larsb
1 MW
@burtie: i want to try one of the boards, PM sent.
Timing Adjustment Tool
- Thread starter Burtie
- Start date
NeilP
1 GW
I am in UK
you can have mine. I am not going to be using it now..near enough given up on e-bikes
PM sent
you can have mine. I am not going to be using it now..near enough given up on e-bikes
PM sent
bchaney
100 W
I'm trying to understand hall timing adjustment better - does advancing/retarding the timing actually change the phase angle of the waves?
It changes the time at which the controller begins each one, so if that's what phase angle is, then yes. (I don't remember).
IIRC, the idea is to make the pulses begin at the right time to pull/push the magnets in the most efficient way (usually). Some motors (or in some uses) don't have the halls in actually the right place to make this happen, and/or when a motor is rewound in a different way than designed the halls may not "line up" with the best point to cause this to happen.
I might be misrembering...so someone that understands all this better might need to chime in.
This post from burtie on the first page of the thread might help; it explains in a lot more detail
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19054#p278500
IIRC, the idea is to make the pulses begin at the right time to pull/push the magnets in the most efficient way (usually). Some motors (or in some uses) don't have the halls in actually the right place to make this happen, and/or when a motor is rewound in a different way than designed the halls may not "line up" with the best point to cause this to happen.
I might be misrembering...so someone that understands all this better might need to chime in.
This post from burtie on the first page of the thread might help; it explains in a lot more detail
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19054#p278500
NeilP
1 GW
As AW said.. I started typing a reply on the iphone from hotel room earlier..but it cbacame too much work..
I am not sure exactly if it the correct 'technicla ' description of what happens but as AW says is effectively what happens.
Each 'pulse ' of current down the phase wires creates a rising magnetic field in each coil..this 'pulse ' of magntisim tavels around the hub, from winding to winding .
The magnetic field takes a finite time to build up and decay,
This travellign magnetic pulse puls the magnetic in the rotor aroudn with it.
Each 'pulse' ./..the syncronisation of the pulses in relation to where the magnets are in the rotor, is timed by the output from the hall sensors.
The signal from the hall sensor is sent to the controller, which then sends the power 'pulse ' down the phase wire, creating the magnetic pull. All this takes time. it is not instaneous ...
So as the motor gets faster and faster..the trotor spinnign faster, it reaches a point where the rotor has 'caught up with' the magnetic pulse, so it cant spin any faster.
This is where timing adjustment comes in ( as well as to iron out innaccuracies in buisl as AW allueded to).
Imagine a fixed mark on magnet in the rotor rotating passed the hall sensor. At exactly the point the mark on the magnet, as it passes the Hall sensor, hall sensor fires and tells controller to send pulse down phase wires.
The timing board allows the point at which the controler fires the phase pulse to be adjsuted in relation to the 'timing mark' on the magnet.
So as the motor gets faster, and the magnets in the rotor 'catch up' with the 'magnetic travelling pulse'' the firing point is advanced so the pulse is 'created' earlier
As I said not an exact description, but it is a close enought one to understand what it is doing. Think of timing advance in a petrol engine, as you speed up the engine, the spark is fired earlier to take account the speed of the pistion and the tiem it takes for the fuel to burn.
I am not sure exactly if it the correct 'technicla ' description of what happens but as AW says is effectively what happens.
Each 'pulse ' of current down the phase wires creates a rising magnetic field in each coil..this 'pulse ' of magntisim tavels around the hub, from winding to winding .
The magnetic field takes a finite time to build up and decay,
This travellign magnetic pulse puls the magnetic in the rotor aroudn with it.
Each 'pulse' ./..the syncronisation of the pulses in relation to where the magnets are in the rotor, is timed by the output from the hall sensors.
The signal from the hall sensor is sent to the controller, which then sends the power 'pulse ' down the phase wire, creating the magnetic pull. All this takes time. it is not instaneous ...
