Replacing my modded TSDZ2 with a new TSDZ2B.

[StressedOut]

Hello,

A little back story. I bought a second hand modded TSDZ2 for my delivery job, with what looks like the heat displacement mods, and firmware mods from the infamous Tongsheng GitHub page. After 4000km I needed to replace the blue gear, and in doing so didn't get a good reseal of the casing, and got moisture and grit inside the motor. So I'm going to buy a TSDZ2B instead and I'm struggling on how I should continue.

The TSDZ2 I have is using aluminium shims on one side, thermal pastes, and pads where shown on the GitHub.
It also came with a temperature sensor and internal fan, neither of which have actually ever worked. Im also using a 860c display. 48v 20ah battery.

I'm not using any customs heatsinks around the motor, as I've seen people creating.

I have a few questions.

If I install the proven heat displacement methods, and maybe a custom heatsink around the motor, I'd rather have a throttle, do I need to worry about installing a temperature sensor or internal fan?

I'm also not stoked on making a cut in the body to open the unused chamber. Simple fact that it seems that is where I lost the seal when replacing the gear. I'm assuming a fresh seal is necessary anytime you open that side of the motor, and I don't really feel like doing that. However, if that cutaway has proven to make a big difference then I'll do it. From what I understand the TSDZ2B has a better longevity and I wouldn't need to open it that much anyway. Some advice or encouragement on this issue would be appreciated.

I'm going to be installing a new drive train, and I currently have no brake or gear sensors, which I would like.
I'm using a SA internal 3 speed hub, with either 5, 6, or 7 speed cassette, friction/sis shifting. I want buy a Magura hs33 lever sensor with a red plug, and a gear sensor. It seems I only have yellow plugs on my bike.

I also have lights which I've never installed, but I would like to.

FYI, the only knowledge and experience I have with this stuff, is replacing the blue gear. All the firmware upgrades and soldering, wiring, I'm going to be doing for the first time. I'm ultimately a bit lost and terrified to start because money is super tight and I can't afford to make mistakes, and I'd love to just have someone in person that can show me what I need to buy and what to do so that it doesn't take out huge chunks of time a my finances. But I have no one local, or no anyone personally that works on these things.

Again whatever can be said helps.
Thank you.

 

[beemac]

Hello,

A little back story. I bought a second hand modded TSDZ2 for my delivery job, with what looks like the heat displacement mods, and firmware mods from the infamous Tongsheng GitHub page. After 4000km I needed to replace the blue gear, and in doing so didn't get a good reseal of the casing, and got moisture and grit inside the motor. So I'm going to buy a TSDZ2B instead and I'm struggling on how I should continue.

The TSDZ2 I have is using aluminium shims on one side, thermal pastes, and pads where shown on the GitHub.
It also came with a temperature sensor and internal fan, neither of which have actually ever worked. Im also using a 860c display. 48v 20ah battery.

I'm not using any customs heatsinks around the motor, as I've seen people creating.

I have a few questions.

If I install the proven heat displacement methods, and maybe a custom heatsink around the motor, I'd rather have a throttle, do I need to worry about installing a temperature sensor or internal fan?

I'm also not stoked on making a cut in the body to open the unused chamber. Simple fact that it seems that is where I lost the seal when replacing the gear. I'm assuming a fresh seal is necessary anytime you open that side of the motor, and I don't really feel like doing that. However, if that cutaway has proven to make a big difference then I'll do it. From what I understand the TSDZ2B has a better longevity and I wouldn't need to open it that much anyway. Some advice or encouragement on this issue would be appreciated.

I'm going to be installing a new drive train, and I currently have no brake or gear sensors, which I would like.
I'm using a SA internal 3 speed hub, with either 5, 6, or 7 speed cassette, friction/sis shifting. I want buy a Magura hs33 lever sensor with a red plug, and a gear sensor. It seems I only have yellow plugs on my bike.

I also have lights which I've never installed, but I would like to.

FYI, the only knowledge and experience I have with this stuff, is replacing the blue gear. All the firmware upgrades and soldering, wiring, I'm going to be doing for the first time. I'm ultimately a bit lost and terrified to start because money is super tight and I can't afford to make mistakes, and I'd love to just have someone in person that can show me what I need to buy and what to do so that it doesn't take out huge chunks of time a my finances. But I have no one local, or no anyone personally that works on these things.

Again whatever can be said helps.
Thank you.

