The control dilemma

flat tire

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What if a person wants to ride electric motorcycles, electric bicycles, and conventional motorcycles, with as few confusing control false-duplications as possible? The answer may be a rear thumb brake, as shown below. Other opinions or suggested configurations are most welcome.

A false duplication is a control that appears to be the same between two bikes, but actually performs two totally different functions. Like a clutch vs left hand rear brake.

Ideally you would have the same controls in the same places on all 2 wheel powered vehicles, but gas engines appear to prevent you from doing this due to the need for a clutch.

Fortunately, e-bicycles are overall different enough in terms of places you ride, how you ride, the light weight, the pedals and overall feel that with some experience, false duplications are not much of an issue.

Conflicting motorcycle preference one: rear brake on left handlebar. This is a likely a problem mostly from the perspective of becoming used to riding gas bikes, since you can lock your rear brake and crash while thinking you're pulling in the clutch. Especially if you like to do most or all your braking clutch in on a gas bike.

Conflicting preference two: the best place for a front motorcycle brake is actually on the left side, since that way you can "left foot brake" much more easily giving the bike extra grip in some situations, like tight turns. Of course the front brake can't be here on a conventional bike since you need a clutch, which practically speaking has to be operated by your off hand (or does it?)

Solution one for conflicting preferences one and two: a mouth operated clutch for gas bikes. The mouth has some of the most dense wiring of any proprioceptive region in the brain. One method would be a mouthguard pressure transducer. You could use nerve input to the jaw to make sure the clutch isn't disengaged when bumps make your jaw temporarily apply pressure while not intentionally biting. By moving the clutch to the mouth, you can move the front brake to the left lever, rear brake to the right, just like they should have been in the first place.

Solution two for conflicting preferences one and two: a thumb clutch. This should be doable with hydraulic clutch and / or special mechanical advantage in bikes without heavy throwout. Or you could have electric actuated for feather-weight. This solution also has the advantage of moving the front brake to the left lever, rear brake to the right, just like they should have been in the first place.

Solution two for conflicting preferences one and two: a thumb brake. Although this solution would appear to be intrinsically incompatible with a right hand rear brake, it still presents the advantage of keeping both brakes on the bars with the further advantage of not disturbing the conventional clutch position. Can be implemented on bicycles as well.

Why rear brake on bars is better: Easier to apply and modulate especially with heavy motocross boots. More feel. No issues going leg-out on a right turn and still having access to the brake. No awkward rear brake-leg out transitions on right turns.

Why flipped controls are probably not better for an experienced rider: although front brake on left and rear brake on right are theoretically most perfect, this is most easily accomplished with someone who has no motorcycle experience and might hinder or even prove unsafe to an experienced rider.
 
Buh.. Ba. BAH.. BAHABHhahaaha AHaahAhAhAhah..


Good one. Still chuckiling. Lol. Hah.. ha.. hahah... ha.


Mouth guard clutch. Best place for the front brake is on the L. Are you serious? How many motos have you had? Any of them have Any of what you suggest? Dont reinvent the wheel.

Nah.
 
There is no differences of controls between e-motorcycles and gassers, not when e-motorcycles are properly built.

The left clutch lever that is used on motorcycles could be used on ebikes, but pedals are forbidding a foot operated brake or shifter. Nevertheless, a virtual clutch and brake lever could be combined in one, that would operate the clutch in the first 15-20mm of lever travel, then the rear brake. That would be about the closest as can be, the matching controls between them. Still, I have never felt confused alternating both styles of riding, not anywhere close as how confusing it would be to operate a mouth clutch’. :roll:
 
I have never seen a front brake on the left handlebar on any bike, only ever on the right, and probably a good thing as ideally you need to let off the throttle in order to start grabbing the front lever.

an e motorbike can lose the rear brake foot pedal and and replace with a lever on the left handlebar where the clutch used to be though which may be preferable for some
 
The thinking is I want to install a left hand-brake on my Zero, which would give the same setup as my bicycles (they're flipped moto style). But my concern, perhaps unfounded, is that I may momentarily treat the rear brake as a clutch which would suck.

