Radio Active Trike Planning

[Alan B]

A friend of mine built a very special Trike setup with the capability to operate High Frequency Ham Radio from it when stationary. It doesn't have electric assist, though I've suggested it and Budd is considering it when he has trouble pedaling. It is fairly flat where he is, and he's not going far so it hasn't been a problem for him yet, at age 75.

So here is Budd's Trike with Trailer. He doesn't bother with the trailer (with amplifier) when radio propagation conditions are good, and he runs 100 watts on the upper HF bands with a mobile radio via a remote head with just the trike. When propagation is poor he can drag the trailer along and increase the RF power to 500 watts using the amplifier and battery on the trailer.

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I've been thinking for awhile about doing my own Radio Active Trike. I would rather use a Tadpole that has plenty of room under the seat for a tray to carry batteries and radio equipment (and room behind the seat), and put the antenna on a mount above the rear wheel. Riding near the salt water or up to a hilltop gives the signal a big boost and a well chosen location can get away from the RF noise so it can help both transmission and reception and increase range. A trike is nice for the weight carrying capacity and the comfort of sitting on a seat. A sunshade would be nice also.

There is likely to be interference from the ebike motor, so best HF radio operating will be when the ebike motor is off, and the larger antennas will be put away when in motion, so stopping and setting up the antenna may be necessary for best radio effect. For VHF/UHF FM operation the antenna is small and the controller noise should not be a factor, so operating in motion should be possible. APRS (amateur radio location service) is also VHF so could be used when you want to share your location with others which is often useful in event support operations.

I've looked at a few trikes, and one that looks like it has a lot of potential for this project is the TerraTrike Rambler. Three hundred pound load capacity, lots of room under the straight boom and seat as well as behind the seat, room for a rear rack, very adjustable, not too expensive, easy to get into and out of, etc. I've never ridden one, I need to do a test drive before any decisions.

The goal here is not to go particularly fast, but to carry a bunch of equipment and facilitate operating from some good locations that might not be accessible to a vehicle. Not much sense using gas drive around just to make a few radio contacts, anyway. But to add that to a get some fresh air and exercise on a trip would be great. This would also be good for supporting bicycle rides or other public events which Amateur Radio groups are often called on to help with.

There are a lot of nice rides around here, it would be great to do early morning rides in good weather and add some interest besides taking photos, one could stop and talk to some stations in Australia or Japan while sitting in comfort on the trike. Seems like a good retirement hobby - combine Ham Radio and Electric Biking.

So I'd like to get comments and suggestions on the trike and motor selection that would be good for this project, and see what we can figure out before the $ start flowing.

Thanks in advance for your comments and feedback.

 

[Alan B]

reserved for future use

 

[StudEbiker]

Interesting idea. I think I would be more inclined to put the whole radio setup on a trailer though and just pull it behind your Bike E when needed and leave the radio at home during other times. However, I can understand the appeal of wanting to tackle a new project though. :wink:

 

[Alan B]

Interesting idea. I think I would be more inclined to put the whole radio setup on a trailer though and just pull it behind your Bike E when needed and leave the radio at home during other times. However, I can understand the appeal of wanting to tackle a new project though. :wink:

That's an interesting idea too. I like that suggestion. A different but similar project. One of these days I will pick up a used trailer from Craigslist and see what can be done with it.

There is a lot of stuff that has to go on the bike to operate the radio, but it could be modular and removable. The biggest problem is the HF the antenna may need more support than the trailer would provide, though that depends on the trailer of course. Budd was pushing his Buddipole dipole up about 20 feet, that requires some mass and footprint below it, which the bike would be better than the trailer for.

The radio, antenna and control head on the Trike can be removed and left at home, just leaving the cabling and some mounts behind, so the Trike isn't totally committed to the radio.

