Planning first ebike Conversion

[upward]

I have been reading through the forums and appreciate the wealth of knowledge and the community.

Planning my first ebike conversion to help reduce the use of my car for both commuting to work and to run errands.
My commute is:
- 19 miles one way 3 days per week (office #1)
- 9 miles one way 2 days per week (office #2)
- (Downtown is 3 miles one way for groceries)

The goal is to commute by ebike at least the 9 mile one way commutes.
Will try to do the 19 mile one way commute (lots of traffic with areas of no shoulder) but it is not a must for the project to be a success.

Plan to use my mid 90's Trek 830 Mountain Bike for the conversion. It has a CroMoly Frame and CroMoly fork.
I have a speed goal of 20-25mph on flats and a range of 25 miles.
I am 150 pounds and will pedal some. I live in central New Jersey with modest rolling hills.
Although I know how to clean and lube a chain, adjust brakes and change tires, I am NOT particularly handy so looking for a very low degree of difficulty for my first build.

Parts:
- cellman 36v 500w DD Kit (front wheel)
- ping 48v 15a LiFePo4 battery. Through the forums, I have read that a 48v battery will work with this kit.
- upgraded 5A charger

Questions:
- Any issues with using the Trek 830 for the frame?
- Does battery just plug into the controller (connections ready to plug). Hopefully no soldering involved or additional connectors need to buy?
- Recommend tires? 90% pavement, perhaps 10% dirt paths. Can I use 26" narrower than usual tires made for pavement? Does the added weight as a result of the motor and battery affect tire choice?
- Bike does not have disk brakes. One of the reasons not going for a more powerful kit (1000w). Is this safe?
- Do I need high rate BMS option for Ping battery? Guessing no.
- Best place get torque arms and c clips? ebikes.ca?
- Bag / case for battery? Need easy removal and attachment to rear rack

Thanks in advance for your help and looking forward to contributing to the community once I know something.

 

[motomech]

Your choice of components seems fine, but I would suggest rearranging them a bit..
The main two reasons some of us go with a frt. mounted motor is to leave the nice 9 and 10-speed drive systems alone and/or because the rear drop-out don't have an easy way to mount torque arms.
Neither is the case with your Trek. You would have to buy a DNP 7-speed freewheel, but that would mate nicely with your existing shifter stuff. And Treks, in general, are known for their solid drop-outs. Since it's CrMo, you could just one Ebike CA torque arm at your propossed power levels.
Then, you could shop around for a used moderate quality suspension fork ASM that would have disc brake mounts. At 20 mph, those two items are still optional, at 25 mph, not really

QUOTE-"Questions:
- Any issues with using the Trek 830 for the frame?
- Does battery just plug into the controller (connections ready to plug). Hopefully no soldering involved or additional connectors need to buy?
- Recommend tires? 90% pavement, perhaps 10% dirt paths. Can I use 26" narrower than usual tires made for pavement? Does the added weight as a result of the motor and battery affect tire choice?
- Bike does not have disk brakes. One of the reasons not going for a more powerful kit (1000w). Is this safe?
- Do I need high rate BMS option for Ping battery? Guessing no.
- Best place get torque arms and c clips? ebikes.ca?
- Bag / case for battery? Need easy removal and attachment to rear rack"-END OF QUOTE

I will try an answer these in a general way, I'm sure the TREK guys will amend them with more specific answers.
-I believe Paul[Cell_man]will send you everything for "plug and play". He's good at answering questions and working with you, so tell him it's a Ping and he probably would fix the controller to Battery leads with Anderson Power Pole connectors.
No reason to go with narrower tires. In fact, most here go the other way. They won't make a wit of difference in pedaling an Ebike and larger tires help smooth out the road. At 25 mph, that's something you will be way more concerned with.
-If you intend to use the stock MXUS controller, no, I don't think you need an un-graded BMS. I'm sure Dogman will reply to this.
-C-clips? I think you areb referring to the c-washers, they come with the kit. Confirm with paul. TA's-There are dozens of documented TA installs on various Treks here, but if Paul doesn't have something[I think he does], Ebike CA's TA's are very nice.
-Bag / case for battery? No-brainer here. That wonderful triangle space screems for an EV Falcon battery bag, and the Ping you mentioned fits! Way better than hanging all that weight off the a$$ end. If you have/get a rear rack/bag, just use it for your personal stuff.
I'll post a pic of my bike so you can see the bag, there's an indepth review on it in the Reviews section.
Hope this helps.

