SVMC7280 - Low amps?

GiantYukon said:
I spoke with the battery supplier and they say their bms limits bursts above 40a to 3 seconds and then will only put out 40a. Which turns out to be exactly 2100w at 52v.
That's not how the BMS works.

If you hit it's current limit long enough for it to react, it just shuts off the output completely. That is the only thing it *can* do.

A BMS cannot limit current the way a controller or charger does, which is to lower the voltage on the load until the load's resistance/etc holds the current output at the current limit of the controller or charger. A BMS simply doesn't have the necessary electronics.

To do that, it would instead have to be a DC-DC converter, but it is not. It is just a simple switch, which turns on or off based on whatever limits it has (current or voltage).


So I guess with all you guys are saying and what the battery supplier says, makes it pretty conclusive.
Not necessarily; if it was the battery actually limiting the current, it would shut off, and the bike would stop.

The battery voltage sag does limit the *power*, but only because the battery is being pushed harder than it can really handle (most generic ebike batteries have "ratings" that are significantly higher than what they can really handle without stressing the components).


I really just need a battery that has a higher constant output and more in parallel to lessen any sag.
Using better cells (which is more expensive) would help even more. Note that just because a company *says* it uses a particular cell, even if their pictures show them, doesn't mean that's what they actually have in their packs. You'd have to disassemble the pack you get to see what's actually in it, and how well (or poorly) it is constructed.

Also, using enough cells so none of htem are under any kind of stress, like keeping them at 0.5C to maybe 1C, would make for much less voltage sag, and much longer lifespan for the pack.

What do you think of this? Wouldn't run 90a...doubt I'd go over 60, I dont think my hub could handle it.
https://caprouge.com.au/collections/52-volt/products/cptr52-19-2-52v-19-2ah-90a-panasonic-cells-triangle-battery
Couldn't say anything about hte pack itself; never heard of the company so don't know if their stuff is any good or not.

What the pack's "ratings" say might be suitable for your usage, but I don't know how well the pack can support that (you'll find I'm typically doubtful of most pack builders/sellers, based on what I've seen around here on ES in pack repair threads, etc).
52 Volts
19.2 AH
998 Wh
Dimensions 400 Long, 80 Wide, 220 High
90A Continuous discharge
84 PANASONIC CELLS BD 3200mah
2A battery charger included
Discharge lead fitted with popular Anderson connectors
Built in hard Battery Management System, (BMS)
Cell sorting and balancing during production
2 Year warranty
Note that it says 90A continuous, which for a <20A pack is nearly 5C. That's usually pushing 18650 cells fairly hard.

Even if using it at only 60A, that's still >3C.

If the cells are 3200mAh, then with 84 cells on a 14s pack, that's 6 cells parallel, times 3200 is exactly 19.2Ah. Since the BMS should have an LVC high enough to prevent completely discharging the cells to dead, you wouldn't actually get that capacity out of the pack. Don't know how much you would get, you'd have to look at the cell's spec sheet from the cell manufacturer to see what their discharge curve indicates for the current draw you will use the pack at; this will help you determine what you might actually be able to get out of it, as well as how much voltage sag you will get from *new* cells at that rate. (as it ages, taht will get worse and worse, so you want one with virtually no sag to start with).
 
amberwolf said:
GiantYukon said:
I spoke with the battery supplier and they say their bms limits bursts above 40a to 3 seconds and then will only put out 40a. Which turns out to be exactly 2100w at 52v.
That's not how the BMS works.

If you hit it's current limit long enough for it to react, it just shuts off the output completely. That is the only thing it *can* do.

A BMS cannot limit current the way a controller or charger does, which is to lower the voltage on the load until the load's resistance/etc holds the current output at the current limit of the controller or charger. A BMS simply doesn't have the necessary electronics.

To do that, it would instead have to be a DC-DC converter, but it is not. It is just a simple switch, which turns on or off based on whatever limits it has (current or voltage).


So I guess with all you guys are saying and what the battery supplier says, makes it pretty conclusive.
Not necessarily; if it was the battery actually limiting the current, it would shut off, and the bike would stop.

The battery voltage sag does limit the *power*, but only because the battery is being pushed harder than it can really handle (most generic ebike batteries have "ratings" that are significantly higher than what they can really handle without stressing the components).


I really just need a battery that has a higher constant output and more in parallel to lessen any sag.
Using better cells (which is more expensive) would help even more. Note that just because a company *says* it uses a particular cell, even if their pictures show them, doesn't mean that's what they actually have in their packs. You'd have to disassemble the pack you get to see what's actually in it, and how well (or poorly) it is constructed.