 

[dnmun]

i would first rethink the footprint and requirements. you have a clean slate so it is best to think like that imo.

what is the requirement for the dipole? are you restricted in the type of antenna you use? would a wire suspended between two insulation spools at each end and with center feed work instead of this dipole he is using?

if so , why not run two fiberglass wand whips up from the two front suspension bearing mounts forward of the trike, triangulated with the insulating spool as the anchor at the top, and from the rear seat stays run two other fiberglass wands behind the trike far enuff out to provide the length for i guess what has to be a 1/4 wave antenna or is it 1/2 wave? i don't know this stuff.

so then your coax could run up from around the position of the center of the trike, and the weight of the coax could be supported by a fifth wand mounted to the central axis somewhere and clear the chains and legs. that would reduce the strain developed on the end of the wands in supporting the weight of the antenna so it could be minimized.

create a storage box for lifepo4 pack and receiver and mount them under the frame. avoid a trailer altogether.

your whips could be as tall as could be developed and used in city traffic and it would provide more visibility in use if there were streamers hanging from the wands, and flashing multicolored christmas tree lights too.

 

[Alan B]

Exactly. This is a fairly clean slate start. I have radio and antenna equipment, but not the trike or trailer or motor, controller, battery, etc. A good opportunity to evaluate alternatives.

I have a lot of Buddipole (and other) antenna parts and various radio gear, but I wasn't planning to restrict myself to that antenna. It would be a platform for experimenting with antennas among other things. I have actually experimented with fiberglass pole supported wires, though a trike is a bit short for a half wave dipole on 20 meters, which is a 10 meter long dipole. The fiberglass poles get a bit unwieldy at that level, though it is possible.

I do plan to avoid the trailer with the trike, I don't think that is necessary for my goals.

What Budd was using in a recent demonstration video was a Buddipole setup for 17 or 20 meters that was fullsize (which is half a wavelength, so 17/2 or 20/2 meters long). This was important since he was running more power than the Buddipole coils are rated for. Normally the Buddipole uses coils to shorten the antenna on the lower frequencies, making it more compact.

One radio I have that would be interesting to use is a Kenwood TS480HX which is already 200 watts without needing a separate amplifier. The Buddipole coils can handle that power level. In terms of VHF/UHF this Kenwood doesn't cover those bands, so a separate radio would be required if those frequencies were needed. Alternately a rig like the Icom 7000 could be used that covers all the bands, at lower power since it is "only" a 100 watt rig. I've got a few rigs to play with already on hand, so that isn't much of an issue. The single rig would save some space which could be helpful.

Another thing to think about is where to mount the rig and batteries, there is room behind the seat, and the height of the Rambler lends itself to an underseat tray. Both the radios, their battery, and the bike battery need to be mounted somewhere.

Another antenna type which is well suited for a trike is a motorized multiband tunable vertical, such as a Tarheel. The Buddipole components can also be reconfigured into a vertical. Of course the venerable Hamstick type fiberglass verticals are also very convenient. The verticals are particularly desirable when in the proximity of saltwater which enhances the signal by reducing ground losses, I've seen 10dB or more of gain from approaching saltwater with a vertical.

In terms of the discussion here on ES the trike and motor selection are probably more interesting, I have plenty of Ham Radio antennas and components to experiment with.

There are an increasing number of motors that take cassettes, I noticed that ebikes.ca has one from Nine Continents I think. This is a steel frame with 135mm dropouts and I want to maintain good gearing so 7-8 gears in the rear cluster. It would be nice to be able to use the higher quality cassette gearing with a compatible motor. I would want a 750W motor and 48 volts for good power. The trike will be fairly heavy, but I hope to keep it pedal-able.

I found a review of the TerraTrike Rambler with an E Bike Kit motor here:

http://electricbikereport.com/terratrike-rambler-with-e-bikekit-review-video/

 

[dnmun]

i figured vertical would be a problem because of overhead wires on the street. but antennas i do not know.

 

[Alan B]

The Antenna can be lowered while riding, but most streets are designed to handle 12 feet or so of vehicle height. It is a valid question for bicycle paths and back streets though. Generally mobile verticals use a coil to shorten them to make the height practical for vehicles. Putting up the larger antenna can be done at the "good spot", so it doesn't have to fit under the wires.