What further makes me think this lever / clutch confusion could be a problem is I've seen an experienced moto rider (but new fast ebiker) lock the LEFT front on a non flipped ebike during panic braking with another rider oncoming in the dirt and go down. His instinct was to grab the clutch.
 
flat tire said:
The thinking is I want to install a left hand-brake on my Zero, which would give the same setup as my bicycles (they're flipped moto style). But my concern, perhaps unfounded, is that I may momentarily treat the rear brake as a clutch which would suck.

What further makes me think this lever / clutch confusion could be a problem is I've seen an experienced moto rider (but new fast ebiker) lock the LEFT front on a non flipped ebike during panic braking with another rider oncoming in the dirt and go down. His instinct was to grab the clutch.

Left had rear brake works fine and is simple to get accustomed to by those used to it as a clutch. As a clutch they had to develop fine control...probably the reason the switch is simple. For my variable regen braking, I'm liking a left side thumb throttle as the best solution so far.
 
A good starting point may be to move your bike brakes to conform with motorcycles. I never did that, but I figure it out pretty quick, when going down a steep trail.

Part of the way I ride goes all the way back to a motorcycle I rode all through college, which had non functional front brake. It served me well in a way, I learned how to lock up a rear tire, and skid turn all around cars that left crossed me. Anyway, just saying,, learn to use that rear brake too.

One way to have less confusion, is ride a scooter. No clutch. My burgman has the rear brake on the left hand. This works great for me riding mountain roads. I mean really twisty ones, where you never really get past 40 mph before you lightly brake for the next 10 mph horseshoe curve. I just rarely use front brake then, just a touch of rear, and its grab right, grab left (gas), grab right, for a half hour to the top of the pass.

Other roads, with 50 mph curves, then its a lot more brake both hands, grab gas. But anyway, I do really like brakes on both hands, just like a bike, except reversed. This presents no confusion if you use both brakes on both types of vehicle.

Got real confused riding the honda 100 dirt bike the first week. At first, nonfunctional rear brake, so I kept grabbing clutch and front brake all the time.. foot,,, oh yeah,,, its been 35 years. It was harder to learn foot brake till it got fixed for sure.

Honestly though,, even a pre senile air head like me can keep it straight where the brakes are on all these vehicles. I thought about swapping all the bikes e bikes to same as the scooter, but found it was never much of a problem.
 
flat tire said:
The thinking is I want to install a left hand-brake on my Zero, which would give the same setup as my bicycles (they're flipped moto style). But my concern, perhaps unfounded, is that I may momentarily treat the rear brake as a clutch which would suck.

What further makes me think this lever / clutch confusion could be a problem is I've seen an experienced moto rider (but new fast ebiker) lock the LEFT front on a non flipped ebike during panic braking with another rider oncoming in the dirt and go down. His instinct was to grab the clutch.

Once you start questioning your ability to switch between different vehicles and controls, is the time to start re-examining all of your transportation choices, for everyone's sake. You don't want to be that guy that blows through the front of a Seven Eleven in a minivan, from hitting the accelerator instead of the brake. Make that type of mistake on a motorcycle and you're toast, so stop riding that first.
 
dogman dan said:
A good starting point may be to move your bike brakes to conform with motorcycles.
Yes, as mentioned above *ahem* my current bicycles run moto style brakes. Made the switch years ago. Flipped levers were pretty sketchy the first few times I rode, now it is second nature.


E-HP said:
Once you start questioning your ability to switch between different vehicles and controls, is the time to start re-examining all of your transportation choices

There are no issues and I am a competent rider who is skilled enough to drop you at will unless you've spent much time on track. Who are you to judge? Being cautious about an unknown control swap demonstrates a safety-conscious attitude valuable for riding motorcycles with minimum injuries.
 
How about a single brake lever that had another pivot point to it in the middle of the grip that allowed fore/aft modulation? Index front, pinky rear or vice versa. So you could pull the lever and then rotate it back and forth to distribute braking force as required.

If we're imagineering...
 
