Timing Adjustment Tool

amberwolf said:
BTW, in case you ever wanted to know, it's very bad to suddenly advance the timing 5 degrees when it had been retarded 6 degrees, when running at full speed on this motor. :( Can cause motor to completely STOP and disperse it's momentum by flinging things attached to it around the table. :lol: :oops: it was not intentional, but I was changing the wrong map on screen and then hit Apply Settings. :oops:
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NOW YOU TELL ME...WHY DID YOU NOT TELL ME A FEW WEEKS AGO BEFORE IT HAPPENED TO ME AND I CAME OFF ON THE ROAD AT 25MPH :p



As for the RPM thing...Ian has already sorted it with a firmware upgrade. you will ned to get a ver 03 firmware..A new chip from him. SE back a few posts to where it is discussed. I found this around October? November.
it had been thought it was interference and spikes on the hall signal.

Wade your way through my videos....I know they can be a bit tedious to watch, but you should see what you describe, the random rpm readings below a certain RPM..I seem to remember 240 RPM was the point with an 8 pole pair motor.
I think the last video also shows the upgraded firmware and accurate reading to much lower RPM

this post shows it running with the new firmware
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19054&start=360#p510971
 
NeilP said:
NOW YOU TELL ME...WHY DID YOU NOT TELL ME A FEW WEEKS AGO BEFORE IT HAPPENED TO ME AND I CAME OFF ON THE ROAD AT 25MPH :p
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I'm just glad I made my mistake during bench testing. :shock:

Maybe if I had had a TA back before then, I'd've already made the mistake and talked about it...and perhaps you wouldn't have had the problem...but I didn't have it until earlier this month.


As for the RPM thing...Ian has already sorted it with a firmware upgrade. you will ned to get a ver 03 firmware..A new chip from him. SE back a few posts to where it is discussed. I found this around October? November.
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it had been thought it was interference and spikes on the hall signal.
I might not need to worry about it, depending on how I use this motor. But the TA2 has a programming port, I thought, so why not just send us a file to program the existing MCU directly? Having to unsolder the old MCU and then solder in a new chip seems a bit drastic.


Wade your way through my videos....I know they can be a bit tedious to watch, but you should see what you describe, the random rpm readings below a certain RPM..I seem to remember 240 RPM was the point with an 8 pole pair motor.
I think the last video also shows the upgraded firmware and accurate reading to much lower RPM

this post shows it running with the new firmware
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19054&start=360#p510971
Click to expand...
I've been watching some of them already, whenever I have had the time to follow this thread and others; it's part of what helped me to understand the TA2. :)
 
At least with my board, no unsoldering required, the firmware is on the bigger of the two chips, and they are both in sockets

I did wonder about the programming header too, and I did ask Ian about it, but therewas some issue or other, and sending the chip wad easier.....but I am just over 100 miles away, not the orher side of the world
 
hillzofvalp said:
When will this be a plug and play solution? ( :D :D :D :D :shock: :!: :idea: :!: )
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I'd say it is almost at that stage now. It will never quite be that due to the number of variations between systems, be it the type of plugs people have fitted for the hall sensors or the type of motor used etce
If you were using the phase current monitor and throttle position sensor too, then they are also plug type dependant.

You are always going to have to fit your own plugs where you break the timing /phase cable..or at the very least, fit the same plugs you currently have between controller and motor.

Setting are going to always be down to the end user..connect to a computer, adjust and monitor performance..back to PC and adjust again till happy.

The only thing to make it easier for the end user would be to supply it in a molded box/potted? with pig tail wires coming out to allow you to solder on your own connections

BUT...and my testing on hub motors is not yet finished...I really need to fit brakes to my test bike if I am doing plus 30 mph up and down the road. SO back to the big BUT....So far I have seen no real world difference in using this unit on a small or large hub motor. Small one being the unbranded 'granny bike' type or the big one being the Xlyte5304.

They both spin up and give great increases unloaded ( see my previous videos) , but under load, on the road, no noticeable speed increases have been seen.

I need to do more rides with the small hub motor, at 100volts, but tests so far have shown top speed to be unchanged, while current is topping out at about 25 amps with a 42 amp controller.

Bike builds using higher pole count RC motors, running at higher RPM's, or higher pole count motors that the Xlyte series, may yield better results, so geared motors maybe?
 
hillzofvalp said:
THat's surprising. I wish I could get a count on how many people are getting benefit and the specific motors they were successful with.
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Yes, that would be good. Maybe Burtie could give us some idea on how many he has out there "in the wild" and on what motors, and who is having good results and who is not.

I can say for sure that with an Xlyte 5304 or the small random motor, they both give good speed increase unloaded but on the road, no difference.