 

[Voltron]

I was just looking at a guys terra trike... with the way the back end is, it seemed flexy...really really flexy.

 

[Alan B]

Thanks for your comments. That's Interesting. The large diameter chrome moly steel isn't stiff enough? It doesn't have a lot of 3D structure, that's true.

I'm going to see if I can do a test drive soon. The Rambler is rated for 300 pounds of rider, so strength is adequate. Don't know about flex.

Most trikes are lower and there isn't much room for an underseat tray. And they generally don't have a lot of structure, though some are box beam instead of tubes.

 

[Voltron]

The way the rear stay is, with the struts for the seat being the only thing triangulating the back, was pretty floppy. He said it speed wobbled like crazy down hills too, with zero hands off tracking. Just some fyi, not knocking it or anything.

 

[Alan B]

I did see one fellow mention that he fine tuned the tie rod to get the handling to work right. If the wheels aren't aligned right it fights with itself and you. This seems to be a theme for a lot of the trikes, some better than others.

 

[Alan B]

The TerraTrike Rover has square section tubes and a 400 pound passenger rating (instead of 300), so it likely is stiffer.

One downside is about 30 pounds more bike weight.

Another downside of the Rover is only 8 speed gearing standard, though Utah Trikes has a 27 speed upgrade. Of course the only time the low gears come into play is when the electric motor is not working, but it is nice to have the option of pedaling without power.

 

[dogman dan]

If steel, weld on stiffeners. If alloy, bolt them on. The fork is not likely the problem, so start at the Y, and brace towards the front axles. That should reduce this side to side frame whip.

 

[Voltron]

I'm sure it's flexier than a stock one with the addition of the battery rack and motor weight back there....but it doesn't bode well for it being heavily equipped with stuff.

Re. stiffening bracing, maybe if he owned it already and was dealing with it.. but drilling and bolting and clamping and voiding the warranty on your brand new frame might steer one to just starting with a beefier setup.

 

[Alan B]

Are there suggestions for better frames?

 

[dnmun]

Are there suggestions for better frames?

i doubt if the frame is bending in these comments that people are making. it is more likely that there is some play in the rear bearings and the twisting of the wheel itself that caused these comments. i cannot imagine your radio and battery or the mast needed will overload the frame.

 

[docnjoj]

There are better trikes, but not for the price. Steintrikes have a frame system with the suspension for about 3 grand, but the complete trikes with full suspension are around 4400 USD shipped. Very comfortable ride and can carry 50 kilos on their rear racks. ST52 Mannismann steel (like chrome moly but German).

On the other hand your friends Lightfoot trike ain't cheap either. Also very high quality construction, like Steintrikes, but American.
otherDoc

 

[Voltron]

As the guy that was there lightly pushing on the battery rack and watching one side of the axle go up as the other went down and the seat supports changing the seat shape as the Y strut twisted, it wasn't loose wheel bearings doing it.

 

[Alan B]

Lightfoot Trikes is out of business.

 

[docnjoj]

Lightfoot Trikes is out of business.

Aw man! Another American company bites the dust! That is a shame as they made great trikes.
otherDoc

 

[Alan B]

This project has been calling me lately. It looks like a lot of fun, and it combines a couple of my interests. My back bothers me on long rides with the diamond frame bikes. I've got the recumbent BikeE, but for radio I need a more stable platform, and what could be better than sitting in a lounge chair with three wheels, overlooking a beautiful beach, bay or out from a hilltop, chatting with faraway stations around the world via the magic of radio. The radio gear will probably add 20 pounds to the bike, and trikes carry weight really well. I'd rather not try operating HF, moving or stationary, while on 2 wheels. I've done it with a motorcycle, but that was simple VHF. HF requires a bigger antenna and more attention to the equipment.

