New small offering from Zero

Can all this arguing be avoided by stating that range might not be on par with gasoline bikes but range is not the only important factor for everyone? Seems like everyone agrees that energy density of batteries is less than gasoline.

Why must we all declare right now that one technology is better so the other one is useless?

There are different selection criteria for people. Luckily for us there are different options on the market.

Why must everything be zero sum. One guy liking gas bikes shouldn't prevent other people from liking electric bikes. Same thing works the other way.

I drove my Nissan leaf just out of town to go mountain biking yesterday. I left the house with 75miles on the counter and returned with 10 with the low charge light on. I was completely cool with it because I am used to the cars limitations. My nervous passenger asked what I do if I need to take a road trip. The answer is simple I take a different car. This is not rocket science. It doesn't mean my car sucks and the industry should give up on them.

I don't think I am a hero saving the planet. I think my kids arent breathing exhaust in the driveway. I enjoy the silence and lack of shifting. I like preheating the cabin without an idling gas motor. I enjoy the $100-200 ANNUAL fuel costs to operate this car.

Again, this entire conversation is about being honest with your use case and understanding that different people have different selection criteria.

If a zero sucks for touring unless you are a way above average user like LFP then don't buy one for touring. If you like the zero and it handles your commute than buy the zero.

Electric vehicles have some real advantages over gas vehicles. The power delivery is smoother and more consistent. Its infinitely tunable. The traction control and abs is more predictable. The maintenance costs are lower. They are generally less complex. The main disadvantage is the lack of energy density of batteries compared to fossil fuels. HOWEVER, this is improving all the time. Eventually when the batteries catch up you will have a clear winner in the market other than maybe nostalgia for the noise. Until then these electric vehicle developments are necessary stepping stones towards that future. So yeah the range might suck now but its the early days. If the range is all you need for your personal use then it doesn't suck. If you want loud pipes and gas stations then I'm sure those will be around for decades to come. At least until the market no longer supports them due to lack of demand. But even then people will still find a way. You can still buy horse feed and saddles.

Buy what you like and don't crap on everyone else's preferences. Seems pretty simple.
 
ebuilder said:
Difference between me and Chalo is, Chalo is a bike shop tech and I am a scientist. I have had a lot of validation for my arrogance and Chalo's is born from low self esteem...lol. A very different dynamic. Chalo can't do calculus. The proof is in the math, not anecdotal hearsay or pixie dust some cling to out of ignorance. And remember, Chalo believes BB7 disc brakes are good when the entire industry throws them for good reason under the bus...lol.
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Wow, you know as much about me as you do about everything else, it seems. Not that surprising for someone who won't even identify himself.

Here's a hint at what you don't know: before I retired out of high tech in my late thirties, I was a founding employee of Blue Origin for more than five years, working directly with Jeff and Neal. Jeff personally introduced me to Elon in my machine shop, the same day I first heard of the guy.

But it was an interesting path from art school to that point.

When I realized I was retired, I went to work doing the things I'd been doing on my own time, with my own money, all along. Bikes are my favorite tech.

IMG_20180423_222443~2.jpg

As for the motorbike in the topic line, I find it hard to get excited about something like that. But it is nice that it's much quieter and less hot and stinky than the motorcycles I used to ride. I'd use an e-MC if for some reason I couldn't ride a bicycle instead.
 
DanGT86 said:
Dude, I love BB7s. They are on 4 of my 5 bikes! Why do you have to drag innocent brakes into this? :lol:
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That is what I run on the rear of my cargo bike. I just replaced the pads at 33,637 miles last week. With regen, the brakes get little use.
 
ebuilder said:
DanGT86 said:
Dude, I love BB7s. They are on 4 of my 5 bikes! Why do you have to drag innocent brakes into this? :lol:
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Because they are single sided, have crappy braking performance and generally squeal if not set up perfectly.
Translation? They suck. Work on that would you? :wink:
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I knew the BB7 joke was going to be a distraction. But it rather well illustrates the point I was making about preferences and use case being drastically different for people.