 

[john7700]

Motomech made a comprehensive reply there so I'll just add my $.02.

Get a Cycleanalist. Just spend the money and do it. You'll thank me latter

Go Rear wheel all the way

Fat tires like Holy Roller's or Large Marge's etc.

Disc brakes are nice but <25 MPH you can get away with V breaks no problem

Don't sweat the Torq arm, at that power any of the strap on ones will be sufficient.

Try to mount the battery in the triangle with a bag unless you need to be stealth. Rear rack
mount/open triangle looks a lot more like a regular bike if you need to pass.

Oh, a Magic mirror for rear view, a bell to alert people and I like a set of foldable panniers as well.

Have fun and enjoy the GrinN.

 

[Punx0r]

I believe that conventional wisdom is that 500W on the level will get you 20mph. My limited experience is 25mph draws more like 750-800W.

I guess you could pedal 200W to hit 25mph peak speed?

 

[dogman dan]

Your original plan looks flawless to me. Nothing whatsoever wrong with a front hub on that bike. With front hub, you'll get a well balanced ride whether you carry the battery in the frame, or carry it more conveniently in a rear rack.

But your bike is also perfectly fine to put a rear motor on it. If you go that route, you really must build a way to carry the battery in the frame. Fortunately it will fit. Old vintage metal toolboxes work great for this, some will fit a 48v 15 ah pingbattery like a glove. Heres my frame carry on the frankenbike.

Get a CA if the budget isn't busting your chops. If it is, riding the bike will pay for the CA very quickly. You'll save 10 bucks a day on the 9 mile commute. (gas + mileage on the car).

You will have the range to do the 19 mile ride at 20 mph for sure. ( should have about 25 miles at 20 mph) This is where the CA comes in, you'll want to know half way there if you will make it at 25 mph or not. At the halfway point, you will see if you have to slow for the rest of the ride or not.

Sooner or later, you will have to solder something if you are going to do big miles commuting. It's fairly easy to crimp some connectors, or solder others.

I'd recomend Anderson powerpole 45 amp contacts and housings. Get a bag of 10 or so from powerwerks. You'll need them later when you start adding lights and what not. Learn to crimp em or solder em. Not that hard do do that. Ypedal has a website of his own with some great you tube tutorials on andersons and crimping.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Sounds like a good plan. A lot of what I would say echos what everyone else has said.

As for tires, Cyclists go for thin tires to improve aerodynamic flow and weight while sacrificing grip and braking performance. Thats fine when its your leg power against a headwind. But its not what you want on an Ebike. Narrower tires actualy have more rolling resistance than a wider tire. I know that sounds wrong, but it comes from the findings of Schwabble:
"Small diameter tires have a higher rolling resistance at the same tire pressure, because tire deformation is proportionally more important, in other words the tire is "less round". Wider tires roll better than narrow ones. This assertion generally generates skepticism, nevertheless at the same tire pressure a narrow tire deflects more and so deforms more.[/i]" quoted from here: http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/rolling_resistance
Wider tires also give you a bigger contact patch for grip and have a lower ground pressure meaning punctures are less likely. And they are more comfortable to ride on.

 

[upward]

Thank you everyone for your invaluable advise and guidance.

Added to the build thanks to your recommendations:
- EV Falcon Battery Bag to hang in the triangle.
- Holy Rollers - Probably 2.2 or 2.4 width.
- torq arm from ebike.ca or similar
- Cycle Analyst. Standalone or plug in? The cycle analyst website says:
"For direct drive brushless hub motors used with our controllers or other controllers which have the appropriate 6-pin connectors, you should use the CA-DP model." Cellman's description of the controller on the website only says, " Microprocessor controlled brushless controller, with Hall sensors, 22A current limit."