Realistically, I might do VHF while in motion, but HF will likely be stationary. The interference from the motor will likely be a problem for HF anyway. I will mount the radio(s) in a Pelican case that contains most everything but the antenna, so it will be easy to attach and detach the system from the bike. As well as secure it when necessary.

So I've been looking around again at the various recumbent trikes. Terratrike, Trident Trikes, others. Comfort, not speed. Stability. Ground clearance. Easy entry/exit.

How about Fat Tire Trikes?

Trident Trikes Terrain http://tridenttrikes.com/products/terrain/

Sunseeker Fat Tad CXS http://www.utahtrikes.com/PROD-11619824.html

Utah Trikes UTCustom Fat Tad Crawler http://www.utahtrikes.com/PROD-11619373.html

ICE Full Fat http://www.icetrikes.co/community/ice-news/ice-full-fat-26fs

Should I consider them? Or just put Big Apples on a regular trike?

Some of the locations may be at water's edge where sand/mud are common. Other locations will be hilltops where traction may be important. Yes, fat tires are less efficient, but the motor will help out there.

Mid drive or Hubmotor?

Should it be a BBSHD or a big MUXUS? Geared or DD? Or something else?

Lots of options out there. Fun to consider them.

 

[Alan B]

Nice windscreen and canopy ideas on this machine. And my favorite big hubmotor.

I'm still in the planning stages for this trike, but choosing the drive system is still quite up in the air. I'm torn between the usual choices - geared hubmotor, DD hubmotor, BIG hubmotor and Mid-drive. And choosing the trike itself.

In the mid-drive camp we have BBSHD, Cyclone, LightningRod, and other.

Here in the SF Bay Area we have an extensive set of 500 miles of trails under development:

http://baytrail.org/

It is about 3.5 miles to reach this extensive trail from home.

Now at this point it is not completely clear that ebikes are allowed, I don't see much about that, but the recent push of bike manufacturers in California lawmaking to get ebikes the status of normal bikes makes it likely that, in the long run some types of ebikes will be allowed there. Most likely type I and II, and a bit less likely type III. As a reminder for those not following the California Law, type I and II are 750W 20 mph Pedelec and Throttle, and type III is 750W 28 mph Pedelec.

So that means 750W 20 mph Pedelec/Throttle is the most likely.

Now the question is, with the weight of a trike carrying all the junk I'd like to put on it (big battery, sunshade, food and water, clothing, ham radio antenna and gear), and the trail friendly requirements, what would be the best motor?

A big hubmotor is quiet, heavy, and really calls for more than 750W. When limited to 750W the climbing ability is questionable, and we have hills. Lots of unused capacity here.

A geared hubmotor is quiet, light, visually minimal and makes good use of 750W. The climbing capacity with limited power is a little better than most DD hubmotors, but not as good as a mid drive.

A BBSHD is quiet, visually stealthy, and runs cool at 750W. It has no problems climbing and will lift a trike up a steep grade if the gearing is there. With the long chainline of a trike a multispeed front crank could be used to give even more range. The BBSHD can be used with a Rohloff internally geared rear hub (or similar) for a wide gearing range, easy shifting when stopped, and reduced problems with sand, grit and rust. This is saltwater and sand territory after all.

A Cyclone is slightly noisy, has more visual impact as well as whizzing parts, and has slightly more power capacity than we'll be able to use.

Other mid drives have whizzing parts and either reliability problems, more noise, or are visually unstealthy and probably aren't the way to go for a multi-use trail bike. I really like the looks of the LightningRods machines, just not here.

I have not made a decision yet, but the BBSHD seems to be a strong contender for situations where you want compatibility with a wide variety of people on the trail, and you need significant climbing capacity. I have the geared hubmotor on my recumbent BikeE and it is a nice setup, but this trike will weigh a lot more and need more climbing capacity.

 

[gman1971]

Cyclone 3000W and KMX trike...

Here I said it out loud for you.

G.

 

[Alan B]

Cyclone 3000W and KMX trike...

Here I said it out loud for you.

G.

Thanks.