"peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

I just bulk charge my LiPo and I haven't balanced it in several weeks at all. If you mean it's hassle to charge 16S, I presume you mean you want the pack permanently fixed to the bike ? I have mine in a topeak bag because I need to bring it into the house to charge, so it's not an issue. I would love that falcon triangle bag but my frame is only 17" and the triangle is small. Still it might be enough to fit my little pack.

I too believe slower winds high voltage is the way to go, especially smaller wheels because you got the torque in a smaller wheel so you don't need so much current, but you do need lots of volts. I think for the pie you need at least 90 volts for it to be any fun in a 20" wheel.

The ebikes.ca simulator says that to get the same torque with the HT3525 in a 26" rim as a 20" you need to go from a 35 amp controller to 70 amps, that's an astonishing figure, that's half the current needed for the same power. That's 3kw according to the simulator and a speed of about 36 mph.

Now go to a 20" wheel and that torque goes from 120 lbs to 155 but the speed drops to 31 mph.

Switch to 120 volts and the speed goes to 40mph and the torque goes to 180 lbs and the watts to 4kw, that would drain any battery fast!

Go back to 40 amps controller and the watts drop and still 140 lbs torque, enough to throw you off the bike so you would even probably get away with go amps at 120 volts!, haha at that voltage in the U.S you could just plug your battery straight to the mains! :roll:

Switch to the HS3540 you still get 110 lbs torque on 40 amp controller and 40 mph use less watts, but it says it will over heat in 24 mins ? The HT will over heat in 14 mins on a 6.5% grade. 120 volts for 30 mph up a 6.5% grade with the HT.

It's kind of hard to know what to do judging by the simulator!

120 volts into the pie would be a lot of continuous watts, so would 80-90 and more current. More testing needed Dave! :mrgreen:

Get better soon!
 
@o00scorpion00o - I would love use bulk charger on LiPo series pack I.E. 84v and I am worried what if 1st pack group gets overcharge than 2nd pack group. I noticed when I charge 10s on my iCharger 3010B and the 1st pack tend reach voltage level maximum than 2nd pack but the 2nd pack gradual catch up (reach the line voltage maximum). Imagine if I am get a bulk charger set to 83v (4.15v each cell) and will it lead out of balance? I mean speaking of 20s4p pack.

Let me know what your experience and I might go ahead order BMSbattery bulk charger set to 83v and maybe set lower ampere 10A slow current into LiPo less lead overcharge or out of balance. I might want order Hobbyking medic battery system with 1A discharge balancer mods prevent LiPo gets over the limit line as play safe than sorry. Is this good idea?
 
chroot said:
@o00scorpion00o - I would love use bulk charger on LiPo series pack I.E. 84v and I am worried what if 1st pack group gets overcharge than 2nd pack group. I noticed when I charge 10s on my iCharger 3010B and the 1st pack tend reach voltage level maximum than 2nd pack but the 2nd pack gradual catch up (reach the line voltage maximum). Imagine if I am get a bulk charger set to 83v (4.15v each cell) and will it lead out of balance? I mean speaking of 20s4p pack.

Let me know what your experience and I might go ahead order BMSbattery bulk charger set to 83v and maybe set lower ampere 10A slow current into LiPo less lead overcharge or out of balance. I might want order Hobbyking medic battery system with 1A discharge balancer mods prevent LiPo gets over the limit line as play safe than sorry. Is this good idea?

I too was nervous but neptronix convinced me otherwise! :mrgreen: Seriously, he helped me out a lot with LiPo, (thanks Dave :D) I was scared as hell thet I would burn my house down, hasn't happened. LiPo has got to be respected an I am aware of that.

Chroot you should create your own thread and ask your questions there mate no offence but I've hijacked neptronix's threads too often!!!
:roll:

But basically the trick is to buy more LiPo than you need and leave 3 or 4 ah spare, that way LiPo stays in balance for a long time. Set your LVC in the controller to cut out at about 3.5 volts per cell - whatever the voltage sags or it will cut out early, but shouldn't be a problem with higher C LiPo or more ah.

