Stealthy lipo filled custom frame

[nechaus]

Yes, Liability insurance is an obvious thing, its not such a big deal, but a must, if you have tested your product and know its good and not selling crap.
I like this frame, the welds look good. Would even be good as a hardtail with beefy front shocks

 

[sethgl]

Hyena

I'm a prospective ebike buyer. I think if you build one that looks more like a mountain bike rather then a small motorbike. I have been considering the stealth bomberbut still feel it looks rather large around the frame and obviously stands out. Others I have considered are the Grace ebike but I feel underpowered. I like the look of the specialized turbo and the Conway erider, I feel they both look more orientated to mountain bikes and would not draw too much attention.

 

[Hyena]

I have been considering the stealth bomberbut still feel it looks rather large around the frame and obviously stands out.

This is a recurring theme and I hear it often. And I own a stealth too! Alot of people come to me asking for kits with the power of a fighter or bomber and would love to have the stealth but aside from the price (which isn't bad for the bike you're getting) they just stand out on the road too much. I've ridden mine on the road a few times on the way to trails but it turns ALOT of heads. It's mainly thumbs up but I suspect certain people in white cars and blue shirts might have a thing or 2 to say about it. [/quote]

 

[geetarboy]

I have been considering the stealth bomberbut still feel it looks rather large around the frame and obviously stands out.

This is a recurring theme and I hear it often. And I own a stealth too! Alot of people come to me asking for kits with the power of a fighter or bomber and would love to have the stealth but aside from the price (which isn't bad for the bike you're getting) they just stand out on the road too much. I've ridden mine on the road a few times on the way to trails but it turns ALOT of heads. It's mainly thumbs up but I suspect certain people in white cars and blue shirts might have a thing or 2 to say about it.

[/quote]
It's hard to improve on the beauty & style of the stealth IMO, which is what I'm basing my builds on , except to make it thinner with a slightly smaller triangle(sacrificing capacity). I always ride on the streets and this latest build is turning lots of heads - I'm sure the cops are noticing too. But, I've never seen a stealth here in KC. I like the designs you're workin on Hyena, even if they are hardtails...

 

[nechaus]

I doubt you will have problems from the police with this frame.
it will look stealthy as when its painted.
You could even put carbon fiber sides on this baby and some inlets to let air through to cool the controller.

I found a place that sells wholesale carbon fiber sheeting in Melb or syd. I will have to go through my books marks and find it.

But you could get 1 to 3 mm thickness and 5m length and 1 meter high. for under $200 + epoxy and mold stufff.

 

[Duc998]

I'll add my

I ride to the CBD everyday and the biggest stealth of all is pedalling. I had a white car come right up beside me and they took a good look, I was going pretty quick up a hill but thankfully I was pedalling, I reckon if I was just powering up the hill they would have pulled me over to sus things out more. That's probably the closest call I've had to getting pulled over, Apart from that I ride past the blue boys station everyday I just make sure I pedal

I've seen a few electric bikes of late, Especially going over the Pymont bridge at peak hour. Seen the A2B, EZee and even a 1000w Goped bloke riding in a suit, Guess it will be a matter of time for him.

Be honest I'd feel a little uncomfortable riding this custom frame to the city, I think it would stand a bit. If I’d had one first thing I’d do is paint it black. I could be wrong.... In the suburbs it would be ok I guess.

I'm hoping with my DH Comp that I'm building the falcon ev bag will cover the battery box within the frame, I dont even know how that will work but I will try and make it fit. I want the frame box to look more like my storage compartment. With everything in black I'm hoping it does not stand out too much.

