TSDZ2 not working after automatic shutdown

[Eggie]

Hi everyone,

First time poster, long time reader. I have this issue with the TSDZ2 where it sometimes just doesn’t give any power while pedaling, regardless of the support mode. I think I narrowed it down that it only happens when it had shutdown automatically and I want to restart not long after. Since it’s assisting a cargo bike with 2 kids, the motor is rather important. It’s still on the stock software but I had it with the OSF too.
Does anyone know what may cause this and what the solution may be (besides not letting it go to auto shutdown which only happens when we forget to turn it off).
Thx!

 

[Elinx]

.... shutdown automatically and I want to restart not long after. ....

Do you start the display/motor after shutdown always without feet on the pedals?
This is neccesary to determine the zero offset of the torquesensor.
If the offset is too high, the sensitivty and support is too low.

 

[Eggie]

Yes we do it always without any feet or other pressure on the pedals. Restarting doesn’t work either. We just have to wait it out. Sometimes it like gives small amounts of support but it stutters.

 

[Elinx]

... Sometimes it like gives small amounts of support but it stutters.

Next easy to do is to check the distance between the spokemagnet and speedsensor.
It must be about 10mm opposite to the mark on the sensor. (the manual says about 4mm, but is too close)
If too close, rotate the magnet away.
Too close, too far or too much offplaced to the mark means the signal will be corrupted or disturbed and give wrong signals to the controller.
Latest versions of OSF (mbrusa build) has improved this with filtering that signal.

FYI
Auto shutdown should be the same as shutdown manually.

 

[Eggie]

Thanks for the reply, the magnet sensor isn’t the issue… I already checked this. So the auto-shutdown should be coincidental?
What about the stuttering motor?
The strange thing is that these problems disappear. My wife usually rides the bike and mostly when there’s an issue it’s already resolved by the time I get to check it. The problems also appear with the cargo bike loaded or unloaded. That doesn’t seem to be the cause of the problem neither.

 

[Elinx]

...the magnet sensor isn’t the issue… I already checked this. So the auto-shutdown should be coincidental?
What about the stuttering motor? ....

imho auto shutdown is coincidental, but you maybe are focused on it.
Stuttering which is going away is very annoying and difficult to find the cause.
This because it isn't always there or easy reproducible.
But you say it was with OSF too, so imho it must be a sensor or mechanical cause.

Have you already read the wiki if you recognize the behaviour you describe?

 

[Eggie]

I didn’t find anything about a stuttering motor. It could be the PAS-sensor but I would think the problem would happen all the time in that case.
I was wondering if it could be a battery thing, even though the display stays on and gives correct speed readings.

 

[Elinx]

.....
I was wondering if it could be a battery thing, even though the display stays on and gives correct speed readings.

This is typical for corrupted speed pulses. This happens if the sensor gives many pulses in a very short time, by bouncing of the reed contacts, if the magnet passes. That is why I said this at first.
Try to rotate the magnet away of the sensor and see what happens.

Battery I could not imagine and I think you had more problems with the display, which looses comunication with the controller.
Also the PAS sensor does work or doesn't, but not in between.
Another problem could be the wiring of the torquesensor, because these wires are fed trough small holes in metal.
In rare cases the isolation of these wires will be damaged by movement, but imho the problems will be much more remarkable, instead of just stuttering now and than.

 

[Eggie]

Ok, thanks for all the info. I will experiment with the speed sensor. I’ll attach the throttle to see what happens in case of stutter and using the throttle.
I’ll experiment and post updates!

 

[Eggie]

New status:
Yesterday the bike wasn’t giving a lot of support like the battery was low but upon checking it had 39,4V left (it’s the 36v version). Today I added the throttle and did a little test drive without any issues (and without charging the battery). I’m a bit confused in what to do… could this be a torque sensor thing? I’m a bit hesitant to unscrew the whole motor because we need it every day.

 

[Chalo]

I’m a bit hesitant to unscrew the whole motor because we need it every day.

That's not a job for TSDZ2, then.

I suggest having two e-bikes. One with a hub motor for getting around, and another one with TSDZ2 for troubleshooting and repairing.

 

[Elinx]

....… could this be a torque sensor thing? I’m a bit hesitant to unscrew the whole motor because we need it every day.

If you have a vlcd5 it is possible to see if the torque sensor does work with stock firmware too.
You must go to hidden settings and check TE and TE1 without load on the pedal and with your weight on the pedal.

If you have XH18 or Vlcd6, it is only possible with OSF

 

[Eggie]

That's not a job for TSDZ2, then.

I suggest having two e-bikes. One with a hub motor for getting around, and another one with TSDZ2 for troubleshooting and repairing.

That’s a strange idea. As I said, it’s a cargo bike. It had a hub motor but that wasn’t strong enough anymore. Why would the tsdz2 not be sufficient to get around every day? Why get it then?

 

[endlessolli]

That's not a job for TSDZ2, then.

I suggest having two e-bikes. One with a hub motor for getting around, and another one with TSDZ2 for troubleshooting and repairing.