So I set my controller to about 3.5 x 16S =56 volts - 3 volts sag. That helps to not take a cell over the cliff, but ideally you shouldn't go near lvc. By charging to 4.15 and discharge to 3.5 ish you will loose about 2ah capacity in a 10ah pack, so with your cycle analyst find out when lvc hits record the ah on your cycle analyst when it starts to lvc, then hook up the voltage monitors and see what each cell is at, they should be at about 3.5 -3.4 minimum if not adjust your lvc until they are about 3.5, that will (should) help any weak cells to NOT go below 3.2.

And by charging to 4.15 you also leave some headroom in case a cell starts to go higher.

I have a weak cell in one brick and that isn't a problem unless I go near lvc, then I have to put all the bricks on balance charge.

Even if you don't go to lvc you will notice they are off a little but I was surprised at how closely they match up during charge.

Just make sure you monitor each cell before, during and after charging until you get used to it. I just plug in now and forget about it, unless I run it down a bit too low.

I hope I've not left anything out ? :mrgreen:
 
OK, some updates..

Spent a ton of time on the 'net trying to find more suitable bikes, visited a recumbent cycle shop, checked out some BMXes, and tried to get some local guys to weld me up a extended frame BMX, no effin' dice.. I am stuck with the Trek for the time being.

I moved the seat forward about half an inch.... and the handlebars went down a little bit more as well.
It actually did wonders to help prevent the wheelies on today's road test :)

Checked out a 20in. wheel for the front today, BIG problem - i only get about 1 inch of pedal clearance of dropping that low - but the bike's geometry is correct! :lol: With a 20in. wheel, i can use one of the pedals as a kickstand, :lol: :lol:

So anyway, i'm thinking of going from 165mm to 150mm cranks to get me 1/2 inch more pedal clearance, go to a 24" front disc wheel ( if i can find one.... ), cut the vbrake bosses off the rear of the frame to give me more tire clearance, and stick a 2.7-2.8" tire on the rear instead of the 2.3" to get me a little rear end lift. The geometry should be about as good as it's gonna get, then..


Battery testing is complete, 1 dud-ish pack out of 13 packs that came out 98%-100% perfect.
The lipo fairy has been kind to me.

zippydud.gif


This pack is not too bad, but i would not put it into my regular lipo circulation. Looks to be about 0.5AH short on one cell.
It's charged to a bit above storage voltage and will stay that way until one of the other packs decided to have a wonky cell down the road.

Next step will be perma-soldering these into 10AH or 15AH groups. Not sure which way to go yet.

Gonna be sunny the rest of the week - should have time to get some serious hill climbing tests in. No lack of hills here.
 
Hi Dave,

You feeling better ?

7 pages and no climb, on your bike mate!!! :mrgreen:

hmmmm I've been thinking that a recumbent might actually be the bike for you, low down, better aero dynamics. Good geometry. I've seen them with suspensions too!
 
neptronix said:
...

Checked out a 20in. wheel for the front today, BIG problem - i only get about 1 inch of pedal clearance of dropping that low - but the bike's geometry is correct! :lol: With a 20in. wheel, i can use one of the pedals as a kickstand, :lol: :lol:

So anyway, i'm thinking of going from 165mm to 150mm cranks to get me 1/2 inch more pedal clearance, ...

No, don't do it. Wear your pedal strike as a badge of nuttiness. :twisted:
Free kickstand , keeps unskilled newbs off, etc.
Ala "Ghetto" http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32831
Works fine on the street/light off-road..

On a side note.

When you get a chance, can you grab me overall axle length?
I'll be using Dogman clamping dropouts. So no nuts or torque arms to worry about.
But I still need 190mm ish to make it work on "Strong".

Thanks.
 