Based on your advise, I will also switch to a rear hub motor. I was originally concerned about the added weight to the rear, breaking spokes and changing out the cassette for a freewheel but hanging the battery in the triangle helps relieve the weight in the rear issue and changing to a freewheel looks manageable (from youtube videos).
- Adding DNP 7 speed freewheel to parts list

Looking forward to ordering the parts and putting it all together!

 

[motomech]

Thank you everyone for your invaluable advise and guidance.

Added to the build thanks to your recommendations:
- EV Falcon Battery Bag to hang in the triangle.
- Holy Rollers - Probably 2.2 or 2.4 width.
- torq arm from ebike.ca or similar
- Cycle Analyst. Standalone or plug in? The cycle analyst website says:
"For direct drive brushless hub motors used with our controllers or other controllers which have the appropriate 6-pin connectors, you should use the CA-DP model." Cellman's description of the controller on the website only says, " Microprocessor controlled brushless controller, with Hall sensors, 22A current limit."

Based on your advise, I will also switch to a rear hub motor. I was originally concerned about the added weight to the rear, breaking spokes and changing out the cassette for a freewheel but hanging the battery in the triangle helps relieve the weight in the rear issue and changing to a freewheel looks manageable (from youtube videos).
- Adding DNP 7 speed freewheel to parts list

Looking forward to ordering the parts and putting it all together!

Man, you are easy! If I was gay, I would ask you out
Seriously, it's real sound plan so there's no need to mess with it.

The C.A. Direct Plug-In won't jive with the stk. MXUS controller. Paul could fix you up with an Infineon, but you don't really need the plug-in because you don't need the advanced limiting features. You will want Cruise Control and if the stk. MXUS controller won't do that[ask Paul], you can still do it with the C.A. S.A.
Paul's wheel builds are considered to be some of the best in the business, so you shouldn't have any problems there. Just be sure to ck. the spoke tension at interval early on.
One of the DNP vendors[It's Electric],
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GELBI0ASyZU
greases the freewheel before shipping, which is nice. Mine wasn't so I soaked it in gear oil overnite before installation. Worked great and had the added benefit of lubing the chain and gears. Unfortunatlely, it also lubes the motor, wheel ,chainstay, etc. So if you are fussy about things like that, you might want to buy it pre-greased from them. Putting it on is too easy, just screww it on by hand, it self-tightens to first time you pedal. Lube up the treads on the mounting boss well, in case you want to take it off later. Then you would need the special tool.
On one of my revisions, I put the controller in the side mesh pocket of the EV bag and that worked really well, but the Ping is wider than my Lipo, so it could interfere with your legs. Just a thought.
I think I would stay with a 2.2 or smaller tire for easier fitment.
I have a 44T frt. chain ring and with the 11T on the DNP, I can pedal up to 25 mph, but not much more without looking silly.
I'm not sure which throttle paul is offering, but I tried many and ended up with a left-hand half-twist, which is the best IMO. I don't use the frt. deraileur[you won't either, I suspect]and having the throttle on the left frees up the right hand for shifting. At any rate, a thumb style can be used on the left too. Ck my build thread for some pics of throttle installations
And as long as we are spending your money, you can't beat the lights from Ebike CA and they just reduced the price on the standard Luminator. Is's actually too bright at times, so the adjustaBle one would be nice. You can see the lights and my CA in this pic.
Good luck

 

[upward]

Received a quote on the 500w Direct Drive Rear Hub Kit from cellman which leads to additional options.
Appreciate you recommendations on the following:

1) Rim Type: 26” – DH19 CNC (for rim or disc brakes), DM24 CNC (for rim or disc brakes) and DM24 Disc (All Black for Disc Brake).
I have a Trek 830 mountain bike frame. Cellman provided the following link for more info - http://www.alexrims.com
Guessing I should get the mountain bike DM24 CNC (I have caliper brakes) but just checking.