I couldnt imagine a high power moto ICE without clutch modulation. I have played with lots of this kind of stuff, like slap shifting and rolling back ignition and fuel.. maps.. for airshifting on switches.... drags... Hard on the gears, bends forks and chips dogs.....

My Zx10r had a slipper... I couldnt imagine living without a good slipper, for those hard overruns.. .. Wait.. I take that back.. Thats a ZX9r. I had one of those too... and I will tell you.. It takes alot to speed up, and also lot to slow down... Power wise, and the faster you are, the shorter the time for a rider to decide what and where... I honestly love loading up the front forks, looking at the wheel as machine attitude changes, feathering both the front brake and the throttle at the same time, getting nice and low before flicking in.. not after... and I dont think I could oporate both controls with one on each hand.... I would have to loosen the grip on both clip ons to actuate the lever and the trottle, to load up the fork... and that would give me less control that loading up the front end with all controls on the right ( feather TH and BRK at same time to flick in ) and my hand stabilizing the front end with a closed grip... Impossible if the throttle and brake were seperate, I would have to let go of the bars to do that.

Clutch is on the left, and the front brake is on the right.. Never throttle on the L or front brake on the L... And I will absolutely NEVER let anybody without the skill or head about them ( confusion?) on either bike ever. They are quite fast bikes, let me tell you. I dont use the clutch to slow down before flicking it in, I am already in position and, flicked in, halfway round the turn... Never brake into or throw gears down before the turn, if you are, that is a newb mistake and the place you will be fiddling with the machine controls as the rider who was in position already flies past you.... Brake before the turn, not in the turn... and if you have to figure out what lever to use, at that moment.. good luck. You are in another class of rider than me.

Just got a K4 1000R going in the shop.. yup under the cheap chrome shitty ( prior owner) levers there was good ol Gixxer controls.. get rid of those aftermarket levers and put the right ones back in place... Bike thanked me. Lol.

i would not give that bike to any person who does not know the clutch from the brake ever. That would be asking for an ambulance.

You are tryig to say a Suzuki automatic Quad 230s system is better, or any of thos pitbike motors, in lil bikes and quads... .. Like a automatic Clutch brake on the left and the parking brake above them. Parking brake never works, is junk. Those things can confuse the hell out of anybody.

If you are confused rider, I will let you ride the low power bike, until you learn . Some people ( we all have seen it) cannot ride and navigate and oporate controls at the same time. Fact of life. Wil ride strainght into the first tree that is closest, hit it, drop the bike and take the helmet off and walk away.

You aint slappin gears with me on pavement at 130mph+.. That would b silly. No experienced rider should question the control setup, if you do, you need more practice.

I have a friend who gets confused by the Shimano Ispec on my bike all the time, even though they are in the proper places, he just for the life of him cannot figure out the shifting. Always trying to pedal in the wrong gear when the right gear is just one or two clicks away, spring loaded, ready and waiting .. but he takes the time, looks, gets it wrong.. tries to pedal, goes pushes the shifter the wrong way again... the other way... ect... doesnt look out for the tree.


Honestly, main braking action and main motive traction should be on the same grip ( cause it is intuitive). In an emergency you automatically ( inherently ) disconnect the drive with the reach for the Fbrake lever, on an emergency evasive action.

My Domino is from a ZERO. Throttle is on the right on those, and where is the front brake on those? How about the Br ammo? Or Lightning? how do they address the control regimen? You really want ebikes to control like automatic 1980-1990 quads? Like the Suzi quadrunner automatic and the Polaris bikes? Nah. IMO.
 
flat tire said:
There are no issues and I am a competent rider who is skilled enough to drop you at will unless you've spent much time on track. Who are you to judge? Being cautious about an unknown control swap demonstrates a safety-conscious attitude valuable for riding motorcycles with minimum injuries.

I'm not judging, just not sure what is causing you to question yourself. I have a fair amount of motorcycling experience (well over 250K miles), while concurrently riding mountain bikes, and switching back and forth has never been a problem. But, my motorcycles and bikes don't resemble each other enough to cause confusion. I applaud you for being safe and self aware. I apologize for not being supportive enough.
 
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