Do I think they are the best brakes in the world or that racers win on them these days? No I don't. Do I think they have the most precise modulation? No I dont

Do I hate bleeding brakes? Yes. Do I gladly accept a chance of occasional squeal in exchange for never having a ride ruined by a stuck hydro caliper due to expansion or air bubbles? Yes.

I have had multiple instances of stuck hydro calipers. My riding buddy has been injured by a stuck hydro caliper. Nothing worse than looking forward to a ride and having to cancel and ride back home because sitting too long messed up your hydro caliper.

I wouldn't argue that that hydros suck and that people shouldn't use them. I am glad they continue to advance and improve. But for me I want no maintenance. I want reliability when I pick the bike up on short notice. I want field serviceability. I want brute force over precise modulation.

Its exactly like the zero. Is it the best bike ever? No. Is it perfect for some of us? Absolutely.
 
ebuilder said:
And Dan, this is mostly for you who has tried to engage in sensible conversation.

In some ways, electric aircraft really exposes the electric vehicle challenge. Many people conflate electrical efficiency with being better than gas. Electrical energy translating to kinetic energy is highly efficient but with one big problem. Storing electrical energy is highly inefficient in terms of energy per unit mass and volume.

Electric airplanes expose this reality and here is a light hearted review of why:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkomqD-A8kw

P.S. point taken on the braking front. Personally, I like to split the baby and really like mechanical dual piston disc brakes. If you build a new bike, give them a whirl. Quiet. Excellent modulation and surprisingly strong braking power.
https://www.performancebike.com/trp-spyke-disc-brake-caliper-black-mechanical-front-or-rear-abmd000055/p1366767?v=549405&msclkid=e6d1bcdc33401d405453df980b9dd39d&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PB%20-%20Shopping%20PLA%20-%20All%20Device%20-%20(25-100)%20-%20Branded&utm_term=4585032214922061&utm_content=TRP
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Thanks. I agree that electric flight has some high obstacles to clear. I'm glad people are trying but energy density is king when you have to use extra energy to stay in the air. Battery weight doesn't really penalize you at cruise with a wheeled vehicle.

Thanks for the heads up on the TRP brakes. I might try a set. I like the idea of both pads moving.
 
Warren said:
Chalo said:
I was a founding employee of Blue Origin for more than five years, working directly with Jeff and Neal.
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Wow! And I thought I had worked for some A-holes. Glad you didn't buy the eternal-growth-tech-will-save-us crap.
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Neal Stephenson is a super swell guy, one of my favorites. Jeff was always congenial and a pleasure to interact with. I don't understand many of his business decisions, and I hardly recognize him in photos these days. But my personal experience of the man was always positive.

In the real world, every asymptotic curve has an inflection point. I'm not eager to live through that part of late stage capitalism, so I try not to contribute to our collective self-destruction any more than I must.

When I was at Blue Origin, we started out by trying to circumvent rockets rather than making them-- they're a horribly inefficient, expensive, ugly means of getting ∆V. But innovation yielded to pragmatic concerns (if space flight can be considered pragmatic), and there you go. If it doesn't look like a colossal boondoggle, well that's because it has NASA and Boeing Rocketdyne for comparison. Riding to orbit on a column of combustion is the moral equivalent of burning trees to run steam powered logging equipment.
 
Chalo said:
Neal Stephenson is a super swell guy, one of my favorites. Jeff was always congenial and a pleasure to interact with. I don't understand many of his business decisions, and I hardly recognize him in photos these days. But my personal experience of the man was always positive.

In the real world, every asymptotic curve has an inflection point. I'm not eager to live through that part of late stage capitalism, so I try not to contribute to our collective self-destruction any more than I must.

