999zip999
100 TW
Are you in the usa ?
Present State of Batteries, Best Lifetime Value?
- Thread starter bobotic
- Start date
Lurkin
100 kW
bobotic said:
I purchased a 18650 dolphin pack from Em3ev for my first ebike. No, it definitely wasn't the cheapest option or cheaper than the same capacity of lipo. Theres a tendency to focus on price as the key determinant.
But a nice, premade, functional container with BMS and charger supplied... it was easy and there was no fires, issues... Definitely easier than playing the lipo game.
Each to their own, but that's why I was asking how long it would take to save the difference.
wesnewell
100 GW
If you're in the US, order from the one of the HK USA warehouses and shipping will be ~$35. 12s is perfect for a controller with an lvc of 40-42V. I assume you already have a 6s charger.
That looks pretty good, and trust me if I had $850 to spend I would probably buy a pair and probably would have spent a little more to get LifePo since it seems like the best money in the long run, especially if you run at least 20ah. I came to the conclusion that I couldn't afford it now and it would probably be smart to start off without breaking the bank in case we don't use these bikes as much as I expect and hope. From what I understand people won't buy used batteries for near retail price even if they claim they are slightly used. I would take your setup for sure at the price I paid for what I went with, unfortunately it was double what I spent and still made cringe because I am in "savings mode" at the moment.
To be honest I didn't think batteries would be delivered from China so quickly either given the times some retailers quoted me, but from the reviews somehow they are getting them delivered by air and thought Li via air was a no-no now which = long delivery times. At any rate, I've had my share of hassles and scams (and some really good experiences to be fair) with AliExpress that it didn't cross my mind to look there this go around. It would have just set back my decision making anyways with more conflicting thoughts. =)
LiPo was the right decision for me though regardless.I don't have a need for 20ah, I only need the equivalent of 10-15 miles (I want to go twenty and already pedal between 5 and 10 miles) so 10ah should do it with modest pedaling. I didn't think a 10ah Li-Ion would cut it after searching specifically on that because it would be taxed because it doesn't have the appropriate discharge rate for my motor at that capacitance from best I understood it.
But to be fair for apples and apples according to the reviewer who tested the capacitance on that pack it is actually 17ah, whereas the those on here who did the same with those LiPo packs actually had beyond the rated capacitance (16.8ah), so I wouldn't put them too far apart on capacity. I thought a BMS was a must have because it sounded great and after spending the better part of day learning about them it seemed unnecessary if you are keeping tabs on your battery health and some having issues from them made me weary. Case and key is nice for sure. If I hadn't already planned out case and mount that I want to create (I do a lot of welding and machining) I would be trying to pick one up standalone. Weight seems within a couple pounds. What I like best about that solution is being able to just plug it in like anything else.
For a charger was a lucky enough to make a trade tonight for some spare gear for a 400W Mega 6S balancing charger... no fires necessary, will charge both bikes in about 2 hours and change. LVC should be 42v (will test) so over discharge should be impossible on a healthy pack but I bought some of the $2 balance meters so I can watch the cell health while riding. I ordered a 6S x 6 parallel board and XT90 plugs. A couple XT90 to series harnesses...
All in was about $195 per bike which was still about $200 more than I was planning on spending to power these (SLA) but still The nice thing about this setup is if I want to go on a long solo ride I can just add the other 10ah to mine for 20ah. Or, if we find out we do want more range instead of having to spend a ton more money I can just add buy some more 6S packs when they go on sale and add to them mix.
To be honest I didn't think batteries would be delivered from China so quickly either given the times some retailers quoted me, but from the reviews somehow they are getting them delivered by air and thought Li via air was a no-no now which = long delivery times. At any rate, I've had my share of hassles and scams (and some really good experiences to be fair) with AliExpress that it didn't cross my mind to look there this go around. It would have just set back my decision making anyways with more conflicting thoughts. =)
LiPo was the right decision for me though regardless.I don't have a need for 20ah, I only need the equivalent of 10-15 miles (I want to go twenty and already pedal between 5 and 10 miles) so 10ah should do it with modest pedaling. I didn't think a 10ah Li-Ion would cut it after searching specifically on that because it would be taxed because it doesn't have the appropriate discharge rate for my motor at that capacitance from best I understood it.
But to be fair for apples and apples according to the reviewer who tested the capacitance on that pack it is actually 17ah, whereas the those on here who did the same with those LiPo packs actually had beyond the rated capacitance (16.8ah), so I wouldn't put them too far apart on capacity. I thought a BMS was a must have because it sounded great and after spending the better part of day learning about them it seemed unnecessary if you are keeping tabs on your battery health and some having issues from them made me weary. Case and key is nice for sure. If I hadn't already planned out case and mount that I want to create (I do a lot of welding and machining) I would be trying to pick one up standalone. Weight seems within a couple pounds. What I like best about that solution is being able to just plug it in like anything else.
