectric]

Does anyone make an adaptor so I can use a ACS Southpaw front motor freewheel...I keep blowing up the sick bike parts freewheels.
I want something heavy duty and sealed...

 

[DingusMcGee]

Robo,

the 50 T sprocket has some appeal if I could get rid of the front derailleur? I have little interest in having 11 speeds on these ebikes but perhaps one could get longer gear life if the riding is spread over 11 speeds rather than 8 speeds. Switching to this setup takes some $$ for new derailleur, shifter, hubs and chain.

I have been tracking the availability of the SRAM EX1 component group [specifically made for ebikes] and it now looks like its release has been moved from late August to late November. What sounds good about this 8 speed component group is shifting under loads and no double shifts in addition to hardened steel components.

https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/products/ex1-chain


https://dirtmountainbike.com/news/sram-launches-worlds-first-emtb-specific-drivetrain-updated-guide-brakes.html

But I have several rational overrides in my choice to go with either of these large sprockets setups.

While running 72v nominal with gearing 14M-44-34--34R I do not seem to have any need for more force at the rear wheel contact and a slower speed. I have a very soft start throttle and can start on fairly steep hills. I am not having chain pull aparts or or motor hub failures [one hub came apart on me but likely from a loose cover plate].

But being able to shift just before the ending of a steep hill while under load and entering smooth ground does have some appeal. So I will wait for SRAM EX1. It may not work as good as they tout.

 

[robocam]

Wow, that Sram ebike stuff looks awesome. Way too expensive though at $605. I'm not having any issues with my standard bike components though. It's funny that they develop this stuff for much less powerful ebikes.

The reason I added a 24T chainring was not because I needed more assist, but I wanted to make my bike more like a non-powered bike so that when I'm out with my friends, I can say that I can do what they can too without using my motor as an excuse. I just tested the 24, and I really like it. I could not make the chain come off the chainring no matter how far I pushed the chain toward the tire, even touching the tire. That's good because if it came off, it would be a twisted mess.

My next issue is trying to see if I can bunny hop. Can you bunny hop on your ebike? I thought about carrying the 13 lb battery in a back pack, but it's so heavy!

Robo,

the 50 T sprocket has some appeal if I could get rid of the front derailleur? I have little interest in having 11 speeds on these ebikes but perhaps one could get longer gear life if the riding is spread over 11 speeds rather than 8 speeds. Switching to this setup takes some $$ for new derailleur, shifter, hubs and chain.

I have been tracking the availability of the SRAM EX1 component group [specifically made for ebikes] and it now looks like its release has been moved from late August to late November. What sounds good about this 8 speed component group is shifting under loads and no double shifts in addition to hardened steel components.

https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/products/ex1-chain


https://dirtmountainbike.com/news/sram-launches-worlds-first-emtb-specific-drivetrain-updated-guide-brakes.html

But I have several rational overrides in my choice to go with either of these large sprockets setups.

While running 72v nominal with gearing 14M-44-34--34R I do not seem to have any need for more force at the rear wheel contact and a slower speed. I have a very soft start throttle and can start on fairly steep hills. I am not having chain pull aparts or or motor hub failures [one hub came apart on me but likely from a loose cover plate].

But being able to shift just before the ending of a steep hill while under load and entering smooth ground does have some appeal. So I will wait for SRAM EX1. It may not work as good as they tout.

 

[juanfeli]

I can one inch, two max with 4 kg of Multistars

...Can you bunny hop on your ebike? I thought about carrying the 13 lb battery in a back pack, but it's so heavy!

 

[DingusMcGee]

From Luna Cycle:

We have the mini-cyclone in stock which offers the same power the 3000w offers when using  a 48v or 52v battery in a smaller size and weight.  This is a very nice motor

Check it out here its an awesome motor:

 http://lunacycle.com/mini-cyclone-kit/

and from the above site:

Mini Cyclone Kit



For experienced builders only
Only use our 48 or 52v batteries with this cyclone
Compact size for sexy looking bike
2000 watt system
Black anodized mounting brackets
Sleek looking motor
7 to 1 gear reduction built into the end of the motor
7 pounds
$419.00

and this is info provided for C-3000 talked of on this thread.

Cyclone Mid Drive 3000 watt Planetary KIT
9 product reviews


For Off Road Use Only
36-72V
40 amp high performance ebike controller (needs a high amperage battery)
Efficient Brushless motor
Planetary Geared reduction built into motor for the ultimate efficiency
Massive 6 to 1 planetary gear reduction
Only 12 pounds which is light for this kind of power
Waterproof
Heavy duty with upgraded ACS freewheel
Double chain-wheel 44t and 48t
Standard kit will fit 68-73mm bottom bracket or upgrade to Fat kit for 75-110mm bottom bracket sizes
Read our in depth article on the cyclone 3000w here


Note that new mini version is 7 lbs instead of 12 lbs. and has a 7:1 instead of 6:1. But again Luna says, "offers the same power the 3000w offers when using a 48v or 52v battery".

 

[sather]

I don't see any way that the motor mount can be beefed up laterally on Luna's new 2000 watt "mini cyclone". I bent the motor mount on my Cyclone 3000 using only 2200 watts.

Also, how noisy is it? Does it use the metal gears or nylon gears?

 

[robocam]

From Luna Cycle:...

...Note that new mini version is 7 lbs instead of 12 lbs. and has a 7:1 instead of 6:1. But again Luna says, "offers the same power the 3000w offers when using a 48v or 52v battery".

Yeah, I saw that and thought about it, and then I decided I liked the 3000 better. My bike is already so heavy that a few pounds won't make any difference.

There's no way it can offer the same experience when it's that much smaller. That motor has no fins on it, and it's smaller, so it can't cool as well. It doesn't have a significantly higher gear reduction (assuming Luna's specs are accurate), so there's no way it can match the larger Cyclone unless you use different chainrings. If anyone thought the Cyclone 3000 is noisy, this thing will probably turn your ride into a screaming banshee.

I just put the new hall sensors in my Cyclone 3000, and I am enjoying gobs of torque again. It feels so much more powerful than the GNG, and it's much quieter.

 

[robocam]

Yeah, I wondered about that too. You could probably put a ring around the end of the motor, but since it's so much smaller, it probably won't put out nearly as much torque as the larger Cyclone, so it might not even need any reinforcement. When did you bend your Cyclone mount?

I don't see any way that the motor mount can be beefed up laterally on Luna's new 2000 watt "mini cyclone". I bent the motor mount on my Cyclone 3000 using only 2200 watts.

Also, how noisy is it? Does it use the metal gears or nylon gears?