Also, using enough cells so none of htem are under any kind of stress, like keeping them at 0.5C to maybe 1C, would make for much less voltage sag, and much longer lifespan for the pack.

What do you think of this? Wouldn't run 90a...doubt I'd go over 60, I dont think my hub could handle it.
https://caprouge.com.au/collections/52-volt/products/cptr52-19-2-52v-19-2ah-90a-panasonic-cells-triangle-battery
Couldn't say anything about hte pack itself; never heard of the company so don't know if their stuff is any good or not.

What the pack's "ratings" say might be suitable for your usage, but I don't know how well the pack can support that (you'll find I'm typically doubtful of most pack builders/sellers, based on what I've seen around here on ES in pack repair threads, etc).
52 Volts
19.2 AH
998 Wh
Dimensions 400 Long, 80 Wide, 220 High
90A Continuous discharge
84 PANASONIC CELLS BD 3200mah
2A battery charger included
Discharge lead fitted with popular Anderson connectors
Built in hard Battery Management System, (BMS)
Cell sorting and balancing during production
2 Year warranty
Note that it says 90A continuous, which for a <20A pack is nearly 5C. That's usually pushing 18650 cells fairly hard.

Even if using it at only 60A, that's still >3C.

If the cells are 3200mAh, then with 84 cells on a 14s pack, that's 6 cells parallel, times 3200 is exactly 19.2Ah. Since the BMS should have an LVC high enough to prevent completely discharging the cells to dead, you wouldn't actually get that capacity out of the pack. Don't know how much you would get, you'd have to look at the cell's spec sheet from the cell manufacturer to see what their discharge curve indicates for the current draw you will use the pack at; this will help you determine what you might actually be able to get out of it, as well as how much voltage sag you will get from *new* cells at that rate. (as it ages, taht will get worse and worse, so you want one with virtually no sag to start with).
It didnt make sense to me that it had a hard 3 second timer and then limited output to 40a.
A friend does have a bms that can do that, but thats a very expensive bms.
When I bought the pack I'm using now off them, they said they changed the BMS in that pack. But I'm sure its still doesn't have that limiting capability.
Well I dont really know what to do now. Dont know who to trust, there dont seem to be a ton of options in Australia.
 
I guess that 90a triangle could be ok, but not really to use at 90a, I certainly wouldn't be using it that high anyway.
I've started talking to a battery building guy in my city, hopefully he can give me a few options. He mentioned testing some of his high amp batteries. I guess I'll see where that takes me.
 
j bjork said:
I have never had a sabvoton, but "current limiting voltage" ?
Sounds like it will start limiting the current when it reaches that voltage to me, and you have 60v.
In that case you will be on limited current all the time with 14s.
What happens if you set something like 42v?

I've got 52v, and no matter how high I set the amps I get stuck at 2100w, it seems that my battery isn't up to the task, volts can drop by 6 under full throttle, so it might be too big an ask to be pumping out much over 40a
 
GiantYukon said:
It didnt make sense to me that it had a hard 3 second timer and then limited output to 40a.
A friend does have a bms that can do that, but thats a very expensive bms.
To do that, the circuitry must be able to handle the full power load of the system, and have transformers, inductors, capacitors, etc., that make it about as large as a wall-charger for your battery that could charge at 40A (or whatever the current limit is), because the BMS would have to be a DC-DC converter (charger, controller) in order to do this. It will also produce some noticeable (probably significant) heat in the process, as these are not efficient circuits--around 50-80%, typically (meaning, anything from a fifth to half of the power thru it is lost as heat!).

If the BMS is not like that, then it can't actually limit current in that way.

There *is* a way to do it using just a very large inductor, or very large capacitors, by turning the discharge FETs on and off rapidly and hoping the inductor or capacitors smooth out the voltage enough to not blow up whatever is powered by the battery, or cause it to shut down due to LVC...but it's likely that enough inductance or capacitance to do that on an ebike would be larger than just using an SMPS (DC-DC type) circuit.
 
Hi there,

I've got a baby version of yours, a Sabvoton SVMC7245 that was sort of unlocked.

Quick question. Are your settings still all the same from your op? If it is, I suspect it might be your current limit voltage setting. I had a similar issue since mine arrived programmed too high (60v) for my 48V 20ah battery and I could only see max around 1900watts on the display, also similar on my installed shunt (38 amps @51V sag). It was simply applying the low voltage current limiting 100% of the time and increasing the DC/Boost current will do nothing. Could be a similar issue with you.

Try lowering that "Current Limiting Voltage (V)" setting to say 48 volts or the same as your lack voltage. I bet you'll be pulling closer to 50amps if this is your issue. I adjusted mine and it allowed me to pull 2800-3000 watts from a stop-start. Big jump in torque and acceleration.