For a charger was a lucky enough to make a trade tonight for some spare gear for a 400W Mega 6S balancing charger... no fires necessary, will charge both bikes in about 2 hours and change. LVC should be 42v (will test) so over discharge should be impossible on a healthy pack but I bought some of the $2 balance meters so I can watch the cell health while riding. I ordered a 6S x 6 parallel board and XT90 plugs. A couple XT90 to series harnesses...
All in was about $195 per bike which was still about $200 more than I was planning on spending to power these (SLA) but still The nice thing about this setup is if I want to go on a long solo ride I can just add the other 10ah to mine for 20ah. Or, if we find out we do want more range instead of having to spend a ton more money I can just add buy some more 6S packs when they go on sale and add to them mix.
BTW... The only argument against Lipo I seemed to found, or at least most prominent, is "you'll burn your house down" which from my perspective is akin to "you'll shoot your eye out kid" coming from the RC space. Way back when Lipo and electric for that matter was just becoming more and more popular in RC planes there was that same sentiment going around, and it wasn't from anyone who actually using Lipo, it was everyone who wasn't. I admit that I probably repeated the same sentiment before I adopted electric planes and stopped flying a gasser.
But it was not uncommon for a guy with a lit cigarette in hand to be filling a tank with nitro fuel saying "those lipos are dangerous stuff!", or even driving around with gallon jugs of it sloshing around the back seat and puffing away saying the same thing. Nowadays LiPo in planes so common I don't ever hear anyone talk about LiPos being dangerous because it really is no more dangerous than that gas is when you are using common sense. I mean most still take precautions like fireproof bags, and non-flammable surfaces where charging or burn boxes and stuff, but that is more out of the perceptions and habits from old than because fires are sprouting up left and right. In all my time I've never personally met someone who had a pack catch on fire on them and that is a lot LiPo packs accounted for.
But maybe there is a difference between the size of the packs and the lack monitoring that might make it more prevalent in bike use. How many of you on this forum had a LiPo pack catch fire on you using a quality balance charger? It would be interesting to get a relative idea on how common it is in the ebike space, particularly this space where it seems like the users probably know their Lipo better than the RC guys.
Edit: To be clear, I'm not suggesting Lipo's haven't caught fire and you don't need to disregard that they can, but just how many people who actually handle them properly have had fires. More among the realm of "unavoidable spontaneous combustion". For the record I charge all of my packs on a concrete slab in a shop that has 20 ft ceilings and nothing within 12 feet of them. When I charge larger packs (relative to RC) I cover them with a steel box. With these large ebike packs I will probably actually put them inside of our kiln while charging just for peace of mind since I have no idea what a flaming pack of that size would look like despite not expecting it. What I want to get an idea is if this is a common occurence to have ebike lipo fires on this forum. If so, it would suggest they are more prone to being a hazard than I realized because I would assume most on here handle them with care.
But it was not uncommon for a guy with a lit cigarette in hand to be filling a tank with nitro fuel saying "those lipos are dangerous stuff!", or even driving around with gallon jugs of it sloshing around the back seat and puffing away saying the same thing. Nowadays LiPo in planes so common I don't ever hear anyone talk about LiPos being dangerous because it really is no more dangerous than that gas is when you are using common sense. I mean most still take precautions like fireproof bags, and non-flammable surfaces where charging or burn boxes and stuff, but that is more out of the perceptions and habits from old than because fires are sprouting up left and right. In all my time I've never personally met someone who had a pack catch on fire on them and that is a lot LiPo packs accounted for.
But maybe there is a difference between the size of the packs and the lack monitoring that might make it more prevalent in bike use. How many of you on this forum had a LiPo pack catch fire on you using a quality balance charger? It would be interesting to get a relative idea on how common it is in the ebike space, particularly this space where it seems like the users probably know their Lipo better than the RC guys.
Edit: To be clear, I'm not suggesting Lipo's haven't caught fire and you don't need to disregard that they can, but just how many people who actually handle them properly have had fires. More among the realm of "unavoidable spontaneous combustion". For the record I charge all of my packs on a concrete slab in a shop that has 20 ft ceilings and nothing within 12 feet of them. When I charge larger packs (relative to RC) I cover them with a steel box. With these large ebike packs I will probably actually put them inside of our kiln while charging just for peace of mind since I have no idea what a flaming pack of that size would look like despite not expecting it. What I want to get an idea is if this is a common occurence to have ebike lipo fires on this forum. If so, it would suggest they are more prone to being a hazard than I realized because I would assume most on here handle them with care.
BB guns should be shot with safety glasses. I know because as a kid, I shot one at a wall and it came back and hit be on the very top of my nose right between my eyes. I was not hurt, but 1/2 an inch to the right or left and it would have hit my eye. I also had a rifle explode when shooting name-brand ammo. The company knew that the batch was over-charged, but evidently not enough to recall it. They did replace the rifle. I was wearing safety glasses, but they got fragged - so I know that fragments went to my eye area.