What's broken about the existing tsdz2? Is it the motor itself or the gearing/casing - if the former they are cheap and easy enough to replace. Then you'd be able to keep all the existing mods you have and save some $$$. If the latter you might be able to find a case for sale for spares and repairs you could cannibalise.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/36355380...MI-IaUzca9_AIVwvftCh3IbwKEEAQYASABEgLwefD_BwE

As for whether you need a temp sensor - that's impossible to answer 100% based on the info provided. Depends on the ambient temp, how you ride, how you use the gears, whether you use a throttle, how hilly the area is, how long you ride for etc. etc. But the temp sensor (assuming you want the fw to respond to it - rather than have a separate temp display on your handlebars) uses the same ADC input as the throttle - so it's one or the other.

Personally if money is a key issue - i'd keep as many things that stop you from cooking the motor as possible - temp sensor being one of them! I feel the same way about brake sensors - I think they protect the nylon gear - but not everyone agrees so it's down to personal preference (and to some extent riding style again).

As for red/yellow plugs - I'm not sure colour is the key really, unless the cables are specifically for the tsdz2 (and tbh even if they are) - i'd always check pin outs using a multimeter as things change - and you certainly can't rely on the wire colours inside the cables to be consistent.

I've also not read much about the 2b being more reliable than the 2 - maybe it is - but also some of the parts are proprietary so potentially harder to repair - one way sprag clutch for instance is no longer a standard bearing afaik...

 

[StressedOut]

What's broken about the existing tsdz2? Is it the motor itself or the gearing/casing - if the former they are cheap and easy enough to replace. Then you'd be able to keep all the existing mods you have and save some $$$. If the latter you might be able to find a case for sale for spares and repairs you could cannibalise.

It got flooded. I haven't been able to diagnose the issue. I plan to in the future but I want a TSDZ2B anyway. I have the money for that. The previous user cut away part of the body on the drive train side, exposing an unused chamber that works as a heatsink. However, if you do this, you have to seal where you have cut the casing back to the motor. That custom seal initially broke causing the flood.

But the temp sensor (assuming you want the fw to respond to it - rather than have a separate temp display on your handlebars)

I don't know what you're trying to say here. What's fw?
I obviously don't use a throttle atm, though I'd like to, hence the question of whether I really need a temp sensor. I'm also unsure as to its function in regards to the firmware. Does the firmware limit the amount of power to the motor to stop it over heating once it detects a certain temp? does it allow the firmware to regulate the wattage? or is it just an emergency shutdown and diagnostic tool?
I guess with the original temp sensor not working, yeah, I have no real world experience as to how my motor acts and why I need to ask the hard question.

However, I can give some stats on how I ride.
I'm a delivery driver. I do 60 - 100 miles a half/full day. Smooth road riding, a small bit of bridal path gravel. And work 3 - 6 days a week. I average 15-20mph. But it's city riding. I stop at every delivery and my bike gets 5-10 minutes to cool down each time. I then, only ride for 5-15 minutes at a time. I live in Newcastle upon Tyne, no hill takes longer than a couple of minutes to climb, and most are less than 300m. Anything steep and noteworthy is less than 50m, and typically avoided. I'm 165lbs. I've been using the eMTB mode from the open source-firmware the most. I found myself in 2 assist when relaxing, using 200-250w on the motor matching my own wattage. Then when pacing, I would be in three using about 350-400 of the motor and 280-320 of my own. I'd get a couple more mph out of 4 assist but not much more. The steepest hill I take uses 500w-750w with the boost depending how I feel.

I'm very effecient with my gearing, or I like to think I am, I do whatever I can to reduce the amount of torque needed. However I feel the motor struggling to keep up with my gearing sometimes, and it's the biggest issue with my riding. I really feel I need the gear sensor.
At the moment Im riding with one 7 speed shifter, and a speed cassette. However I'm wanting to put an 3speed internal hub, with a 7speed cassette. And I don't know if the firmware or motor can handle two separate gear sensors, as well as a single brake sensor.

I've also not read much about the 2b being more reliable than the 2 - maybe it is - but also some of the parts are proprietary so potentially harder to repair - one way sprag clutch for instance is no longer a standard bearing afaik...

The white integrated gear on the 2B is plastic, not nylon and free, and can potentially withstand more torque, (90nm) there are also no more pin bearings which I believe disintegrated from the about of lateral movement through the axel.
My version of the 2 has the non-standard sprag clutch bearing, and I have two of those spare already. The 2B also has the free gear which is really useful for going slow and not wanting to get motor jerks, from no brake sensor or whatever. Less motor drag. They also improved some of the welds around the BB/torque sensor.

