Put the Knife Down

Icewrench

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816
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Seattle Wa USA
An unjustified shooting, no charges filed cops have lots of leeway, but he did quit his job.
Hope that his leo certification is pulled.

Just watch the first 30 seconds or so.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX8RD4C8WFU&feature=related
 
Icewrench said:
An unjustified shooting, no charges filed cops have lots of leeway, but he did quit his job.
Hope that his leo certification is pulled.

Just watch the first 30 seconds or so.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX8RD4C8WFU&feature=related

Jeez...... It's scary stuff like this that makes me thankful that our police don't normally carry firearms.

What makes this even more unsettling is that it doesn't look as if the killer will get treated as a murderer, which smacks of extreme injustice.

I realise that law enforcement officers frequently have to make quick judgement calls, but the evidence in that video doesn't seem to indicate that killing someone was an appropriate response to the perceived threat. Had that happened here then I'd be in no doubt that the police officer would have been held in custody pending a charge of murder, and if found guilty would have a mandatory life sentence. We don't differentiate between various degrees of murder here - if you intentionally shoot someone you get life, the only exception would be for a firearms trained police officer who was acting under direct orders, or found himself in circumstances where discharging a weapon was the only reasonable alternative to allowing someone to cause death or injury to others.

Jeremy
 
The video doesn't really show anything. But if what seemingly happened, did happen, then this guy is mentally unstable (the cop). Certainly unstable people shouldn't have weapons or be a cop. Seems like he had an inferiority complex, or the desire to use his "toy". The woman crossing the street will most certainly be on the witness stand as a witness as to the unseen details.
 
Notice the woman's reactions? Not even startled much, and never missed a step. Didn't speed up, or slow down, didn't duck and cover. Speaks volumes.
 
Those were the same cops I had to deal with street racing in that area for ~12 years.


They would do some amazingly dumb things to break up the street races. lol We get setup in some vacant industrial area, position spotters to warn of incoming traffic (though at 2am traffic in the right places would be like 1 truck per hour) so racing can stop etc. Minimal risk to the public, surely less risk to the public than a single drunk SUV driver in traffic poses (which no-doubt there are always hundreds of in Seattle at night).

The police would dispatch an absurd amount of resources to break this up. A helicopter. 20+ patrol cars. Even SWAT armored cars! (not kidding!) The helicopter flys over with a blinding spotlight and a loud speaker saying "Seattle Police, do not run! Seattle Police, do not run!" over and over.
But of course we run, because if you are a racer and you get pulled over, they like to "make examples", so the penalty between just getting a racing violation and getting an eluding + racing violation is close enough that it doesn't make sense not to roll the dice and run.

So, now you have 50+ cars and 20+ cop cars all taking off in every direction as fast as they can, and since we were all ready at the least populated area, it means you can only go towards more populated areas, only this time you don't have spotters, and you can't wait for it to be clear and verified by spotters that no traffic is coming etc, as you have a cop chasing you who will PIT you (ramming your car to make it crash) if he can catch up to you, because somehow a cop can justify that PIT'ing your car in public traffic, making it spin and wreck into whatever it happens to hit is somehow a safer better option for the public.

So, you take 2 cars running at a time with spotters in a good location. You add police, and an absurd amount of them (who could be doing things to help public safety.) Now you have 50 cars jetting away dangerously who can't stop or slow down (cop chasing them) in all directions to all different public streets etc.
Then, the conclusion to this extreme added public danger event, is once in a while they actually catch somebody, and make a penalty that ruins their job/income/money/family etc.


The Seattle police chief is crooked. A ton of Seattle cops are crooked (I've seen it personally).
The Tacoma police chief (which is the big city a little south of Seattle) who was buddies with the Seattle police chief was soooo crooked, when he got caught in a situation where cops were selling drugs confiscated from the evidence room, he took the grown-up way out of the situation, by going for a little car ride with his family, then shooting his wife in the head and himself. That's the police chief's example he set.


http://www.seattlepi.com/local/119458_chief26ww.html
 
Quite a contrast to things over here. Apart from the major difference that our police aren't normally armed, the response to any car chase here that heads into an urban area where collateral damage or injury might result is often to just break off the ground chase on grounds on public safety. They'll try and get a helo up and get cars to set up stingers ahead of the chased car if they can, but often the police chase cars or bikes will be ordered to drop back to not risk pushing the chased car into doing something even more dangerous.