2) Motor Winding for: options are 370RPM, 335RPM (out of stock), 305RPM or 275RPM no load at 36V.
I was planning on the 305 RPM since my area in central New Jersey (US) has rolling hills and the 305 RPM is I believe a tad slower wind than an 8T. Good choice? Will be running with a 48v 15A LiFePo4 Ping Battery.

3) Controller Upgrade (From stock MXUS 22A Controller): Infineon upgrade controller choices are; 6 fet 25A, 9 fet 30A and 12 fet 40A. Available with 75V IRFB3077 fets for 36-48V, 60V max (standard option) and also 100V IRFB4110 mosfets for 36-72V packs, 90V max voltage (IRFB4110 equipped controllers are slightly more expensive than the IRFB3077 equivalent).
I was planning to upgrade to the Infineon 9 fet 30A controller with IRFB3077 fets for two reasons:
a) The 30A controller matches the maximum continuous Amps for the 48v 15A ping LiFePo4 battery which I plan to get.
b) The controller upgrade will allow for the direct plug-in Cycle Analyst, which is less expensive than the stand alone. This partially offsets the upgraded controller cost.

4) EB3XX Infineon Controller Programming cable – 10USD. All Infineon EB3xx controllers are programmable with this cable.
Should I get this if I get a cycle analyst plug in version?

5) Cycle Analyst CA-LD, the latest version, correct type for a DD motor. 125USD
Any reason to order this from cellman with the other parts of the kit? Does it make sense to order it directly from Grin Cycles in Canada since I live in the US? The ebikes.ca site shows the direct plug in model to be CA-DP.

6) Was planing to go with the least expensive shipping (SAL). Guessing it will take between two and six weeks to arrive once the order is confirmed.
Shipping: Parcel 1
EMS 179
Airmail 176
SAL 107

Any bad experiences with SAL?

Looking forward to hearing your input.

 

[mark5]

I bought motors from Cell_man twice this past February with SAL shipping. Received each one about 1.5 week after it shipped, very well packed and in fine condition. The packages went to Port of Los Angeles first then final destination HI (I wonder if they'd go by air or surface to NJ). I got DM24 CNC rims for V-brakes.

 

[dogman dan]

Actually, the 30 amp controller DOES NOT match your battery choice. 25 amp is what you want. The battery will not last as long if you hit it with max amps enough of the time. You'll have plenty of grunt with the 25 amp. Cruising, you should pull about 15 amps, which is what the ping is comfy with. No need to stress the battery on long hills though.

 

[upward]

mark5 - thanks for the shipping advice. Going with the SAL shipping

Dogman - appreciate the guidance on the controller. Going with the infineon 6 fet 25A controller.

Sent my order form in to cellman last night for the kit.

 

[upward]

Just ordered the 36v 500W Direct Drive Kit from Cellman with 6 fet 25A Infineon Controller.
He indicated that there is a bullet connector from the Controller for the battery.

To simplify the installation, does it make sense to ask Cellman to install an Anderson Powerpole connector on the wire from the controller to the battery and ask Ping to do the same from the battery (48v 15A LiFePo4) to the controller?

 

[motomech]

Yes, it doesn't matter much which connector is used, but they should match.

 

[upward]

Cellman 36v DD Kit, 48v 15A ping battery on order and various parts on order.
Should be receiving all the parts in about 2-3 more weeks. I thought I was a paient person but it sure is a long time when you are excited about a project.

Two quick questions:
1) I have quick releases for my bike wheels. Any concerns with this? Most info I read on ES indicates that the axle nut (in my case the quick release) needs to be extra tight to compensate for the torque to the wheel from the hub motor. Torque arm on order from ebikes.ca

2) I have a DNP 7-speed 11T freewheel on order. I have read that a spacer (14mm?) is required for clearance on 8 and 9 speed freewheels but not sure if it is needed for the 7-speed freewheel.

 

[upward]

I called Falcon EV to order the triangle battery bag and spoke with a gentleman named Andy. He asked what kind of battery I ordered and I told him a 48v 15A ping. He immediately told me to cancel the ping battery because it would not fit in the falcon bag, since the falcon bag is only 3" wide (the ping is 4.1" wide). I thanked him for the information but I am going to stick with the ping (it is already being built) and find another way to mount the battery in the triange.