 

[beemac]

But the temp sensor (assuming you want the fw to respond to it - rather than have a separate temp display on your handlebars)

I don't know what you're trying to say here. What's fw?
I obviously don't use a throttle atm, though I'd like to, hence the question of whether I really need a temp sensor. I'm also unsure as to its function in regards to the firmware. Does the firmware limit the amount of power to the motor to stop it over heating once it detects a certain temp? does it allow the firmware to regulate the wattage? or is it just an emergency shutdown and diagnostic tool?
I guess with the original temp sensor not working, yeah, I have no real world experience as to how my motor acts and why I need to ask the hard question.

Hi, sorry fw is firmware - you've got a number of options there - stock and the two open source firmwares; casainho's and emmbrusa's - the latter is probably the most advanced and has had the most development in the last year or so but there are different displays that can be used with each so it's not a straightforward choice always. I'm only really familiar with, and have contributed code to, the casainho fw.

The temp sensor is used by both the open source firmwares and enables it to throttle back the power the motor provides to try and keep the temperature below the limit you configure. I've cooked one motor once when i was doing tests and forgot to enable the temp sensor protection - but since then with it enabled so far so good so in my opinion it's a worthy thing to have.

However, I can give some stats on how I ride.
I'm a delivery driver. I do 60 - 100 miles a half/full day. Smooth road riding, a small bit of bridal path gravel. And work 3 - 6 days a week. I average 15-20mph. But it's city riding. I stop at every delivery and my bike gets 5-10 minutes to cool down each time. I then, only ride for 5-15 minutes at a time. I live in Newcastle upon Tyne, no hill takes longer than a couple of minutes to climb, and most are less than 300m. Anything steep and noteworthy is less than 50m, and typically avoided. I'm 165lbs. I've been using the eMTB mode from the open source-firmware the most. I found myself in 2 assist when relaxing, using 200-250w on the motor matching my own wattage. Then when pacing, I would be in three using about 350-400 of the motor and 280-320 of my own. I'd get a couple more mph out of 4 assist but not much more. The steepest hill I take uses 500w-750w with the boost depending how I feel.

I'm very effecient with my gearing, or I like to think I am, I do whatever I can to reduce the amount of torque needed. However I feel the motor struggling to keep up with my gearing sometimes, and it's the biggest issue with my riding. I really feel I need the gear sensor.
At the moment Im riding with one 7 speed shifter, and a speed cassette. However I'm wanting to put an 3speed internal hub, with a 7speed cassette. And I don't know if the firmware or motor can handle two separate gear sensors, as well as a single brake sensor.

Based on what you say and how much you ride per day/week and that it's key to your income - I'd definitely recommend keeping the temp sensor and not using a throttle. If you really have to have a throttle - then i'd have a temp sensor and a readout on your handlebars. There are lots of examples in the hardware temp thread by andrea_104kg.

The brake sensor input can accommodate as many brake sensors as you need - and also gear sensors. The input is active low iirc - so any number of sensors can be connected. If any one of them pulls to ground - it activates. It's role is to cut the motor power whenever. Gear sensors protect your drivetrain from wear - and brake sensors the nylon gear - well that's my interpretation. Tbh I don't use gear sensors on either of my bikes but then again I do get through a lot of chains and particularly small cassette cogs - 10/11/12T I chew through...

I've also not read much about the 2b being more reliable than the 2 - maybe it is - but also some of the parts are proprietary so potentially harder to repair - one way sprag clutch for instance is no longer a standard bearing afaik...

The white integrated gear on the 2B is plastic, not nylon and free, and can potentially withstand more torque, (90nm) there are also no more pin bearings which I believe disintegrated from the about of lateral movement through the axel.
My version of the 2 has the non-standard sprag clutch bearing, and I have two of those spare already. The 2B also has the free gear which is really useful for going slow and not wanting to get motor jerks, from no brake sensor or whatever. Less motor drag. They also improved some of the welds around the BB/torque sensor.

Ah ok, yea tbh I've not tried the 2b - from an axle/spindle point of view both of my bikes have extra bearings supporting the spindle and so far I've not had any issues and i'm 90kg give or take. Lighter no-assist pedalling would be nice - but for me it's not that critical as so far I've never run out of juice that far from home... x fingers!