Having watched the video of that shooting again, I'm puzzled by the reaction of the woman, as Bigmoose pointed out. Are events like this so normal as to not cause someone to react? It's pretty clear that she didn't seem to think that there was any threat or risk to herself, which makes me wonder what the heck went on off camera.

Even if the police officer, or another member of the public, was under extreme threat from the man with the knife, why did he discharge 5 rounds? Our firearms guys here would probably discharge 1 or 2 rounds, any more could be seen as an overreaction and might lead to suspension, their actions being questioned and possible charges being brought against them. Our specialist firearms guys don't "shoot to disable", only because it's impractical; they always have to go for the biggest target, so a torso shot would be normal, with a good chance of killing the suspect.

Jeremy
 
Jeremy in LA people DON'T REACT to an ak47 ON FULL AUTO firing in the distance.

Cop won't face ANY charges. His quitting was probably because they wanted to give him a slap on the wrist and he chose to quit instead.

This cop STILL hasn't been charged with a crime - Kicked a man who was on all fours in the face. (He was recovering from a head injury)
[youtube]JbdareHU4Ik[/youtube]

Taserings are where the real abuses are at
[youtube]OiirafYNdGE[/youtube]
 
This thread reminds me of a Brendan Behan quote above the bar in a local pub - "I have never seen a situation so dismal that a policeman couldn't make it worse."
 
Jeremy, if you watch the video response from the original video, there is a different dash cam which shows more.
 
only1jake said:
Jeremy, if you watch the video response from the original video, there is a different dash cam which shows more.

Thank f**k I live on the other side of the globe, where stuff like this doesn't happen. That second video just shows how callous and completely brain-dead the police officers seem to be. What I want to know is how the f**k these guys sleep at night, especially that murderer Birk. Does this moronic bastard really think that murdering a half-deaf inebriated woodcarver, who happened to be carrying a three inch knife, was a justifiable homicide?

Jeremy
 
Being a former police officer for a large city in California, I've been in some tough decision making situations, and being a "Monday Morning Armchair Quarterback" is easy to point out the wrong, but I am going to do it anyway especially since I have experience!

When I first saw this footage on the news I could not believe the amount of shots that the ex-officer fired at the "suspect" with a knife, to me that was excessive. In a situation like this (person with a knife) I was trained to call for back-up, if the suspect advanced towards me then shoot to stop the threat, secure the suspect's weapon, handcuff, call for EMT and begin to administer first-aid. I was sickened while watching the footage from the second dashcam, the suspect was down, while I listened to the radio in the background EMT was not even requested yet, not even the dispatcher notified that EMT was summoned, 9 officers do a tactical (a weak one at that) approach while another is approaching from a wide angle on the right and another just bee-boppin behind them was one of the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen with law enforcement policy and procedure. Sure, I am all for being cautious, but c'mon, a weak tactical approach by officers on a suspect that had not been moving for minutes? Sure, a suspect with a weapon can advance on you in 15' causing injury before you can draw your firearm and fire to stop the threat, but he had cover behind the transformer box after he shot the "suspect".

Judgment, training and leadership is very much needed here along with a a better criteria for psychological testing. The city psychologist desperately needs to reevaluate his standards that he feels is best for the cities demographics for allowing candidates to become police officers. They want upstanding citizens that are squeekie clean, the only problem is, is that you get a 22 year old that still lives at home (due to the economy most likely) who has no life experience being thrown into real world situations that probably have them soiling themselves. Fear can be a good thing, if harnessed and used properly, but this ex-officer sure did not understand that at all, again probably due to very little life experience and poor training and poor judgment.

I do not know all the ins and outs of this, but what was the original call the ex-officer received or was he performing a pedestrian stop (his lights were on so I question his reason for being there)? From what I've heard on the news and read in the paper (for what they are worth), the gentleman that was shot was known in the community and was a 'regular' on the streets of Seattle. If this was a pedestrian stop, then why was this ex-officer not familiar with the people in the community? He obviously does not understand the value and importance of the concept of "community policing", but then again, so many agencies these days no longer teach that.