When I was at Blue Origin, we started out by trying to circumvent rockets rather than making them-- they're a horribly inefficient, expensive, ugly means of getting ∆V. But innovation yielded to pragmatic concerns (if space flight can be considered pragmatic), and there you go. If it doesn't look like a colossal boondoggle, well that's because it has NASA and Boeing Rocketdyne for comparison. Riding to orbit on a column of combustion is the moral equivalent of burning trees to run steam powered logging equipment.
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So even decent, well intentioned people lose their minds with limitless wealth and power. Seems we have had this lesson many times before, and we still haven't learned.

Good analogy!

Steam powered logging.png
 
ebuilder said:
DanGT86 said:
Dude, I love BB7s.
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Because they are single sided, have crappy braking performance and generally squeal if not set up perfectly.
Translation? They suck. Work on that would you? :wink:
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A single BB7 with 203mm rotor on the front wheel of the heavy-cargo-hauler SB Cruiser trike works perfectly for me. Easily modulatable, even my aching beginning-arthritic hands can use them with the Avid adjustable lever with one or two fingers to get full braking force to skid the wheel if I feel like it (can't get more braking than that regardless of brake system ;) ). No fade with repeated hard braking in traffic from 20mph (max speed allowed for my trike here). Rotor gets pretty hot....

Not enough traction on the single tire for the trike's inertia to slam to a stop without skidding, but if I ever get around to adding the rear ones, I'd venture I could stop the trike in one length, maybe two, if the tires have traction enough to keep hold of the road.

I'm sure there's better brakes for various applications...this one works for me.


Ebuilder: In reference to your responses in this thread in general, and in many other places on the forum, something you should work on is your "absolute" mentality. You often post as if what you say is the ONLY way it can be. It's generally not. Usage and preference and need makes a huge difference to the right solution to a problem. Something that is a negative about a particular thing may make no difference in various usages and to various people, while the positives about some other thing may also make no difference to them. (or others).

I highly recommend you start considering that, and respond in your posts accordingly. (some of your posts show that...many do not). Otherwise all you do is alienate your potential readers, who then start just ignoring what you say, even when you're right. (for instance, I only see your posts when they are quoted by someone else whose posts aren't hidden by the forum, or I need to see the context of a reply with no quote, so I unhide one).

If people respond to you the way they do that you don't like, it's because of the way you respond to them.


You're not the only person that does this...but every individual that chooses to be better makes an example for others to follow that will improve communication, which helps everyone.

Every individual that chooses to be antagonistic makes an example for others to follow that degrades communication, which helps no one except those that come here with their popcorn.
 
10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5,.....
 
I don't think Amberwolf posted in this thread in order to contest your logic and can guarantee he was not 'attacking' you either.

Like myself, AW is a moderator here. Our job here is to moderate the tone of this forum. Neither of us liked the way this thread is heading. Like I've already mentioned to you in a PM It's fine to have an opinion about anything, Just state it once then leave it be. No need to go on and on repeating the same thing. You can lead a horse to water...

I don't think there is one person that has replied on this thread that does not understand what you are trying to say. The problem is that your argument does not go far enough to explain what H sapiens will do when there is no more petroleum. It's rather obvious that a tank of gasoline has more BTUs than the same size battery. :roll:
 
Tell everyone how much smarter you are than them then complain you feel insulted. Is the whole world in a conspiracy or is it u. I too have been on the end of ur insults and condescension.
 
Over the last two decades, I've heard many convincing and compelling arguments made to me on why EV's could never work out or be practical to do whatever it is you're doing.

Meanwhile, I will continue to have every vehicle Ive operated for the last many years be an EV.... with no signs of stopping, and every day more infrastructure equipment supporting our lives becomes EV, from tractors to trucks to replacing power grid peaker plants.

Someday when the world is 99% EV and 1% of folks are still burning something and making feeble propulsion as a byproduct of their heat release, the arguments of how EV's can never work might still be chanted among the most oil-devout.

Pity them for their intellectual blinders preventing them from seeing obvious foresight many of us here take for granted.
 
ebuilder said:
You join the legion Amberwolf that attack my style of posting. Why is that? Because you and others have no substantive rebuttal to what I write.
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No.