 

[StressedOut]

...x fingers.

RIGHT!! FIRMWARE! lol.

Thank you for very much the clarification on the temp sensor! And subsequently the gear and brake sensors. This has settled my anxiety greatly! I'm going to do all the heat displacement modifications, however opt out of cutting open the body as a heatsink; Option 8 on the GitHub I believe. If I notice the firmware not pulling back the motor then I can switch the sensor out for the throttle.

As for the cogs. I'm currently using a HG cassette and it's awful. The chainline variations and torque cause the 11 to skip, so I empathise with your troubles. I'm trying to rectify that with the 3speed internal hub, and a 6 speed cassette.

Thank for the help!

 

[beemac]

...x fingers.

RIGHT!! FIRMWARE! lol.

Thank you for very much the clarification on the temp sensor! And subsequently the gear and brake sensors. This has settled my anxiety greatly! I'm going to do all the heat displacement modifications, however opt out of cutting open the body as a heatsink; Option 8 on the GitHub I believe. If I notice the firmware not pulling back the motor then I can switch the sensor out for the throttle.

As for the cogs. I'm currently using a HG cassette and it's awful. The chainline variations and torque cause the 11 to skip, so I empathise with your troubles. I'm trying to rectify that with the 3speed internal hub, and a 6 speed cassette.

Thank for the help!

When you say option 8 on the github, which github? Are you definitely running OSF (open source firmware)?

If chainline is a big problem I can recommend the 10mm offset 42T chainrings - I run them on both my bikes. I've even got a dual-chainring (42/50T) setup on one and it shifts with a normal front-mech (just about!)

https://cycles.eco/products/42t-cha...t-110-bcd-solid-e-bike?variant=32363489853522

https://www.electrifybike.com/produ...e-cnc-7075-t6-chainring-10mm-offset-for-tsdz2

https://cycles.eco/products/50t-narrow-wide-solid-e-bike-chain-ring?variant=32669680500818

 

[Elinx]

..... option 8 on the github, which github? ....

The Tsdz2 wiki on Github: Improve motor heat dissipation

 

[sqeeezy]

Some random input: dunno how much of it is relevant to you.
I've done over 1500km on a TSDZ2 with a 50-odd volt 18Ah 15s3p LiFePO4 battery I made. Stock firmware as I've yet to be convinced...
My use case is shopping 3 times a week 10km downhill, 10km uphill, 500m altitude difference, Southern Spain.
I fitted a few extra bearings (FWIW), diy ally shim, heatpads and heatsink paste as I had no idea about possible overheating in summer; transpired all ok provided I hit the shop at 0845 and nash up hill ASAP. Was considering fitting a heat sensor but would've done a stand-alone system with a cheapo Chinese thermocouple as I'm wary of messing with the system as-is, plus I use the throttle for easy get-away in town and for max-assist and nicely controllable walk-alongside mode on the dirt footpath to my house. I'm a lek-tek so I reckon it's ok to use the throttle like that. Ilike pedalling and do that all the time on the way up the hill, in mode 3, current capped at 6A, speed cap irrelevant but 25km/h is fine for me. Downhill I freewheel. I am mech-sympathetic so I pause momentarily in gear-changes to avoid graunching, never needed brake sensors.
I bought a TSDZ2B recently as I'd got a new bike and it's failed after 200km with scronking noise/jerking under load indicative of big gear sprag failure or something. I was given the go-ahead by the vendors to crack it open and have a look, and no obvious fault visible, but found a blue gear fitted, which apparently indicates an earier version of the TSDZ2B. i don't want to whinge about this as the vendors have been communicative and helpful but caveat emptor. I'm getting a big clutch and a blue gear under warranty and I've bought a white gear assembly.
I ride carefully, using granny gear when needed: I know electric motors are happier spinning than labouring.
I'd assume nothing about reliablity from this sample of two, but from day one, after reading the forums, I expected to have at least the odd blue gear swop-out, and the B seems like it wants TLC as well.
No reduction in unassisted pedalling noticed on B. In the "A" the needle bearing stops you pedalling the motor round anyway, or am I missing something? In "A" you waste energy in the needle bearing slip-friction, in the B you waste in in the outer of the combo sprag clutches.
My B is less sloppy than my "A", I was a bit shocked by the "A" how anyone can engineer and sell something with so much play in it. I might not have to put extra bearings in my B. Dunno if this is general or just my experience.