Here is a tid-bit of information too that I know of as far as training goes. I went to a training seminar on handling bank robberies put on by another agency, and we did some scenarios, and a lieutenant that was one of the trainers from the agency told me I was "doing it wrong, I need to keep my finger on the trigger when I have my firearm out". :shock: Anyone that has any experience with firearms and guns, been in the military, been properly trained knows that you "keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire". Even after I told him that what he was telling me was against my departments P&P and was not the way I was even taught in the Marines, he still told me I was wrong. Yeah, I almost wrote a novel for my course and instructor evaluation! These were/are the numbskulls that are training the officers and deputy sheriffs in Central Valley California, at least it was was 17 years ago, hopefully they changed the training, but from the demeanor, attitude and persona of some LE personnel, they most likely have only gotten worse. Case in point, the SPD.

Now I'll get off my soap box!
 
Problem is cops are trained to NEVER BACK DOWN, when clearly doing so would save lives.

There is a huge difference between,
"Hey nice knife can I see it?"
and
"PUT THE frocking KNIFE DOWN!!"

kinda reminds me of the old joke

BANG! BANG BANG!, freeze or I'll shoot. - - - - - - - - BANG!
 
Jumped up on my soap box again....

Icewrench said:
The Feds are having a look at the SPD.
Maybe we need another new chief and a new attitude.

I sure do hope there begins to be some type of accountability from all the things that have happened in the past recent months with SPD. A revamping of the entire department from the city attorney, city psychologist, senior officers, field training officers, etc needs to be done (IMHO), but unfortunately the cost and time to do that would not be 'justified' according to the cities and states budget. Such bureaucratic BS.

Lessss said:
Problem is cops are trained to NEVER BACK DOWN, when clearly doing so would save lives.

There is a huge difference between,
"Hey nice knife can I see it?"
and
"PUT THE frocking KNIFE DOWN!!"

kinda reminds me of the old joke

BANG! BANG BANG!, freeze or I'll shoot. - - - - - - - - BANG!

I was never trained to "NEVER BACK DOWN", but there are times when you shouldn't back down and when you should back down once again deals with life experience and judgment. I would NEVER say "Hey, nice knife can I see it?" that is just asinine in LE, but I agree Lessss, saying "PUT THE F***ING KNIFE DOWN!" is not the way to go at it either especially in this particular situation!

Just sickens me that no charges are filed, not even abuse of powers under color of authority or failure to follow P&P for excessive force, and the attitude of "I resigned from the department" makes it appear on the surface as being "okay", it is taken care of, from the cities point of view. Typical rotten government politics (at least in the US) at any level, "gotta save face to make sure that we don't look like we are in the wrong." This situation alone if brought to some type of trial for some type of crime would have hopefully forced new policy and procedures for the SPD which would be a step in the right direction for the future, but from my experience the all mighty dollar comes before the people, "if we admit that the officer was in the wrong, then we are admitting that our hiring process, selection process, training and leadership are wrong and we are open to a lawsuit". Disgusting.
 
As a kid I had a knife that was over the legal limit in length. Cop drove by and said exactly that. "Hey nice knife can i see it?" I said sure. He took it measured it and handed it back.

I had filed the tip down to be 3 mm under the limit.

something similar happened with my air rifle.

Unless the guy carrying the machete had broken the law(other than carrying a machete under his arm in public) that is exactly how the cop should have approached him. Pawnshop anyone?
 
This sort of incident is another good reason for us over here to maintain our policy of not giving ordinary police officers firearms. Our guys couldn't have over-reacted the way Birk did, even if they were young a relatively inexperienced, as they wouldn't have a firearm. They'd either have to call for back up, if they felt the situation would escalate and become life threatening, or they'd use non-lethal restraint techniques if they needed to restrain the suspect.

Our unarmed police routinely tackle people armed with knives without using firearms, just using telescopic batons, incapacitant sprays or in extreme cases a taser. It would not be normal practice here to call in a firearms unit (which could take time to get to the incident as we don't have many of them) for a knife-related incident unless the it was threatening to escalate in to one that couldn't be handled by unarmed officers, such as a hostage situation. It is routine here for most officers to wear stab vests when on duty, because they will routinely get up close and personal with violent offenders - they don't have the option of standing back and shooting someone.