So as the motor gets faster and faster..the trotor spinnign faster, it reaches a point where the rotor has 'caught up with' the magnetic pulse, so it cant spin any faster.
This is where timing adjustment comes in ( as well as to iron out innaccuracies in buisl as AW allueded to).
Imagine a fixed mark on magnet in the rotor rotating passed the hall sensor. At exactly the point the mark on the magnet, as it passes the Hall sensor, hall sensor fires and tells controller to send pulse down phase wires.
The timing board allows the point at which the controler fires the phase pulse to be adjsuted in relation to the 'timing mark' on the magnet.
So as the motor gets faster, and the magnets in the rotor 'catch up' with the 'magnetic travelling pulse'' the firing point is advanced so the pulse is 'created' earlier
As I said not an exact description, but it is a close enought one to understand what it is doing. Think of timing advance in a petrol engine, as you speed up the engine, the spark is fired earlier to take account the speed of the pistion and the tiem it takes for the fuel to burn.
NeilP
1 GW
The tool actually creates a synthisised hall signal..it does nto actually 'capture' and send out the original.
Also it does actually 'advance' the timing..that would be impossible without the ability to see in to the future. In effect, it see s the incoming signals (it intercepts all three) then delays them all by fractionally less than one cycle. That 'fractionally less' is the amount of 'advance' of the new signal.
I think some where on this thread, or a youtube video that myseldf or Burtie created showing a dual scope trace of the real hall signals and the synthetic ones.
Also it does actually 'advance' the timing..that would be impossible without the ability to see in to the future. In effect, it see s the incoming signals (it intercepts all three) then delays them all by fractionally less than one cycle. That 'fractionally less' is the amount of 'advance' of the new signal.
I think some where on this thread, or a youtube video that myseldf or Burtie created showing a dual scope trace of the real hall signals and the synthetic ones.
NeilP
1 GW
bchaney said:
If you do know the term Phase angle control , as in theis device here:
http://nz.rs-online.com/web/p/thyristor-power-controller-assemblies/0841924/
which I believe controls power by adjsuting the relationship bewteen phase voltage and peak current in an inductiove load....
Then the explanation I have given may well be way way too simple for your needs and understanding...
But short answer to your question : NO...it does not change the output of the controller pahse output in any way.
It moves it in realtion to the controling signal fromt he hall sensors.
There you go..my three posts...may all of cousre be total mis-information on a technical level...but they do give a working explanation of what appears to be happening ..and this understanding is enought to use the device.
bchaney
100 W
Thanks guys. The wiki page below describes phase angle, it's basically the distance between waves. The second picture shows a standard motor phase angle of 120 degrees. A few motors are different, like Golden motors are 60 degrees. Just trying to figure out if hall timing shifts the phase waves relative to eachother or if it shifts all of them together. Based on your posts and others in this thread I think the former is the case, but I'm trying to confirm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power
It doesn't actually change the phase itself, just the timing signal to the controller that generates the phases. So the controller still sends those exactly like it did before.
The controller can't send each phase at a different frequency (wavelength), becuase they are all on the same motor which is turning the same speed, so they must remain the same relative to each other.
The controller can't send each phase at a different frequency (wavelength), becuase they are all on the same motor which is turning the same speed, so they must remain the same relative to each other.
NeilP
1 GW
No,bchaney said:
bchaney said:
Correct, it just shifts them all....
But the controller itself is totally un aware of the shift...the board is 'tricking ' the controller in to sending the phase waves/pulses out at a different time .
All the board does is intercept the hall signals and puts them out at a different time in relation to the motor stator/rotor position.
NeilP
1 GW
probably only if you can find a used one
Burtie does not seem to be repkyong to stuff on here or private e-mail any more. I tried contacting him a few months back and had no reply.
Burtie does not seem to be repkyong to stuff on here or private e-mail any more. I tried contacting him a few months back and had no reply.