I suggested you post less confrontationally, and consider other viewpoints and usages than your own. It's not about who's right or wrong, it's about how everyone treats each other. I replied to you specifically about this because of the point at which this thread "derailed" and became about who was right and wrong, and the posts leading up to that. But these posts are written to *everyone* reading this thread, which is why these are not PMs.

I'm not discussing the topic; I don't have a rebuttal because it's irrelevant to me, my use case, etc.


The reason people respond to you the way they do is because of the way you talk to them, and the way you respond to what they say. At that point it doesn't matter who is right or wrong, or if there even *is* a right or wrong. By doing this it escalates undesired behavior by everyone involved. It becomes irrelevant if someone is right if they write or speak in a way that alienates their audience--people stop listening and start rejecting and becoming emotive instead of rational when there is a perceived attack. If no one is listening, what's the point of speaking?

It can be easy to step back and consider other viewpoints than your own, and post with those in mind. If anyone (you or others) cannot do that, I recommend withholding what might otherwise be said, that is likely to cause pointless confrontation and argument. We already have too much of this on this forum.

It's here for discussion, but if each person only considers their own needs, situation, usage, etc., and ignores everyone else's, the results of the discussion are generally not useful, and often degenerate into argument irrelevant to the discussion itself, as has happened here.

I thought about going into the examples right here in this thread; but if the people involved can't already see how it happened, nothing I point out is going to help.

Finally, I'll just repost what I said before:

You're not the only person that does this...but every individual that chooses to be better makes an example for others to follow that will improve communication, which helps everyone.

Every individual that chooses to be antagonistic makes an example for others to follow that degrades communication, which helps no one except those that come here with their popcorn.
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I always think it's funny when someone comes on here and tries to convince us that electric vehicles suck because batteries aren't where they need to be today.

Kinda fun to watch the futility of it.. :mrgreen:
 
And ES got what it deserved. Relief. I actually learned something in reading this thread and i think it will make me a better contributor. Thank to the moderators. Well done!
 
Thank dog.

In past cases I have felt it a bit of a shame, that we lost some baby with the bathwater.

But in this case I think there really was no downside, the community really dodged a big bullet there, all good and thanks to the mods
 
Just went back and reread this. Either there is a very specific set of personality traits and communication styles that don't work well with web forums or the same person keeps finding ways to sign up under different user names after getting banned. This entire discourse and the way it ended feels identical to other bans in not so distant memory.

It's a shame to see things end up this way. It seems so simple that you can express pretty much any opinion you want on here as long as you don't follow it up with statements like "anyone with any brains can see" or "obviously you are bad at math". Its almost as if the trick to not getting banned is just never directing anything that sounds like an insult at other members.

Just a weird personal observation: I'm starting to think there is a correlation between the number of times Nikola Tesla is mentioned in a post or username and the likelihood that the thread ends up in an argument or ban. It would be interesting if there was a way to run an analysis and see the correlation between Tesla mentions and bans.

Oh well. Hate to see someone go that was passionate about math and engineering but I totally get it and I'm glad the mods are active on here. I have definitely seen other forums descend into garbage from lack of moderation. Thanks guys.
 
john61ct said:
In past cases I have felt it a bit of a shame, that we lost some baby with the bathwater.

But in this case I think there really was no downside, the community really dodged a big bullet there, all good and thanks to the mods
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Nothing of value is lost here, i looked over his post history and it doesn't look good. Dude seemed to want a fight in a few threads.

After seeing some abusive messages to nicobie/amberwolf, i decided to make his departure a little less voluntary.. in the process, accidentally left the checkbox delete all his posts checked.. sorry about that; that's not standard operating procedure to nuke someone's posts along with a ban; we prefer to retain the conversation so that the continuity of conversation & history remain intact.

Hope nobody misses his posts... surely there's better conversations on here to read though :)
 
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