My current cheap ebike with a pannier pack with 18s3p does not stand out much, The controller sits on top the pannier ( painted black ) and
battery pack in the pannier, Only thing u see it the hub. Most dont realise it epowered until they see the rear wheel or see how easy
I pedal up big hills But its got no balance with all those kgs in the rear + my fat arse dont help

Sorry I'm ranting on a bit here

Anyway the manufacturing option I'd got for is your option 1 tubing. I'd like to see that encloser but encased a some sort of cloth to make it look
like a storage bag... I think it will stand out less. It might be just me but the bikes with batteries in the frame look more powerful then the standard
ebike I see in or close to the city area, Again maybe its just be but with most of the ebikes u see in the city they have their small packs in rear rack
or downtube. I would want my ebike to blend in with these.

 

[Hyena]

But you could get 1 to 3 mm thickness and 5m length and 1 meter high. for under $200 + epoxy and mold stufff.

I'm not adverse to a CF triangle but I don't know much about it or anyone that would do it for me so I probably won't go down that route.
If I did it would have to be on a larger scale to warrant building molds.

I'd like to see that encloser but encased a some sort of cloth to make it look
like a storage bag... I think it will stand out less. It might be just me but the bikes with batteries in the frame look more powerful then the standard
ebike I see in or close to the city area,

Putting a cloth section or bag over it could easily be done by the end user, my concern is a frame to house the batteries in the most low key way possible while still offering good performance. As for looking powerful, it IS a wolf in sheeps clothing. We're talking stealth bomber type power in this frame so there has to be SOME place to store the battery. I could easily make it more subtle with 55x55mm square top bar and town tubes, or leave just enough room for a 12S 8ah pack. Or an 18S 5ah pack with a rack on the back for more range. But I reckon 18S2P is the sweet spot with around 30km range.

If I do look at larger production there could be a few models, with smaller tubes for lesser capacity/lower voltage. A 2000w package with as small geared motor and 12S2P pack in barely oversized tubes would be about as stealth as you could get.

 

[Samd]

I know you've discounted it, but I can't recommend the hot swappable battery on my aprilias enough.
When I pulled it out on a Melbourne ride a few people looked at it a bit weird like they hadn't considered it before.
The ability to always have a second battery fully charged off to the side is bloody handy....

 

[teklektik]

I could easily make it more subtle with 55x55mm square top bar and town tubes, or leave just enough room for a 12S 8ah pack. Or an 18S 5ah pack with a rack on the back for more range. But I reckon 18S2P is the sweet spot with around 30km range.

This is 'right thinking' for stealth.
Big triangles that block the sun or 'bikes' that look like modern sculpture with pedals will always turn heads...

 

[Hyena]

I know you've discounted it, but I can't recommend the hot swappable battery on my aprilias enough.
When I pulled it out on a Melbourne ride a few people looked at it a bit weird like they hadn't considered it before.
The ability to always have a second battery fully charged off to the side is bloody handy....

I haven't discounted anything, that's the beauty of custom making something
Part of my problem is I have so many ideas and things I want to create but they aren't all necessarily suitable to the same bike.
I want a fighter-esq offroad bike, I want a stealthy looking full susser cross country type bike that also doubles as an all round comy commuter type bike, but then I also want a cool looking hard tail (or full susser) that DOES look like an ebike, or stands out as looking different or a bit showy.

Anyway it's going to be the stealty option for now.

I met with the guy who's going to do my welding tonight and the outcome was good. I showed him my proto frame and also my fighter and he seemed pretty confident he could make what I want from scratch, so that's good! I'd told him previously I'd be looking at cromo sheet so he bought a small amount to make up a sample and show me what I could expect. I was very impressed with the results and if I didn't know better I would have just thought it was a section of rectangular tubing. So yeah, very tidy.
He said after he welded it he jumped up and down on it and couldn't get it to flex, then even rolled up onto it with his car and it was fine - so that's a good initial indication of strength!



Onwards with the designing now so we can get cracking!

 

[sn0wchyld]

Idea #2: Integrate in a "standardised" bulk charge and balance connector into the frame.