It is possible that if I had a long straight flat road where I could get up to WOT and remain there for a minute or more without having to let up, the smaller motor may have a speed increase..but only maybe 10% or less. At the moment it is topping out at 30 mph at 100volts with about 25 amps or so, with a 42 amp controller. With or without the TA adjustment it still tops out at 30 or so, current higher with Timing Advance, but speed the same. Over a mile or so it may slowly start to pick up speed, but for every day riding it makes not difference.
As for the Xlyte and the Lyen controller, I will never be able to say, since my controller is limiting at 65 amps from the battery. That is my every day commute bike, so I do not wish to up the amps more and cook it
 
The current limiting is only an issue on the big motor. On the small one there is plenty more current available from the controller, but it still does not go faster. It gets up to the same speed with slkghtly more current than no timing advance, and that is it. At max speed current is about 25 amp ( from memory) with at 42 amp controller
That max speed remains same with or without any advance
 
Possible, but this is with an non programable controller, so can't do anything to find out
It is a Crystalyte 18 FET 42 amp unit...4110 mosets..but it can't be programmed. have tried all sorts including posting for help n here, but it seems to be the board type that cant be programmed EB218-A-2. different board to the one Lyen uses.
 
While reading through some threads about motor control here on ES, I stumbled on this paragraph from Ricky_nz, which I thought might be relevant here.

Ricky_nz wrote:
...In FOC a second current can be introduced in phase with the rotor to perform field weakening to achieve a similar effect to changing the timing. However field weakening has drawbacks as not all motors benefit from it or some motors require very large amounts of current to achieve additional speed and at the same time they lose torque because a significant amount of that current is now not at 90deg to the rotor position ( motor can only handle so much current and if you put it all in phase with the rotor to field weaken then you can't put any into the 90deg part to generate torque...
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taken from:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23205&p=368470&hilit=arm+cortex#p368470
 
Yes, could well be the issue with this motor.
I really need to run this motor up with a programmable controller to see if I can get any better results, but as I only have one that I can program, and that is on my aily commuter bike, I dare not risk cooking it ( again)

I need to order a new controller for my 5405 build at 34s, so may see about getting another controller from Lyen and selling off my two spares that I can't program, I have a 12 FET sensor less with Crystalyte APM display unit and an 18 FET sensored 72-100 volt 42 amp unit from Xlyte. Nice to keep as backup controllers, but just seen tobe ammassing loads of stuff, spending more and not actually getting anywhere at the moment
 
Anyone want to donate ( and I'll pay postage) or sell me a controller for real cheap that is programable and high current, 100volt capable that I can continue testing this board and motor with.

I have come to a bit of a halt now really with the board with this controller, although battery current is not limiting, but speed just does not increase. May need a bigger controller that can supply more phase current to see if this board does actually achieve what it sets out to, because so far I see no speed increase at all.
 
NeilP said:
... to see if this board does actually achieve what it sets out to....
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This board sets out to enable the commutation timing of a sensored BLDC motor to be adjusted. I think we have seen plenty of evidence to show that it achieves that.

Dont confuse this with 'The aim of this board is to make Neils bike go faster '
We are aware that your bike doesn't go any faster, you have continually reminded us of this over the last several pages.

Burtie
 
Burtie said:
NeilP said:
... to see if this board does actually achieve what it sets out to....
Click to expand...

This board sets out to enable the commutation timing of a sensored BLDC motor to be adjusted. I think we have seen plenty of evidence to show that it achieves that.

Dont confuse this with 'The aim of this board is to make Neils bike go faster '
We are aware that your bike doesn't go any faster, you have continually reminded us of this over the last several pages.

Burtie
Click to expand...


Sorry Ian, I am not having a go at you, may have phrased that badly. It obviously does what it is intended unloaded, I have more than shown that to myself and others in the video clips.
Maybe what I should have said is I want to see if it can make this particular motor type go faster in road conditions.

I always thought the purpose of this timing adjustment was exactly that, to increase road speed, maybe I have misunderstood. So maybe I am missing the point of what this board was for. I thought that the total point of this board was to increase the top speed in road conditions.

Burtie said:
.
The aim of continually adjusting the timing is to help keep the motor operating at its maximum efficiency, or maximum performance :)
Burtie
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Maybe I mis understood the use of the word 'Performance' I just jumped in and assumed max performance as opposed to max efficiency would mean more speed


As a tool to show that timing advance/Field weakening theory works it is great. it does that brilliantly, you have implemented it all very well with an easy to use and setup piece of kit, not knocking or denigrating your work in any way.