LiPos need to be charged in a bunker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gobFcNzGG9I
If you want to remove your batteries each time you charge them and put them in a fire-proof area, then they seem safe enough. Personally I would rather just plug in my bike in the garage rather than take out batteries after each ride.
Also note that if they do catch on fire, even in a cinder-block or metal can in your garage, the smoke will still ruin your home and cover it with toxic Cobalt residue. If you don't need the high-C rate they can provide, I don't see the point of using them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF9fhlr9S5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiRR3GbbR8k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3qGfocIOgM
LiPos need to be charged in a bunker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gobFcNzGG9I
If you want to remove your batteries each time you charge them and put them in a fire-proof area, then they seem safe enough. Personally I would rather just plug in my bike in the garage rather than take out batteries after each ride.
Also note that if they do catch on fire, even in a cinder-block or metal can in your garage, the smoke will still ruin your home and cover it with toxic Cobalt residue. If you don't need the high-C rate they can provide, I don't see the point of using them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF9fhlr9S5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiRR3GbbR8k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3qGfocIOgM
999zip999
100 TW
An old free barbeque makes a great safe charging station. Safe and sane.
At least you have a lot of lipo experience.
Last month a 12yr. boy set the garage on fire. Yes hobby lipo.
At least you have a lot of lipo experience.
Last month a 12yr. boy set the garage on fire. Yes hobby lipo.
LyonNightroad
100 W
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
- Messages
- 105
rsilvers said:
Would be helpful if they actually told you what cells they use.
In terms of watt hours per dollar and per pound or kg I dont think you can beat the HK 16 amp hour 22.2 volt lipos for $120 right now. But these batteries are not for the "set it and forget it crowd"
Many of us already have much experience with these batteries from the RC hobby and have high powered chargers etc.
Don't get me wrong, I have my own handbuilt 12p14s triangle pack in my bike and I love it but I also love having these lightweight small footprint LiPos as my 'range extenders'. Any time I go on a long trip I bring the LiPos with to eliminate any range anxiety, and allow me to gun it all the way home if I want to. They are so small and light.
About LiFePO4. I used to think of them as being awesome, but when I realized that LiCo behaves almost exactly the same (3x the cycles, 3x less explosive, etc.) when you use only 30% of the capacity I fell out of love.
I may get one of those HK 16Ah 22.2 volt LiPo for my old ExKate skateboard.
As for the cells in mine, it would be easy enough just to message them and ask.
As for range anxiety - I don't have it because the CA measured my pack at 823 watt hours. I know if I pedal and limit my watts to 150, then I use 7.5Wh per mile. I know if I don't pedal and go fast, then I use 21Wh per mile. All I have to do is see how many watt hours I went so far on this charge, subtract it from 823, and then divide by how many Wh I am using per mile. I then know my remaining range. The CA should do that calculation for me.
As for the cells in mine, it would be easy enough just to message them and ask.
As for range anxiety - I don't have it because the CA measured my pack at 823 watt hours. I know if I pedal and limit my watts to 150, then I use 7.5Wh per mile. I know if I don't pedal and go fast, then I use 21Wh per mile. All I have to do is see how many watt hours I went so far on this charge, subtract it from 823, and then divide by how many Wh I am using per mile. I then know my remaining range. The CA should do that calculation for me.
MitchJi
10 MW
Hi,
Best quality, and least expensive? Check my signature.
Best quality, and least expensive? Check my signature.
4LivesPerGallon
1 kW
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2015
- Messages
- 305
Imo the best battery/charger is one that won't burn down your house or garage. Yup, this has happened, and you only need one faulty or intermittent fault in a charge cycle to lose everything.
Imo, under "Lithium" the chemistry should be LIFEPO4 and the charger should be the most reliable one at **any** price. However, chargers, balancing, and BMS electronics are iffy except for a Tesla car.
If you don't want BMS hassles and battery-balancing, and only have short trips, imo go for Hawker Genesis --- however, they **require** a minimum 1C charger, which in our case was a multi-type marine battery charger, $300 for a 48V ebike.
Experience, from 1999: The bad/faulty/out of spec. charger kills more batteries than Battery University says.
Imo, under "Lithium" the chemistry should be LIFEPO4 and the charger should be the most reliable one at **any** price. However, chargers, balancing, and BMS electronics are iffy except for a Tesla car.
If you don't want BMS hassles and battery-balancing, and only have short trips, imo go for Hawker Genesis --- however, they **require** a minimum 1C charger, which in our case was a multi-type marine battery charger, $300 for a 48V ebike.
Experience, from 1999: The bad/faulty/out of spec. charger kills more batteries than Battery University says.
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