Most definately! That goes without saying
I'm thinking a 36 pin centronics plug for general charging + a seperate main lead for high current bulk charging. Or maybe just a smaller centronics plug for balancing when required with a main 6 pin bullet connector plug that is put into series to discharge and parallel to charge.
I could also build in a small 120w modded laptop charger for slow top up charging from any 240v source. It wouldn't really be fast enough for opportunistic charging though - more so if you were riding somewhere overnight and had somewhere to recharge it but didn't want to lug the charger along too. Or the 'camping edition' that could recharge from a 12v car battery

Re: idea #3 - yeah easily done too

A DCDC converter for powering lights also goes without saying. I'd probably throw in a USB jack for good measure too - I'm always needing to recharge my gopro or phone when out and about

love the frame jay. too lightweight to interest me personally (I'd want something more like a DH bike) but for lighter trail riding this'd be great! nice and stealthy.
It's probaby more trouble than its worth, but you could look into having some kind of mounting bracket welded on to the front? Lots of guys are mounting their batts in pelican cases to the handlebars, or just in front of them... the ability to add a booster pack on the front wouldn't change the stealth factor by much (if at all) but also means you could easily add another 10ah or more there! THEN you'd have some range!

also can I ask what the modded laptop charger is/can I get it? I'm making myself a 300ish watt charger out of 4 25v laptop supplies, but a single 120w would no doubt be smaller for the times I know ill be staying overnight/longer at a location. can it do 24s?

USB jack is a great idea.

 

[Hyena]

love the frame jay. too lightweight to interest me personally (I'd want something more like a DH bike) but for lighter trail riding this'd be great! nice and stealthy.

I've been thinking about it some more and I think maybe I will make it with longer travel to accomodate those who need it. Several bikes have shock mounts with different positions to adjust the travel so if I implement the same this should enable people to tune the bike to what they want.
My primary goal is still something that looks low key which is why I was looking at more of a cross country type set up but I guess the steerer tube angle can be adjusted to make it more DHish. The previous suggestion to use a 1.5" headset that's slightly adjustable is a good idea.
That said if you want a DH ebike the obvious answer is stealth but I guess if you just want the frame thats not an option.

It's probaby more trouble than its worth, but you could look into having some kind of mounting bracket welded on to the front? Lots of guys are mounting their batts in pelican cases to the handlebars, or just in front of them... the ability to add a booster pack on the front wouldn't change the stealth factor by much (if at all) but also means you could easily add another 10ah or more there! THEN you'd have some range!

Yeah easily done. It's not something I would want on my own bikes but if people want it it can be done. They're all going to be hand made so once the jig is made for hte basic layout of the bike adding stuff like that isnt hard.

also can I ask what the modded laptop charger is/can I get it? I'm making myself a 300ish watt charger out of 4 25v laptop supplies, but a single 120w would no doubt be smaller for the times I know ill be staying overnight/longer at a location. can it do 24s?

Yeah it could do 24S but you'd either need 4 or parallel charge them (which is how I plan to do it and is easily done with an 8 pin anderson block)
They're not something I'm building and selling, it was just a one off unit I made to test but yeah, they seem to work well. I guess I could build them if there's interest down the track

BTW, I put it in my build thread but forgot to post a pic of the assembled bike with the above frame here. This is it all painted (though still not finished)

 

[teklektik]

This is an amazingly sweet frame.
I'm not a big fan of the Greyborg and the Phasor is visually striking, but still doesn't look like a bike. This looks like a bicycle.
With the top tube enlarged a bit as you described to boost the juice by 50% - I would buy this in a heartbeat .
Great work.

 

[auraslip]

Lovely work there. I'd pay out the ass for that, but the only way I could justify it would be if it was usable for a commuter. 18s2p is simply not enough. I run 22s2p now, and it's really only good for 15 miles at medium speeds. Also, high voltage dc-dcs and on board chargers aren't small.

I dunnu, I'm thinking the market for intense off road bikes would be bigger than the market for nice commuters because people with the money to afford a nice bike will commute by car. I must be the anomaly that is relativity poor and thinks spending $2k on a good ebike is better than buying a gas scooter. The end game for any ebike maker is probably gonna be aimed at commuters like me though. Kinda like the tesla model of building high end stuff, and slowly introducing more economical and practical bikes.

