Old ebike, new controller and throttle

[monkeychops]

Hi. I have an old ebike, basic frame from 2000, modified for lipos and brushless about 15 years ago.
The controller broke recently so I replaced it with a cheap one on ebay with many more wires than I needed.
I also bought a new throttle at the same time, a basic 3 wire one.

I have connected up: the throttle to the controller, the battery to the controller, the controller hall sensor and 3 phase wires to the motor. All other controller connections I've not touched. I felt like it should have just worked but when I turn the throttle nothing happens.
I have a multimeter and have tested the battery wires to the controller are the right voltage.
I've tested the throttle wires and I can't see any voltage on any combination of connections I make with the multimeter probes. Same for the 3 phase wires.

I don't really know how to go about diagnosing this. I sort of assume the controller and throttle are ok as they are new. The motor was sort of turning (stuttering/cogging) with the old controller connected and I figured I had a short somewhere in the old controller.

So I think all the components are working, but don't know what to do next. These are the rubbish instructions I've got:

 

[docw009]

I believe you'll have to connect#12, the keylock wire, to +battery,

Then power up with the two connectors on #4. self-learning, connected. The motor should spin forward. If it does, disconnect #4 and power down. The controller has learned your motor phase/hall wiring. If it spins backwards, which has never happened to me, you try powering it again til it spins forward.

 

[slaphappygamer]

Since the previous controller was so old, I wonder if the brake sensor is different. If the above still doesn’t work, I would try to disconnect the brake sensor and try again. If the brake sensors are Normal Closed, the new controller is probably looking for a Normal Open sensor. Then your motor would never run. That could also be why you don’t see voltage on your throttle.

Oh wow. The instructions. I wonder how you “connect the bar to the bar”. The instructions should just give up and say “Here you go. Good luck!”. Diagram is very helpful, though.

 

[monkeychops]

I believe you'll have to connect#12, the keylock wire, to +battery,

Then power up with the two connectors on #4. self-learning, connected. The motor should spin forward. If it does, disconnect #4 and power down. The controller has learned your motor phase/hall wiring. If it spins backwards, which has never happened to me, you try powering it again til it spins forward.

Nice one, I've made progress! However the motor keeps spinning backwards when I connect. I've powered up 5 times now and it's always running backwards. Any ideas?

 

[gromike]

Switch any two phase wires with each other. That's how it's done on 3 phase AC motors, which is basically what a BLDC is.

 

[monkeychops]

Switch any two phase wires with each other. That's how it's done on 3 phase AC motors, which is basically what a BLDC is.

Thanks! I feel a small step closer - with the learning wires connected the motor now goes the correct way around. But when I power off, disconnect the learning wires and power on again, the throttle makes the motor spin backwards!

 

[TommyCat]

With the learning wires connected and the motor running. Some systems will reverse the direction by applying the throttle at this time…

BTW, with a BLDC motor with hall sensors, used with a sensored controller. You also have to change 2 of the hall sensor wires for properly reversing rotation, along with the 2 phase wires.

But this should be a mute point with a self-learning controller.


Regards,
T.C.

 

[monkeychops]

Tried a few more combinations of 3 phase connectors and found one that worked.
The throttle seems to send through loads more power than the last one I had. I only seemed to twist is a little bit and it was up to 600W+. Previously with the bike on the stand, full throttle would never send more than about 200W to the motor.

 

[monkeychops]

Ok another update (hopefully last one). I think the extra power was because something was snagging. It's now sending a normal amount of power through.
Plus the wheel seemed to reverse direction again. So I connected the learning wire and tried a few more combinations of 3 phase wire until I realised that if the wheel spins backwards while in 'learning' mode then it will spin forwards in normal mode and vice-versa.

 

[monkeychops]

With the learning wires connected and the motor running. Some systems will reverse the direction by applying the throttle at this time…

BTW, with a BLDC motor. You also have to change 2 of the hall sensor wires for properly reversing rotation, along with the 2 phase wires.

But this should be a mute point with a self-learning controller.


Regards,
T.C.

About this: I forgot to connect the hall sensor plug just now and the motor still worked fine. I guess the hall sensor wires aren't needed with this controller?

 

[amberwolf]

If it runs without the halls, then you have a "dual-mode" controller that can run sensored or sensorless, or a controller that is like the one on SB Cruiser's right rear wheel--it has hall wires, but it does not actually do anything with the signals from them--it *always* runs in sensorless mode.

You can tell the difference because sensored mode, with correctly matched phase/hall wiring, will be strong and smooth (though not always quiet, if it's not a sinewave controller) from zero RPM under load, while sensorless mode under the same conditions usually has hesitation, weakness, and extra noise (stuttering, grinding, etc).

If you have a sinewave dual-mode controller, it's likely that it will run in trap (noisier) mode when sensorless, and sine (quiet) only when sensored.

 

[TommyCat]

About this: I forgot to connect the hall sensor plug just now and the motor still worked fine. I guess the hall sensor wires aren't needed with this controller?

Controllers can be sensored, sensor less, or do both. The sensored operation seems to be more preferred as it gives better, smoother, and more efficient operational control using a sine wave driver.

1. Controller Driving Type​

Your controller driving type can either be a sine wave or a square wave controller. The sine wave generates sinusoidal waves, while the square wave generates rectangular waves.

Sine wave controllers are most efficient for uphills, mountains, heavy loads, and less noise, even though they are time- and money-consuming. On the other hand, square waves are time-saving and affordable but less efficient than sine waves.

Snippet from this thread...
Electric Bike Controllers— Which One to Choose?



If you don't see any change between having your motor's hall sensors connected or not, I would be suspicious that you're running in sensor less mode all the time. Probably due to a hall sensor or wiring failure in your motor. This may account for the strange learning wire/ just changing the phase wiring and operation. And what you said in an earlier post...

The motor was sort of turning (stuttering/cogging) with the old controller connected and I figured I had a short somewhere in the old controller.

A classic case for the motor's hall sensors not communicating with the controller properly.

If you have a desire for best performance, have a multi-meter and can use it. And up for a possible motor repair.
I highly recommend you check out this thread on how to diagnose your motor's hall sensors and wiring.

Testing BLDC motor's Phase Wiring - Hall Sensors and Wiring.

 

[m3vuv]

Hi. I have an old ebike, basic frame from 2000, modified for lipos and brushless about 15 years ago.
The controller broke recently so I replaced it with a cheap one on ebay with many more wires than I needed.
I also bought a new throttle at the same time, a basic 3 wire one.

I have connected up: the throttle to the controller, the battery to the controller, the controller hall sensor and 3 phase wires to the motor. All other controller connections I've not touched. I felt like it should have just worked but when I turn the throttle nothing happens.
I have a multimeter and have tested the battery wires to the controller are the right voltage.
I've tested the throttle wires and I can't see any voltage on any combination of connections I make with the multimeter probes. Same for the 3 phase wires.

I don't really know how to go about diagnosing this. I sort of assume the controller and throttle are ok as they are new. The motor was sort of turning (stuttering/cogging) with the old controller connected and I figured I had a short somewhere in the old controller.

So I think all the components are working, but don't know what to do next. These are the rubbish instructions I've got:View attachment 339648View attachment 339650

thats a lot better than no instructions or everything labeled in mandarin like most from the tar east!.