Ping 48V15Ah WTF

[garyhgaryh]

That's what I've been using, cheap automotive wire. 12 guage is big enough for anything a ping ought to be doing. 10 guage is the biggest you can get to fit the housing of a 45 amp anderson over.

thanks dogman. The wires on the currie electrical spring block is only 14 or 16 guage.

I think I'll go to home depot or lowes to pick up a few feet of wires which should cost me less than 3-4 bucks rather than buying an entire roll for $10.
Gary

 

[dannym]

Ahh, so it's not breaking in then. The ping bms charges my 48v battery to 60.5v, so about 3.78v per cell. This is higher than some other manufacturers recomend. Some say 3.65v is fully charged. 56v, where my ping is for 90% of a ride is only 3.5v per cell. So when the ping bms is balancing, it's during that part of the charge that is overcharged, and the bms bleeds off some power from the highest cells letting the rest catch up.

At the end, the battery is balanced, but slightly overcharged. This overcharge is the surface charge. The instant you draw any power from the battery, it dissapears, and the battery goes to the real fully charged voltage. This will be between 3.5v and 3.7 volts depending on the condition of the cells. If you don't draw any power the surface charge dissipates by itself, and the lights wink out as they fall below the voltage threshold for them to be lit.

3.65v for LiFePO4 is the absolute max voltage. Charging to 60.5v is unacceptable, the chemistry is "sensitive" and expensive.

Actually, one thing I noticed in charging some 20AH Yesas I have is there's not even any point to exceeding ~3.55v on a cell. That's already ~99% capacity.

From what I can tell, the BMS systems put on these packs are woefully underdesigned. And it's a shame, because the technology of an LiFePO4 batt is so awesome!

Actually I'm looking at designing some BMSs for some projects I'm doing, and I can see the difficulties involved. It's rather disheartening to understand the difficulties of doing this and wondering "well how have they done it before?" and apparently they... well, didn't.

 

[jondoh]

3.65v for LiFePO4 is the absolute max voltage. Charging to 60.5v is unacceptable, the chemistry is "sensitive" and expensive.

I disagree in the case of LiFePo4. There are other lithium chemistries that are sensative but I believe LiFePo4 could be charged (on occasion) to above 4v and be ok. Thundersky used to recommend 4.2v as the charge voltage. It's not like these batteries get damaged at 3.66v. Anyway, at 3.4v, the voltage starts to rise pretty quickly up to 3.65v per cell and then the charger turns off. At least this is the way it's supposed to work. Point is, the time the batteries spend above 3.65v per cell is usually fairly short-- unless they're seriously unbalanced or already damaged.

 

[dogman dan]

Yep. Ping charges high. Many others recomend 3.65 as an absolute max, and claim cells get damaged above that.

It's pretty well known now that with lipo, undercharging .1 volts to 4.1 volts extends lifespan. I wouldn't be suprised if charging lifepo4 to 3.65 max has a similar effect.

I'll let you know if my 2.5 year old ping with 600 cycles ever shows any signs of damage. Right now it still puts out full measure, but it does get unbalanced a little bit more when 100% discharged. But if I want the bms to work, I have to fully charge it. But if I don't need balancing, I could charge to 3.5 v and the battery would be fine. You only have to have the higher voltage than 3.65 to trigger the ping bms to start balancing. If it's not out of balance, the bms won't do anything anyway. So you can undercharge the ping most of the time and be fine.

 

[garyhgaryh]

Anywho, once I changed the XLR charging connector over to Anderson's (Ping said it was ok to do as long as I verified polarity), moved the BMS to the top, attached Anderson's to the output, and checked all polarities, it is now on the charger. It arrived with an output voltage of 39.4 and after 4 hours is now at 54.55V. I have been looking at different cases for it and have decided to use:

Why do you want to change the XLR plug to anderson's? Trying to understand the reasoning. I bought anderson's because i need to connect the battery to the bike.

http://www.rei.com/product/789679
This will be large enough to hold not only the battery but the controller and all the other miscelaneous electronics involved. It will be modified, of course, to have power toggles available from the outside and vent slots for cooling. Pics will follow.

I just picked up my escape hatch today. Here are some pics I just took.

View attachment 1

 

[Cold-E-Commuter]

garyh, I changed the XLR over to Andersons because I have a Watts Up meter that has Andersons on it. I have been using this meter along with a Kill-o-Watt meter to measure the charge going into the battery packs that I have been using. By changing the charging connector over to Andersons I am able to do so with the Ping. Just personal preference more than anything. This way in conjuntion with the CA I can keep total track of usage in and out. The charging connectors are white and green while the discharge is red and black, just to make sure I dont accidentally try to charge thru output or run the bike from the charge port. I hear that is a bad thing for the BMS. This setup also allows me to verify the Watts Up is acurate in the house using a profesional meter and then hook it inline on the bike to make sure the CA is acurate over a ride. I will try to take some pics of the different configurations tomorrow and upload. Hope all of that makes sense. I see the pics for the bike trunk. Looks good but how does the battery fit? Mine should arrive at the store on Saturday. Enjoy.