Also, WRT to tiny clown bike wheels. I think most people run 16" wheels because they can use a 20" bmx rims and spokes. It seems to me, people(myself included) are going to start using a lot more 17", 18", and 19" rims. They look more like bicycle rims, but can run inexpensive DOT rated moped tires. I'm making the switch because even 2.5" hookworms don't feel safe for daily riding.

 

[full-throttle]

I dunnu, I'm thinking the market for intense off road bikes would be bigger than the market for nice commuters because people with the money to afford a nice bike will commute by car. I must be the anomaly that is relativity poor and thinks spending $2k on a good ebike is better than buying a gas scooter. The end game for any ebike maker is probably gonna be aimed at commuters like me though. Kinda like the tesla model of building high end stuff, and slowly introducing more economical and practical bikes.

Very good point

You need too be clear of what you are offering

Stealth is really important

I want a fighter-esq offroad bike, I want a stealthy looking full susser cross country type bike that also doubles as an all round comy commuter type bike, but then I also want a cool looking hard tail (or full susser) that DOES look like an ebike, or stands out as looking different or a bit showy.

it IS a wolf in sheeps clothing. We're talking stealth bomber type power

Some of the above are contradictory and don't forget that a big hubmotor sticks out more than a big frame. The best way not to draw attention is to ride under 40kph, so "bomber power" is not a good idea

Some may also ask what kind of warranty to expect

 

[sn0wchyld]

love the frame jay. too lightweight to interest me personally (I'd want something more like a DH bike) but for lighter trail riding this'd be great! nice and stealthy.

I've been thinking about it some more and I think maybe I will make it with longer travel to accomodate those who need it. Several bikes have shock mounts with different positions to adjust the travel so if I implement the same this should enable people to tune the bike to what they want.
My primary goal is still something that looks low key which is why I was looking at more of a cross country type set up but I guess the steerer tube angle can be adjusted to make it more DHish. The previous suggestion to use a 1.5" headset that's slightly adjustable is a good idea.
That said if you want a DH ebike the obvious answer is stealth but I guess if you just want the frame thats not an option.

It's probaby more trouble than its worth, but you could look into having some kind of mounting bracket welded on to the front? Lots of guys are mounting their batts in pelican cases to the handlebars, or just in front of them... the ability to add a booster pack on the front wouldn't change the stealth factor by much (if at all) but also means you could easily add another 10ah or more there! THEN you'd have some range!

Yeah easily done. It's not something I would want on my own bikes but if people want it it can be done. They're all going to be hand made so once the jig is made for hte basic layout of the bike adding stuff like that isnt hard.

also can I ask what the modded laptop charger is/can I get it? I'm making myself a 300ish watt charger out of 4 25v laptop supplies, but a single 120w would no doubt be smaller for the times I know ill be staying overnight/longer at a location. can it do 24s?

Yeah it could do 24S but you'd either need 4 or parallel charge them (which is how I plan to do it and is easily done with an 8 pin anderson block)
They're not something I'm building and selling, it was just a one off unit I made to test but yeah, they seem to work well. I guess I could build them if there's interest down the track

BTW, I put it in my build thread but forgot to post a pic of the assembled bike with the above frame here. This is it all painted (though still not finished)

ah I didnt know you're reconfiguring it for charging... the one I'm about half way though making is using 4 25v ps's with a VCVS DC-DC converter on the last, so I can set the charged voltage between 75 and 100V, as well as limit the amps.

Lovely work there. I'd pay out the ass for that, but the only way I could justify it would be if it was usable for a commuter. 18s2p is simply not enough. I run 22s2p now, and it's really only good for 15 miles at medium speeds. Also, high voltage dc-dcs and on board chargers aren't small. .

high voltage dc-dc can be small, (depending on your definition of small)... using a switch mode power supply. my external HD one has been working off 20s and 24s for a year now, and gives both 12 and 5 volts. or are you looking for something the size of a hobbyking BEC or something? in which case yea, laptop/hdd ps's are huge.