That clearance is dangerous. I already hit my pedals occasionally if I try pedaling on even normal corners. I guess the full suspension rides lower and these newer pedals are wider. I once hit a curb on my right while turning right from a stoplight. That woke me up real good.
 
scorpion; as promised:

[youtube]-8opIgQ_KJY[/youtube]

70deg. motor temp at the beginning, 80deg. motor temp at the end, used 120% setting for the majority of the ride, and the pie was cooled off after about 15 min. This thing sheds heat well :)

Yeah, a recumbent would be nice, a 3 wheeler KMX for example. But in reality, there are no bike lanes out here, and i live upstairs.. a recumbent would be great for the race, but would be impractical outside of the race.. maybe later on when we get settled and buy a house.. that is if this country doesn't fall to crap ;).. until then i'd like to make the 2 wheeler work.

Brentie: axle length is about 8 inches. It's a little shorter than most ebike hub axles. I'm thinking the pinch will work for you, as long as you have standard 135mm dropout spacing.

veloman: It is dangerous indeed. But remember that i won't be pedaling too much - prolly just gonna hit the throttle on the curves and pedal on the straights.

I think not having suspension keeps the pedal strike predictable. After my geometry corrections, i should lose about 1/2 an in. of ground clearance, which is liveable :)
 
Brentis said:
Great vid.
Beautiful country you gots there
No snow or ice.
Whats the top speed in video?

Actually there is a wee bit of ice hangin' out still. But for the middle of winter, not bad..
Usually it is much greener here.

Top speed is 34mph ( 120% speed setting ), 27-30mph average though up the hill.
 
That's right, you don't have suspension, which will help a lot.

How big was this climb? grade? its hard to tell on video.
 
I can see why you live there - what a lovely country...
Now - if Ron Paul is elected president, I am applying for citizenship.
 
Why is everything brown and not green ? does it not rain ? :mrgreen:

Thanks for the vid!

Do you by any chance have a android or Iphone? if you do why not download the everytrail app and it will record the grades and the speed.that would be very interesting!

I would like to test that 20" up the 16% I took mine up! I bet it would fly!

What amps were you running ?
 
Thanks for the vids, Beautiful scenic! :lol:
 
That's exactly why I went with the frame I did. Having full suspension allowed me to adjust the bike geometry through a longer rear shock, then a longer front fork and eventually through extending the rear swing arm 8".

Check out the phases.

miniebike0.jpg


You would look like a circus bear on a bicycle on this but it worked great!
miniebike2.jpg


The swing arm mods
stretch2.jpg


stretch4.jpg


Finally where I'm at today
minimonster2.jpg


After seeing that ride I want to come visit you and go for a ride.

If you want to tame the twitchy throttle at low speed lower your phase amps. It has the biggest effect on take off torque on the EB3xx controlers and doesn't effect my top speed at all, just how fast I get to top speed if I set it too low.
 
Veloman: it is a 2-3% grade constant for a few miles, nothing too hardcore, but longer than the 8% grade 1/2 mile sprints we have out here.

scorpion: I don't have a smartphone and never will.. but i like http://toporoute.com to figure out things like that.
I don't know my amps yet since i haven't got the CA set up, or a precharge unit set up either.. been too cold and windy most of the time to solder, with occasional breaks of 50F-60F :)

It gets very green and lightly rainy up here in the spring - summer. Colorado is what you get when you mix a forest with a desert, and add insane mountains and unique geographic features ( like the rock formations at the Garden of the gods ). Definitely some eye popping, breath taking scenery in some areas, kinda boring and dusty in others.

zombiess: i would totally look like a circus bear on one of those, lol. 6 ft. with long legs makes even ordinary bike fitment difficult at some times. I normally ride a 21" frame, and always have to fit longer cranks. If i had the space to weld ( live in an apartment right now ), i'd totally do what you're doing though. The Trek hardtails are awesome though - excellent triangle space, rear rack bolts in no prob, beautiful flat dropouts, i love em.
 
OK, some updates...