 

[garyhgaryh]

garyh, I changed the XLR over to Andersons because I have a Watts Up meter that has Andersons on it. I have been using this meter along with a Kill-o-Watt meter to measure the charge going into the battery packs that I have been using. By changing the charging connector over to Andersons I am able to do so with the Ping. Just personal preference more than anything. This way in conjuntion with the CA I can keep total track of usage in and out. The charging connectors are white and green while the discharge is red and black, just to make sure I dont accidentally try to charge thru output or run the bike from the charge port. I hear that is a bad thing for the BMS. This setup also allows me to verify the Watts Up is acurate in the house using a profesional meter and then hook it inline on the bike to make sure the CA is acurate over a ride. I will try to take some pics of the different configurations tomorrow and upload. Hope all of that makes sense. I see the pics for the bike trunk. Looks good but how does the battery fit? Mine should arrive at the store on Saturday. Enjoy.

Yes, I would love to see pics. I hooked up the escape pod today. Took some pics and will post it soon. It's a nice unit, but after I installed it, it's slightly warped since the way I installed it was probably non conventional. I'd like to see (or hear) how you look up the escape pod. Bought some grommets and made a hole for the wires to go in/out. You have to leave a space between the seat and the escape pod so that the lid can open.

How does the battery fit? I haven't put it in yet. I'll try to do that on Fri/Sat.
Gary

 

[dogman dan]

Re the andersons to charge. I have that on one of my pings, but haven't switched the other yet. I monitor charge in with a killawatt, on the AC side of the charger.

Easy to rig the andersons so you can't plug into the wrong set by mistake. On mine discharge is side by side, on the charge plug they go top to bottom.

I have to be carefull plugging in the xlr, or I cause a spark, but the andersons can't short out while plugging in clumsy.

 

[Cold-E-Commuter]

garyh, I promise I will get pics soon. Unfortunately this is my busy season and hours of work are brutal. I have not had a chance to change the things on my bike that I would like to, but might have some time this weekend. I have been using the Ping in the original 36V12Ah battery bag that came with the kit and have had no complaints. The only thing I can say is that it has plenty of space in that bag for a 1/2" layer of foam padding on all sides and weighs 2 lbs less. It is wonderful to be able to head out in the morning knowing that there is plenty of juice to get thru the day without having to haul a charger all over creation. The SLA batteries, especially the 36V12Ah pack had a max range for me of 18 miles and started to fade after 6 miles. I have pushed the Ping (48V15Ah) to a max discharge of 11.65Ah in a day with a ride of over 28 miles total and it still balances all LED's within a minute. And there was no fade in performance. Just as fast after mile 20 as mile 1. There is now a total of 261 miles and 15 charges on this pack and I am wondering why I didn't listen to all of the advise to bypass SLA and go stright for LiFePo4 batteries. You definately get a better bang for the buck. And I say that after only 15 uses. You can lead a horse to water...

 

[dnmun]

i just got my first ping and it has some miles on it already and it has swollen about 10-15mm in length so i am gonna try to recompress it some. i am thinking i will use wooden end plates so i can then compress the entire pack lengthwise when it is discharged, and then while held in the clamp i am gonna nail some thin boards along the side, or maybe i will use formica for the sides like nick already did on this one. but the formica is hard and difficult to shoot a small pin nail through to secure the plates on the end. with the nails in shear they should hold it in compression without tearing out. that's my plan now.

maybe plywood sides and bottom/top, 3/16" thick finished, or hardboard paneling with the white waterproof surface. stiff enuff to be attached to the rack with brackets.

 

[999zip999]

Dnmun, I thought you had been thru the ping thing. Where do you get all your battery know how ? I want to know what battery you have and how mamy ah are in there ?

 

[dnmun]

nope, never owned a ping until i bot this one from nick. he has had some problems with it already but put 5k miles on it i think and he had ping repair it once too.

my first impression is that the pouches need to be constrained which is why i am thinking how to build a tight fitting end cap type box on it. see if that slows the degradation from this point on. i think that might be why dogman has such good luck with his pack. along with the gentle touch.

i am familiar with his chargers and BMSes already though.

 

[999zip999]

Dnmun, Ilila at ebikessf tells me he thinks many of the problems to ping is being bounced to hard. Maybe but it is my amp. abuse. what battery do you have and how many ah are in it ?

 

[snowranger]

You might want to take a look at the bottom of the pouches. On mine, you can actually see the battery layers from underneath as well as the goo that leaks out. The other observable failure is delamination and opening of the pouch at the top near the tabs.

 

[dnmun]

i can smell the electrolyte on mine so i know at least one of the pouches is torn, and i assume it is where the tabs exit. not gonnna unwrap it yet.

 

[Cold-E-Commuter]

Just thought I would check in as it has been a while. I now have 800 miles on the Ping and have absolutely no complaints. I have averaged 17.25 miles per charge thus far and have a max ride of 27.2 miles. Even at that I did not hit the LVL. Still need to try and test the LVL but it is winter now and long rides just aren't going to happen. The weight and power difference over SLA batteries is amazing and I have questioned why I didn't do this sooner. The Aetoma BL-36 kit now has 3822 miles and is still running strong. I just wonder if there is some maintainence that I should be doing. End result, I recommend the Ping like so many others on this site do. Enjoy.