 

[tofuuu]

The blacktrail/hardtail inspired design looks so badass though even if it isnt exactly a low profile bike. I am still confused as to whether you are making a hardtail or fullsus bike though.

Personally I dont really care if the bike isnt perfectly "stealth" because unless you are commuting responsibly in it, you probably arent wearing typical commuting gear. A guy in flipflops going at >60km/h is going to look ridiculous no matter what kind of bike he is riding. As long as it still looks like a bicycle and you dont ride it like an asshole then nobody is really going to care. And from what its going to be an open frame so that definately ticks the box of looks like a bicycle. What matters is that the bike is properly put together and is fun to ride. Anyways I get the feeling that this bike isnt really for first ebike buyers, more for enthusiasts looking at ways to stuff more batteries and bigger motors in a frame without having to worry too much about making it all fit together or modifying their own frame cos somebody (hyena) has already done it and made a fancy video of all the fun hes had doing it.

 

[shock]

I don't care what anyone says, that frame is freakin awesome!! I'd buy one if they were mass produced.

 

[Hyena]

I would buy this in a heartbeat

Thanks mate. I'm not sure it'd be worth the postage to send it from Aus to the US but I'm happy to send it if you like.

Lovely work there. I'd pay out the ass for that,

Excellent, exactly how much I intend to charge :lol:

18s2p is simply not enough. I run 22s2p now, and it's really only good for 15 miles at medium speeds. Also, high voltage dc-dcs and on board chargers aren't small.

I'll probably configure it for 18S3P or 24S2P + a bit spare. The onboard charger was just an idea for my own personal use or something I could include the capabilty for if there was room in the oversized tubing. The DC-DC converters I had in mind are just for lights and are only matchbox size.
As for teh need for huge long range packs, I guess if you want something like that something like the phasor would be a better option.
As it is I think fitting 1kwhr in a frame along the lines of what I'm suggesting is pretty cool. And you can always add racks and usual other options for more capacity if you need the range.

I dunnu, I'm thinking the market for intense off road bikes would be bigger than the market for nice commuters because people with the money to afford a nice bike will commute by car.

True, but again phasor and stealth pretty much have that covered. I'm not trying to compete with anyone here but provide something that's currently not available. Initially for my own use, but if it's not much hassle to make them available to the ES community and there's a demand there then why not ?

It seems to me, people(myself included) are going to start using a lot more 17", 18", and 19" rims. They look more like bicycle rims, but can run inexpensive DOT rated moped tires

I've been hunting around for a cheap light weight source of 19" wheel locally but haven't found any so far. I agree they're a good option but again it starts to get away from the stealthy aspect and moves towards e-moto territory. Mind you, something like a bigger, tougher, higher powered looking version of the A2B could be cool - which would be essentially what it would end up.

don't forget that a big hubmotor sticks out more than a big frame. The best way not to draw attention is to ride under 40kph, so "bomber power" is not a good idea

That's the problem, trying to make the best all rounder. Something to commute on if you want and then have a blast around the trails on on the weekend. Not to ride off cliffs on, but be a capable offroader.
As for having higher power, I disagree. You don't HAVE to use just because it's available. Sometimes it's hard not to use the power but with the likes of the 3 speed modes it's easy to cruise around at limited speeds and power. I frequently pedal along the road at 30-40km/hr minding my own business but usually atleast once a day flick into higher power mode briefly to safely merge with cars when a bike lane suddenly dissolves or I need to get across to right turn lanes etc

Some may also ask what kind of warranty to expect

Warranty cards printed with MS paint will be issued with every frame
Nah this is a good point and one that becomes a slightly difficult issue when it comes to supplying these to the ES community or others. I would hope there's no failures but I guess I'll just have to factor a bit extra into the price to cover it.
I can say they will be welded by a professional metal fabricator with over 10 years experience and there's no reason why they should fail. At the expense of weight (though minimal) I may even make them out of slightly thicker material

The blacktrail/hardtail inspired design looks so badass though even if it isnt exactly a low profile bike. I am still confused as to whether you are making a hardtail or fullsus bike though.