I've looked at tons of triange battery installs on a separate thread where folks:
1) build a box and mount the box inside the triange and use U bolts or velcro to attach the box to the frame OR
2) build an "L" type of base and again find a way to attach the base to the frame.

Any ideas for the most simple and idiotproof way to do this? I really don't understand what keeps some of the mounts balanced and from moving. Many of the mounts are a flat piece of wood or aluminum on top of a round tube.

 

[john7700]

Cellman 36v DD Kit, 48v 15A ping battery on order and various parts on order.
Should be receiving all the parts in about 2-3 more weeks. I thought I was a paient person but it sure is a long time when you are excited about a project.

Two quick questions:
1) I have quick releases for my bike wheels. Any concerns with this? Most info I read on ES indicates that the axle nut (in my case the quick release) needs to be extra tight to compensate for the torque to the wheel from the hub motor. Torque arm on order from ebikes.ca

You wont use your QR's you will bolt your rearwheel on. Nuts supplied usually


2) I have a DNP 7-speed 11T freewheel on order. I have read that a spacer (14mm?) is required for clearance on 8 and 9 speed freewheels but not sure if it is needed for the 7-speed freewheel.

I think you'll be ok. I was.

Any ideas for the most simple and idiotproof way to do this? I really don't understand what keeps some of the mounts balanced and from moving. Many of the mounts are a flat piece of wood or aluminum on top of a round tube.

use hose clamps to mount the bracket to frame and velcro to hold the battery in the bracket. You might be able to use a water bottle boss as well.

 

[upward]

Thanks to John for your response.

I made a mock-up of the battery and it barely fit in the bike's triange but did not leave enough room for even a basic wooden L shaped platform so I opted for the FalconEV bag.
It arrived yesterday along with the cellman kit and the ping battery.

48v 15a ping battery fits in the bag great, without any struggling with the zippers to close.
The FalconEV bag fits perfectly in the frame triangle of my mid-90's Trek 830.

Both cellman and ping were kind enough to fit anderson connectors on:
- the wire from the battery to controller and
- the wire from the controller to battery

On the battery, there is a wire with two connectors to the controller:
1) Red wire with red connector
2) Black wire with black connector

However, on the controller, the wire to the battery has three connectors (see picture)
1) Red wire with red connector
2) Red wire with white connector
3) Black wire with black connector

I emailed cellman for help to determine which wires on the controller to plug into the battery but if there is a simple answer I would welcome it since cellman can takes a few days to reply and I am pretty excited to do the build.

 

[mark5]

However, on the controller, the wire to the battery has three connectors (see picture)
1) Red wire with red connector
2) Red wire with white connector
3) Black wire with black connector

I emailed cellman for help to determine which wires on the controller to plug into the battery but if there is a simple answer I would welcome it since cellman can takes a few days to reply and I am pretty excited to do the build.

Maybe the red wire with white connector is for precharge as ebikesrfun and Mudduck wrote below?

ebikesrfun: Re: cellman battery help hooking up to controller.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=40106#p585982

Mudduck: Re: cellman battery help hooking up to controller.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=40106&start=15#p587725

 

[upward]

Mark5 - Thanks for the advise. Cellman replied and provided the same information that the red wire with white connector is a precharge resister and I can ignore.

Build Update:
48v 15a Ping Battery - Fits in the FalconEv bag great. Actually a bit of extra room and no issues with closing the zippers. May have enough room in the bag to cover the battery with stick-on floor tiles for protection. Charged the battery with 5a charger for about two hours and all lights on BMS illuminated.