So far I've not read anything to suggest that the suspect had committed a serious offence (other than carrying a knife in a public place, if that is a serious offence), or that he was acting in a way that required restraint or arrest, let alone the use of lethal force. Perhaps it's the contrast between the way that this incident was handled and the way our own police operate that makes it all the more shocking from my perspective.

Jeremy
 
I just find it a plain stupid thing the cop had done. Even if he was threatened, why shoot him, he has a perfectly good taser which paralyses the poor guy.

And the thing is, it's not like this is a one off, it's amazing as to how many other similar incidents there have been, 'accidental' shootings.

I'm glad that in the UK the aren't armed with guns, they don't need to be, they have adequate training.
When I lived in Spain, there were two different police forces. The 'local police' and the 'Civil Police' . Policia Local and Guardia Civil.
Local police dealt with the more minor offences while the guardia civil dealt with the seriuous offences and had guns.

In NZ here, police aren't armed with guns and there hasn't been any incidents like this. I think that there should be a special set of rules when it comes to a police officer using their gun/weapon with deadly force.

Just my thoughts.
 
Same here for our firearms officers. If they fire a weapon they will pretty much automatically be subject to an independent internal investigation, maybe even a a full public enquiry or court case. More often than not officers who discharge a weapon are suspended from duty until the outcome of an internal investigation is complete. The whole process is intended to ensure that the use of deadly force is absolutely a measure of last resort.

Jeremy
 
Lots of cops doing good things. Many years ago I was working in a restaurant. Guy came in with a gun. He was complaining about a taco and wanted to shoot the person who made it. I dialed 0 and pulled the phone behind a refrigerator. Phone had a long cord. This was before cell phones. Girl on the phone was very smart. She said where is the guy with the gun? I said by the front door. She asked how many doors were in the building? I told her about the back door. She told me to tell everyone to go out the back door. 2 police men arrived and spent quite a while yelling at the guy with the gun to DROP THE GUN. They were finally able to wrestle him to the ground. Like a idiot I watched all this from inside the restaurant. Bad place to be if there was shooting going on. This was before we had Cop shows on TV. Nobody shot nobody and the police took the bad guy away. We never did find out what was the problem with the taco?
 
Jeremy Harris said:
Same here for our firearms officers. If they fire a weapon they will pretty much automatically be subject to an independent internal investigation, maybe even a a full public enquiry or court case. More often than not officers who discharge a weapon are suspended from duty until the outcome of an internal investigation is complete. The whole process is intended to ensure that the use of deadly force is absolutely a measure of last resort.

Jeremy

Excellent point Jeremy, they have internal investigations here too, the only problem is, is that although they claim to be independent, the agency still oversees the investigation.......it's still just a facade......no checks and balance at all, and if there is, it is very biased IMHO.

Yeah, the whole suspended from duty thing happens here too, I just remember the younger, newer officers making jokes about being involved in a shooting by saying stupid things like, "I need a vacation". Anyone that has been unfortunate enough to actually have to make a decision of taking a persons life would never even joke about something like that. I am just so glad that I retired from LE, back in the day we resorted to our communication skills, then brute strength, then escalation of force, then deadly force (which was very very rare even for a large city at the time), not like the cowboys now-a-days are doing, and the majority of the time they are getting away with it!

marty said:
Lots of cops doing good things....

There are a lot that do a great job, unfortunate that like with any job and profession there is always going to be that 10% that messes it up for everyone!
 
JimmieD said:
Excellent point Jeremy, they have internal investigations here too, the only problem is, is that although they claim to be independent, the agency still oversees the investigation.......it's still just a facade......no checks and balance at all, and if there is, it is very biased IMHO.

Here an investigation will be overseen by an independent police authority. The authorities include volunteers from the general public who's role is to ensure that the police always act in the public interest. Independent police authorities oversee pretty much all police activity, not just their response to incidents, and hold police forces to account when required. Over and above that level of direct, local, public oversight, we also have an Independent Police Complaints Commission that are charged with independently investigating any complaint regarding the performance or behaviour of any police officer and making those findings public, or taking action if it's determined that a criminal act has taken place.

These measures don't prevent the police killing innocent people, but the incidence of this is very low. I think we've probably only had two or three innocent people killed by police officers in the past ten or twenty years, in the whole country. I'm guessing that there may be one or two incidents a year where the police kill people in the course of their duty. They are rare enough events that they tend to dominate our national news for days on end when they occur.