The bike I have is not a 'real' bike it is a test rig built solely for seeing what results I can get from the board. I do not need the test bike, the board, spare controller or any of it. I am doing it all merely in the interests of experimentation and trying to see if I can show real world results with a hub motor of low pole count.
If I get it to give me increased road speeds, it will only encourage more people to buy it and get you a few more sales.

Even if I can't get it working to increase road speed as I expected it too, it may at least show what is causing this motor to not increase speed further which may lead to you being able to at least give advice to new buyers as what will show a speed increase and what will not.

So not knocking your work in any way, just trying to get to this motor to go faster in real world conditions with the board. it goes great unloaded just loaded something is limiting it and until I can try another controller, can only assume that it is the controller that is the problem. I never once said the board was the issue here
 
I think maybe also it's good to have a realistic look here. Even though the typical china controller
does a poor job of controlling the motor the efficiency is not spectacularly bad, maybe around the
80% mark or so. With the laws of physics as they are (for 10% more speed you need 30% more power)
you can improve efficiency but you'll not turn a slouch into a racebike.

My controller IC (other thread) is build for efficiency but I do not expect people to get a real
significant increase in road speed from it. What I do expect though is for them to get the same
speed with lower current draw from the battery and less heating of the FET's and motor (resulting
also in a higher reliability)...
 
NeilP said:
Anyone want to donate ( and I'll pay postage) or sell me a controller for real cheap that is programable and high current, 100volt capable that I can continue testing this board and motor with.

I have come to a bit of a halt now really with the board with this controller, although battery current is not limiting, but speed just does not increase. May need a bigger controller that can supply more phase current to see if this board does actually achieve what it sets out to, because so far I see no speed increase at all.
Click to expand...

ive tested this module around a year ago with a magic pie motor on the road, and heaps of other motors, i cant remember the exact numbers but i had around 10-12% more rpm no load and about 10% higher top speed on the road, no doubt at all that that i got more top speed from using it, that is the normal result, and always would be when your top speed is voltage limited (ei you are not already at your controllers current limit)
-its kinda like having 10% more voltage, so up goes your top speed, as long as you have the power available to do the higher speed (you do unfortunately need a heap more power for a bit more speed in life) so yes neilp there seems to something odd going on with you setup not gaining speed, maby controller? maby a weird motor problem, not sure, be good to get to the bottom of it, so do press on getting more data so we can work it out.
but please dont even bother trying to cast even the slightest doubt that extra rpm (and therefore speed) is available from this module, it works very well at everything it was designed to do.
 
toolman2 said:
but please dont even bother trying to cast even the slightest doubt that extra rpm (and therefore speed) is available from this module, it works very well at everything it was designed to do.
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I NEVER SAID THAT I did not try and cast any doubt that it did not increase RPM. Check out my rather boring videos earlier in this thread. It works exceptionally well at increasing RPM unloaded .

I have said it is possibly something to do with the setup I have, but do not know what yet..That is why I am trying to find a less limiting controller. I know my battery current is not limiting. drawing max of 25 or so on a 42 amp controller, current goes up a bit with TA increase to 30 amps or so, but no speed increase.

All I have ever said is that it is not working with this setup and I am trying to find ideas why. Ian have been very helpful in getting it to work this far, coming up with a new firmware that works correctly at the lower RPM's that these low pole pair motors. I am only really experimenting with this now as my little way of paying him back for his hard work. If I can fidn what is causing this to happen, then it may help in improving the device to wrk with a wider range of motors
 
Regarding controller compatibility - I can report that Ian's device works fine with a Sevcon Gen4 controller - though I've yet to make any serious timing tests with it.

It also works with the small silver Kelly controllers - though the bigger isolated Kelly's (KHB) don't (at least not without modifications to the TA).

For those battling saturation - seems timing can really help increase current/torque overload capabilities - well worth experimenting with for vehicles pushed past thier limits..


Good work Ian..

Steve
 
Come-on, let's not get all camel toe'd about this! I am following these experiments with great interest and hope that experimenting continues so I can gleen if there is enough difference to warrant me buying a fistfull of these to adapt to my motors.
 
IS it possible that due to the angled tooth of the stator, that the X5 serie wont work?.. just like for the Delta-WYE...

The X5 had no succes with the ( electric transmission) Delta-WYE and it just consumed more current.

I see the exact same problem here but about timing.

I guess taht with the 9C, HX andcromotor it would?

I was expecting it to qork with my X5 and the $$ Enertrac that my friend J-L bought but both are angled stator tooth :?

Well... I will try anyway on both

Doc
 
I bought one of these a while ago and never got around to wiring it up....don't think I will ever get the time to try out Bertie's amazing device.

If anyone would like it I would be happy to part for some cash :D
 
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