Ended up with a set of Kenda K-Rads from my local bike shop and I put the tire on my new rear hub motor wheel. Greased and threaded on the 7-speed freewheel. Learned that I needed to remove one of the v-brake pads to make the wheel fit. Tried to file the drop-out a bit to make the axle fit better. Tightened up the bolts on each end and reattached the brake. At this point, I realize the v-brakes are out of alignment and rubbing against my rim. It's late at night and I just want to see if it works so I disconnect the rear brake and take the bike for a spin to see if I can ride it on human power. I try to pedal and all I hear is grinding. Yikes. After closer inspection I realize the freewheel is touching the outside of my frame. Take the wheel off and learn about what the 14mm spacer is for. I bought one from Grin and cellman included one in the kit. The grin spacer is beautiful but doesn't fit over the axel and needs a little filing. I tried the filing for a few minutes but got nowhere so I used the cellman spacer, then another washer to create more space. Worked great. While putting the wheel back on the bike, tried attaching the Grin torque arm also but again, it needs some filing to fit over the axel. Will need to learn what it takes to file this down. Took the bike for another spin and problem resolved, except my chain fell off and I need to learn to adjust the derailur limit setting but I will figure that out and be careful in the meantime. So time to install the throttle, mount the battery and controller and connect everything. I'm anxious to try it out so I decide to hook up my CA later and keep it simple first, just throttle, motor and battery to controller connections. As I connect the battery and controller, I am getting ready for this enormous, blinding spark. Connection made, no spark. Hmmm. Pick-up the rear wheel and try the throttle, no go. Pretty anti-climactic. I've never done this before so I checked that all the connectors were plugged-in an matching then tried again. No spark, no go. I charged the battery again overnight and will work on it more this weekend.

Questions:
1) Any suggestions on how to file the Grin Torque Arm so it fits over the axle. 5 mintes with a hand file yielded no metal removed.
2) Thoughts on how to troubleshoot to make the system go? I will check the connectors again looking to see if they are making good contact and perhaps change to a spare throttle to see if that is the issue. Controller (cellman Infineon 6-fet 25A) does not appear to have an on/off switch so don't think there is anything to turn on. I have a CA (unconnected) but have a feeling I may need to buy a volt meter and learn how to use it.

Thanks everyone for your support. The learning is fun but only being able to pedal my ebike without electrical assistance is not.
Looking forward to the weeked so I can fiddle some more and make it work!

 

[Punx0r]

Have you got a Dremel-type tool? A small grinding stone should do what you want on the torque arm.

 

[mark5]

2) Thoughts on how to troubleshoot to make the system go? I will check the connectors again looking to see if they are making good contact and perhaps change to a spare throttle to see if that is the issue. Controller (cellman Infineon 6-fet 25A) does not appear to have an on/off switch so don't think there is anything to turn on.

Some of Cellman's controllers have a wire where power has to be applied to turn the controller on. I have a 9-FET one but maybe yours might have the same wire. The red power on wire is with the thick red and black controller power input wires and terminates in the same connector. It's in the upper left corner of the first picture and green arrows point to it.

Second picture is a controller power to battery adapter cable you should also have. Yours would have Anderson connectors on the battery end. The thinner, looped back red wire plug feeds power into the controller turning it on when plugged in. So you just need to plug it in if you have it like this. I hope it'll be as easy as that.

 

[upward]

Bought my first multi-meter to troubleshoot the no power issue. I was teaching myself to use it and discovered after a few minutes that it takes much more accurate readings if you remove the caps from the leads. It is actually funny when you realize how much of a noob you are.
Checked the voltage from the battery and it read 56v. Seemed good.

An epiphany thanks to the last post from mark5. He indicated that a plug from the controller with a loop back red wire needed to be plugged in to power the controller. I checked and realized I had it plugged into the momentary switch for the throttle. Then I looked around for something to plug the loop back red pug into. In the kit from cellman, I had an extra throttle, a three speed switch for the throttle, ebrakes, a usb to controller cable and a cutoff switch with a momentary button. I was just trying to find something to plug-in that would fit and when I plugged-in the cutoff switch and flipped the red switch, my CA went on! Tried the throttle and it worked. Amazing!

mark5 - Thank you so much for taking the time to help. I was temped to go for my first ride now but will need to wait until morning. I am truly excited for my first ride tomorrow, like a kid on Christmas Eve.

Punx05 - Thanks for the suggestion of the Dremel. I don't have a Dremel but will probably need to invest in one to grind a bigger hole for the torque arm.