 

[miro13car]

Going back to posts of Battboy at the begining of this thread,
I bought from him HPS 36V 10Ah pack made of grey LifeBatt cells made by PSI.
it was one of the BEST spent 750 US dollars in my life, pack worked flawlessly for 2summers and 2 winters.
It works still like new , PSI cells are legendary for durability - made in Taiwan.
I admit there was some problems with tech support but they contacted me with support engineer and got me answers.
HPS battery is first class product I say , I say ARE, because apparantly they are still made by BMI , it looks like that:

http://www.bmi-energy.com/en_US/product.asp

don`t say that this is old web site - look at the bottom of page : 2009
exact same packs were made for LifeBatt just different logo.
Ping and HPS packs are light years apart in terms of construction and quality of cells, no just C rating.
Seeing Ping on picture after dealing with HPS is a visual shock.
Again seperate 2 things: person who sells and quality of battery pack - just , because there are issues with person that doesn`t mean battery is bad quality.
MC

 

[dogman dan]

It is like comparing apples and oranges, ping cells vs PSI. I also have over 2.5 years of flawless use from a battery. It's a V1 ping, only 1c cells.

To reach my house, uphill for 15 miles at the end of the workday, I absolutely needed 36v 20 ah. The ping cost me $450 including the shipping. The same size PSI would have cost me $1500. So yeah, no way can you compare those two cells. Leaving out the personals, I merely got exactly what I needed for $1000 less.

Of course if you need more than 20 amps, then other types of cells shine. That's why my racing bike is using turnigys. But for commuting 20 mph, the ping works just fine.

 

[Cold-E-Commuter]

I hope that people understand that I am not trying to compare brands or chemistry. This was intended to share my experience with Ping Battery. I have yet to find a flaw and we have passed 1000 miles now. The total cost of the pack shipped to me was $594. Not to bad for the chemistry compared to competitors and the life expectancy. Let's not forget that this includes a pre-wired, installed BMS and a charger. Seems like a good deal to me.

 

[dogman dan]

I totally agree. I have about 6000 miles of flawless use from my first ping, and about 1200 out of my 48v v2.5 one. Only problems I ever had was bad chargers or bad plugs to chargers. The 5 amp ping chargers I use now always work perfect. I had problems with cheapies, not the metal 5 amp ones you can get now.

When your commuter bike has a 750 watt motor and a 20 amp controller, you simply don't need more than a 2c cell. So why pay extra for one? Not knocking psi's. Just saying the ping works fine for the typical bike kit.

 

[999zip999]

My only Ping problem was me. 40 amp. controller on 20ah battery. I think the motor only ask for 33a. ? But I'm tried of being a test pilot, on my battery. Oh yea my bmc 600hs hub brunt a clucth and 2mos. ago brunt one green grear (220lbs)? Lucky for the spare parts. And Ping has help with ALL the right parts wiring harness and repair of my bms broads 2- 60a ,1-40a.I just shipped. Now all the bms problems were my fault., but one which the # 1 led would always stay on and drain. Ping replaced that one for free. Yes my battery is not as strong as new but 2yrs. old and 3000 miles daliy use. It has been thru a big learning experiment and I have learned a lot from alll of you and with PINGS support. THANKS.... p.s 24amp. on a 48v20ah at 28mph with 48t-11t a little faster yes peddling.

 

[dnmun]

i don't think the led would drain your battery. there is a 1k ohm resistor in series with the led and it would limit the current to 3.7mA. it is still not clear to me if there was a problem with that BMS. or if the shunt transistor was defective. i now have some extra BMSs to use for parts so maybe eventually we can swap out the transistor on one considered defective to actually prove if it is bad by repairing it.

 

[wineboyrider]

Good BMS via Wineboy!

 

[dnmun]

yes, your old BMSs will provide transplant parts. i have 2 of the older ping packs apart now, in expectation i will rebuild them.

some of the pouches have puffed up while sitting and i already had a bunch of puffers inside the packs so i followed AJ's idea of venting the gas from the pouches. initially i cut a tiny 1/2 mm slit at the very top between the electrodes but i realized that the way AJ did it meant that the seal would be inside the fold of the plastic on the edge where it is sealed. also i don't think the hot melt will stick there either.

so i instead decided to puncture the pouch out in the middle of the flat surface on the face and then used plastic electrical tape to cover the hole. so i went through about 6-8 pouches that had swollen and used a sharp razor knife to puncture the pouch and then mashed it flat, using a large stiff piece of plastic, the cover of a laptop battery in this case, and then after i had pushed all the gases out, i put the tape over the hole to seal it.

the idea is that when the pouches are reassembled face to face, the pressure of being squeezed into the pack will keep the tape sealed on the hole so it won't leak again and the pouches now will fit in the same space as before they puffed up. i have no idea how this will work long term, but otherwise these pouches were toast so they get a second chance this way.

 

[Cold-E-Commuter]

Finally done. At least for now. Enjoy!
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