1) I ordered a RST Gila for the MAC bike, and will be transferring the shorter fork ( about 1.25in shorter ) on the MAC bike to the this bike, this will help the geometry. Will keep the 26" wheel.
2) cell_man shipped me out a 18FET 4115 infineon controller per my special request ( thanks Paul!! ), i should have that in about a week, the tests at 30S ( just for kicks ) will commence shortly after :)
3) Will be grinding at the frame tonight, cutting off the rear vBrake post holders, and the front derailleur doohickey off the seat tube so that the controller can be mounted between the wheel and seat tube.. :)

Afterwards i should be able to fit a 2.75" tire in the back, and 12 lipo packs in the center triangle with the controller out of the falconEV bag.
 
neptronix said:
OK, some updates...

1) I ordered a RST Gila for the MAC bike, and will be transferring the shorter fork ( about 1.25in shorter ) on the MAC bike to the this bike, this will help the geometry. Will keep the 26" wheel.
2) cell_man shipped me out a 18FET 4115 infineon controller per my special request ( thanks Paul!! ), i should have that in about a week, the tests at 30S ( just for kicks ) will commence shortly after :)
3) Will be grinding at the frame tonight, cutting off the rear vBrake post holders, and the front derailleur doohickey off the seat tube so that the controller can be mounted between the wheel and seat tube.. :)

Afterwards i should be able to fit a 2.75" tire in the back, and 12 lipo packs in the center triangle with the controller out of the falconEV bag.

OH! Tell us more :D
 
Hehe yeah, i can't wait to get the 18FET.. :twisted:

pp_30ah.jpg


Group shot of the lipo.. that's 2.5kWh.. I love how half of it fits into a topeak rear bag.

pp_vbrake1.jpg


So yeah, 2.30" wide tire limit begone.. vbrakes FTL anyways on a build with this kind of power.

pp_vbrake2.jpg


Left a little meat on for structural stability. Might not be necessary, but i'm not taking chances.

I can't find a 2.75-2.80" tire, so i'm gonna see if a 3.0" tire will fit. Should actually gain some speed on the flats from a tire upgrade like that.. lol
 
My front 3.0 24" bicycle tire actually measures 2.6" wide using a 45mm rim.
My back 2.75 17" moped tire measures 3.0" wide in a 45mm rim.
You would be better of having a caliper at hand.
 
Dave you are crazy, 30S will take you to 50 mph ? that's what, 124 volts hot? :shock:

Mad man, maybe time for some body armour ? :twisted:

That's about 5kw you will be pumping into the pie at 40 amps, I'm doing that with just 60 volts and 80 amps LOL!

Or 6.2 kw if you use all 60 amps that controller is capable of, Beef it up and I'm sure 10kw wouldn't be impossible, that would be some serious power with the large diameter of the pie!

You will surely race up Pikes Peak now! :mrgreen:
 
Cool Video David 8) You got some nice scenery round there, certainly beats the views around here....

Stay safe when you up the voltage, looks like you are motoring pretty good as it is :)
 
I see you guys are running rear and front suspension, I am chopping some BMX frames to convert them, I recently bought two Manitou Metel-R's as they were going cheap. My problem now is with the spring rate, I figure with a heavy X5 in the rear and 16Ah 72v of A123, I am going to be running an above average weight. Does anyone here have any idea what sort of spring rate I should be looking at? Personally, I am tempted to go the highest possible, at around 800lbs. Nukeproof or Manitou were what I had in mind. Thanks. :D
 
The Mighty Volt said:
I see you guys are running rear and front suspension, I am chopping some BMX frames to convert them, I recently bought two Manitou Metel-R's as they were going cheap. My problem now is with the spring rate, I figure with a heavy X5 in the rear and 16Ah 72v of A123, I am going to be running an above average weight. Does anyone here have any idea what sort of spring rate I should be looking at? Personally, I am tempted to go the highest possible, at around 800lbs. Nukeproof or Manitou were what I had in mind. Thanks. :D

To calculate your spring rate you at least need to know what your leverage ratio is and the loaded weight. I know on my bike I'm 1:4 on the shock as in 1 unit of shock movement = 4 units of swing arm movement so with 1" of shock travel I have 4" of rear suspension travel. If I went 1:5 I'd need a higher spring rate and 1:3 lower spring rate. A lot of this depends on where and how the shock is mounted.
 
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