Another thing, if it lets you, try matching the rated phase current to max phase current, or increasing both slightly might be helpful too. Make sure to monitor your motor temp. You could burn it out if you aren't careful.


Hope this helps.
 
GiantYukon said:
j bjork said:
I have never had a sabvoton, but "current limiting voltage" ?
Sounds like it will start limiting the current when it reaches that voltage to me, and you have 60v.
In that case you will be on limited current all the time with 14s.
What happens if you set something like 42v?

I've got 52v, and no matter how high I set the amps I get stuck at 2100w, it seems that my battery isn't up to the task, volts can drop by 6 under full throttle, so it might be too big an ask to be pumping out much over 40a

Seems like you've received advice from two members to reduce your current limiting voltage, so perhaps you should heed their advice. It might give you the response that you want, although it still may stress your battery (seems like even with a new battery, you'd still need to tweak the limiting voltage to get the response you're looking for).
 
E-HP said:
GiantYukon said:
j bjork said:
I have never had a sabvoton, but "current limiting voltage" ?
Sounds like it will start limiting the current when it reaches that voltage to me, and you have 60v.
In that case you will be on limited current all the time with 14s.
What happens if you set something like 42v?

I've got 52v, and no matter how high I set the amps I get stuck at 2100w, it seems that my battery isn't up to the task, volts can drop by 6 under full throttle, so it might be too big an ask to be pumping out much over 40a

Seems like you've received advice from two members to reduce your current limiting voltage, so perhaps you should heed their advice. It might give you the response that you want, although it still may stress your battery (seems like even with a new battery, you'd still need to tweak the limiting voltage to get the response you're looking for).

I think the first time I read that from jbjork I read that completely incorrectly.
Now I'm reading it from Bubblet its making perfect sense and that will be the next thing I try!
 
bubblet said:
Hi there,

I've got a baby version of yours, a Sabvoton SVMC7245 that was sort of unlocked.

Quick question. Are your settings still all the same from your op? If it is, I suspect it might be your current limit voltage setting. I had a similar issue since mine arrived programmed too high (60v) for my 48V 20ah battery and I could only see max around 1900watts on the display, also similar on my installed shunt (38 amps @51V sag). It was simply applying the low voltage current limiting 100% of the time and increasing the DC/Boost current will do nothing. Could be a similar issue with you.

Try lowering that "Current Limiting Voltage (V)" setting to say 48 volts or the same as your lack voltage. I bet you'll be pulling closer to 50amps if this is your issue. I adjusted mine and it allowed me to pull 2800-3000 watts from a stop-start. Big jump in torque and acceleration.

Another thing, if it lets you, try matching the rated phase current to max phase current, or increasing both slightly might be helpful too. Make sure to monitor your motor temp. You could burn it out if you aren't careful.


Hope this helps.

That was it!!!!! Nailed it! Changed the current limiting voltage to the same as my lack voltage and I was pulling over 3000w!!!
Sooo good! Thanks alot!
Thanks everyone that contributed!
 
Glad it worked out!

I did miss the above replies which were on the same topic haha.
 
bubblet said:
Glad it worked out!

I did miss the above replies which were on the same topic haha.
So did I! I've got to stop reading these things when I first wake up!
 
j bjork said:
I have never had a sabvoton, but "current limiting voltage" ?
Sounds like it will start limiting the current when it reaches that voltage to me, and you have 60v.
In that case you will be on limited current all the time with 14s.
What happens if you set something like 42v?

Sorry man I completely misread this post! you nailed it!
 
Awesome! I use a laptop to program my Sabvoton and have not seen it on. Maybe that's why I was getting current limits with lower voltages. I need BLUETOOTH!
 
Maybe not... minde28383 noted that ‘’Anyways this ''limit dc current'' field only takes effect only when your battery sags bellow ''dc current limit voltage'' so don't worry about this field. Be happy that such field is and takes effect when your battery goes down. You still can ride home and don't need to push your bike.’’

You clearly had it set above your operating voltage.
 
OMG!!! I take back everything I said. What an idiot, I had the wrong bloody software downloaded!!! There was a 50a current limit preset all along, I've been missing out!!! Sorry for the slight topic division, but it might be good to warn others who don't get the bluetooth. Bike is now a beast, even on 12s battery. Haven't tried 18s yet. Finally I can lift the frontend with ease with a 12s battery!!!

The software I had:
IMG_2795-2.jpg


The new software: Where it says ''Limit dc current'' It was set to 50a
2.jpg
 
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