How does our police "shooting rate" of maybe 1 or 2 people a year out of a total population of around 56 million compare to the US, I wonder?

Jeremy
 
How does our police "shooting rate" of maybe 1 or 2 people a year out of a total population of around 56 million compare to the US, I wonder?

beats me tried several searches and the only things I'm finding are cops are killed stories.

Then again it's not really surprising, the US networks pretty much make sure that they have a pro cop propaganda show on the air every season.


http://www.bcrevolution.ca/us_killer_cops.htm
1fspeechzone_tb.jpg



Cops Admit To Planting Marijuana on 92 Year Old Woman Killed in Botched Drug Raid
Associated Press | April 30, 2007 - Harry R. Weber
 
Jeremy Harris said:
How does our police "shooting rate" of maybe 1 or 2 people a year out of a total population of around 56 million compare to the US, I wonder?

Jeremy

Found these tid-bits of info from another site I am a member of:
"We are forced to try to accomplish too much in too little training time....results in a disproportionate amount of time spent with scenarios in which officers need to pull the trigger.... creates an emphasis on a 'muzzle-heavy' approach and the over-emphasis on the handgun as a problem-solving tool."

"On the street, this contributes to the problem of officers putting themselves in untenable situations tactically and then feeling compelled in often unclear circumstances to shoot."

"There's little resemblance between what we train officers for and what they actually encounter on the street," he told Force Science News recently. "There are glaring deficiencies in the way cops are prepared for what turn out to be fairly typical circumstances in gunfights."

"Most don't compile detailed data on their shootings, fearing in some cases (perhaps rightly) that it would be misinterpreted and misused by the media and "agenda activists" if available. Of the few departments that do collect deadly force information, "even fewer freely share it," Aveni claims. If they don't outright suppress it, they tend to present it in bare-bones, "sterilized table formats" that have no standardized consistency and that "make detailed analysis difficult." Aveni observes: "The devil is in the details, and the details of police shootings have always been lost."

and for comparison:

"After refusals to cooperate by a variety of agencies, he finally was able to secure 350 investigative narratives of officer-involved shootings in Los Angeles County, CA. These concerned incidents experienced primarily by L.A. County Sheriff's deputies, plus cases investigated by LASD for smaller municipal agencies, across a 5-year period."

LA County population estimate 2009: 9,848,011 http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/06037.html so according to what this guy was able to secure, about 70 per year for a population of 9.8 million vs the country that invented and is the base model for modern day policing 1-2 per year for a population of 56 million (from the "stats" that Jeremy provided above). Not even worth figuring the arithmetic out on this, it is just so disgustingly obvious that it is not even worth comparing!

Excerpts found here: http://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...in-the-details-of-officer-involved-shootings/ article written in 2005, yet a large city like SPD still has not gotten onboard with this viewpoint?

Thanks Lessss for that link, that video on there of tasers is classic! Shows the inane and ignorant approach to their weapons and the use of them! They just assume that every taser puts out the same exact voltage every singe time?!?!?! They should ask at a minimum some of the folks here on ES who are somewhat experienced with electricity and ask what can happen....KFF anyone?!?!?!
 
That's a pretty shocking comparison, even if the data are off by a bit. It looks like the risk of getting shot and killed by a UK police firearms officer in any year is probably around around 1 in 23 million, whereas the risk of the same happening in LA County is around 1 in 140,000. In blunt terms I guess that means that I would be about 164 times more likely to be shot and killed by a police officer in LA County than I would here in the UK.

I suppose we need to factor in the differences in gun law between our countries. Here in the UK gun ownership is heavily restricted and regulated and ordinary members of the public are not allowed to carry guns on their person, even if they have a license. Unfortunately that doesn't restrict gun crime, as guns are relatively cheap and easy to buy illegally, so we have a fair number of gang and drug related shootings in our big cities, plus a significant incidence of armed robbery. The major difference between LA County and the UK may be that police there might routinely suspect that anyone they stop could be carrying a weapon, which is quite different from over here, where they might only suspect someone to have a weapon if there's some other evidence to suggest it.

Even so, I'm not sure that the difference in gun law is enough to explain the large apparent difference in the police shooting incidents.

Jeremy
 
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