Full sus, though I if I had unlimited time to play I would like to make something like the open blacktrail inspired frame.

Anyways I get the feeling that this bike isnt really for first ebike buyers, more for enthusiasts looking at ways to stuff more batteries and bigger motors in a frame without having to worry too much about making it all fit together or modifying their own frame cos somebody (hyena) has already done it and made a fancy video of all the fun hes had doing it.

Exactly, as I suggested my goal isn't mass production or flogging these on ebay, more about making them available to people here who might want one.

 

[Hobbit]

Bumpetty, ya know, just looking at that single photo of the blacktrail was the first time I'd even heard of one. That one photo had me thinking this thing wasn't going to be very stealthy at all, something that lethal looking would get "inspected by an officer" in a heart beat, I thought, but having since seen some YouTube of it moving about, and Orlando bloom straddling one pretending he knows what the f@<k he's doing , I'm much more thinking that's a way to head. Not that I'm in charge of steering or anything....Something along those lines would have you launching a company,Jay. One man's opinion, anyway.

 

[Hyena]

I don't think it'll really have too much in common with the blacktrail. I'd love to do a hardtail with a suspended top bar like shown in my second photoshop but I don't think it'd be doable without making the material quite thick and heavy.
I've spent a bit of time with the guy doing the welding and we've been playing around making a jig which is now all but done. What we're up to now is filling in the blanks - basically putting a shape inbetween teh somewhat fixed points (head tube, swing arm pivot etc)

We were going to jump straight in with a full sus bike but I think I'm better cutting my teeth on a hardtail. But I'm thinking of making it with 2 options - either hardtail or full suspension with minimal mods.
I've been playing around with designs where the rear shock doesn't intrude into the triangle (or does so only minimally) and have come up with something I think will work. Then after searching around I found farfle built something quite similar to the mount I'm after on his race bike:

Ignore the fact he's running a small rear wheel and it's quite long - but that sort of suspension mount.

If I do that the triangle section would be made in one piece, tested as a hard tail and then with minimal mods able to be built as a full suspension bike as well.

 

[Hyena]

Makin progress.



This is the rear of the jig I'm working on - adjustable mounts for different length swing arms with 4x 1" increments. The shortest - 24" , the next increment would be for a longer 24" swing arm, then standard 26" then long 26" - for high stability or racing.

Shown below is the swing arm off my stealth dummy fitted - so that'd be the shortest possible (24" )




Rest of the jig up soon, but I'm goign to start on a hardtail first to sort out any teething problems.

As I posted in my build thread the other day here's a cardboard mockup of what I have planned for the hard tail.

 

[Hobbit]

Surely you're riding around on this bad boy by now...Hmmm? :wink:

 

[Hyena]

Sadly not, the CAD drawing below that I posted in my build thread a few weeks back is as far as it's gotten.
I'm still waiting on the guy doing the welding to finish the hardtail jig so we can knock out the first proto, refine it and then make the finished product. It's hard to make progress though as he lives an hour away and I don't have much time to get out there. And neither does he - he's got a full time day job + a baby on the way in a month or so and is an hour away. Once the jig is done and the first proto is sorted things will rapidly progress but for now it's slow going unfortunately.

It's sort of a backwards / redundant step but I think I'll make an accurate full size cardboard version of the CAD drawing next - that's about all I can do in the mean time

 

[Hobbit]

Oh well, at least in a months time when he's got a newborn bub he'll have heaps of spare time..... No..wait... The total opposite is the truth......NOOOOOO!!!!