That’s a strange idea. As I said, it’s a cargo bike. It had a hub motor but that wasn’t strong enough anymore. Why would the tsdz2 not be sufficient to get around every day? Why get it then?

@Chalo is very knowledable and insightful - but he has some sort of hate relation with the TSDZ2.
Best to ignore his comments on TSDZ2 - or at least take them with a big grain of salt.....

 

[Chalo]

That's not a job for TSDZ2, then.

I suggest having two e-bikes. One with a hub motor for getting around, and another one with TSDZ2 for troubleshooting and repairing.

That’s a strange idea. As I said, it’s a cargo bike. It had a hub motor but that wasn’t strong enough anymore. Why would the tsdz2 not be sufficient to get around every day? Why get it then?

@Chalo is very knowledable and insightful - but he has some sort of hate relation with the TSDZ2.
Best to ignore his comments on TSDZ2 - or at least take them with a big grain of salt.....

Just keep reading here about all the many different problems people have with TSDZ2 that are either rare or non-existent with other systems. Eventually you'll get it.

 

[Eggie]

If you have a vlcd5 it is possible to see if the torque sensor does work with stock firmware too.
You must go to hidden settings and check TE and TE1 without load on the pedal and with your weight on the pedal.

If you have XH18 or Vlcd6, it is only possible with OSF

I do have the vlcd5 but I can’t seem to get to that part of the menu. I read to hold info and power for 10 seconds but just switches of the display…

 

[Eggie]

Just keep reading here about all the many different problems people have with TSDZ2 that are either rare or non-existent with other systems. Eventually you'll get it.

I read about a lot of problems with other systems too. I think it’s fair to say every system has its problems. Nevertheless it seems most problems can be solved and at least the tsdz2 is user serviceable (which is big plus for me).

 

[endlessolli]

Just keep reading here about all the many different problems people have with TSDZ2 that are either rare or non-existent with other systems. Eventually you'll get it.

I read about a lot of problems with other systems too. I think it’s fair to say every system has its problems. Nevertheless it seems most problems can be solved and at least the tsdz2 is user serviceable (which is big plus for me).

Also, there is a lot of talk here about the TSDZ2 because there is active development of excellent opensource firmware ongoing - and not only because of problems.
There are weaknesses, but they are few and wellknown - and cheap and easy improvable.
Also, the OSF gives you the option to increase power from std. 250-350W to up to 750W. If you do not use this added power wisely, you obviously generate problems, but that is not the motors design fault.

 

[Elinx]

....
I can’t seem to get to that part of the menu. ...

There are several different ways, depended of the vlcd5
Try:
First press info once, then hold info + power for 3 seconds, then info 3 times.

 

[Eggie]

There are several different ways, depended of the vlcd5
Try:
First press info once, then hold info + power for 3 seconds, then info 3 times.

Thanks, that seems to work. The value of TE1 changes from 86 to higher. What I suppose is the purpose. Back to the drawing board then.

 

[Elinx]

...The value of TE1 changes from 86 to higher. What I suppose is the purpose. ...

Yes, in that case your torquesensor does work.
I don't know (with stock FW) what is a normal value with weight on the pedal.
It could be that the sensitivity is a bit low, but imho in that case you don't get stutter, but less motor assist.

 

[Eggie]

What could cause a stuttering or insufficient power giving motor?
The main reason I put back the stock firmware is that it seemed more stable. I had (actually the same) issues with the OSF of emmabrusa. Also the on-screen options (and computer options) where too much for me. I really want something slick and easy to work with on the go. Also the motor didn’t cut of at the preset speed. I tried adjusting a lot of settings but it didn’t work that well (it’s a 26” wheel).

 

[Elinx]

What could cause a stuttering or insufficient power giving motor?
....

Stuttering is a bit difficult, but insufficient power could be caused by unsensitive torquesensor.
I have read somewhere wit stock fw TE1 with zero load is about 80-100 and with full load (your weight). about 150-200.
So you can get some indication about the sensitivity.

About OSF
In the beginning to enter the right settings and torque calibration is the.most difficult.
But if all is done, the behaviour of Vlcd5 could be the same as with stock fw.

 

[Eggie]

Stuttering is a bit difficult, but insufficient power could be caused by unsensitive torquesensor.
I have read somewhere wit stock fw TE1 with zero load is about 80-100 and with full load (your weight). about 150-200.
So you can get some indication about the sensitivity.

About OSF
In the beginning to enter the right settings and torque calibration is the.most difficult.
But if all is done, the behaviour of Vlcd5 could be the same as with stock fw.

The torque reads 86 on no load and goes up to 156. That seems ok.
On my google quest I found this:
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/intermittent-power-delivery-from-tongsheng-tsdz2-mid-motor-with-torque-sensor.41910/
Could it be the controller?

As for the OSF. I have a 2nd e bike that is almost finished and will experiment more with that bike with the osf.

 

[Elinx]

....
Could it be the controller?...

Because throtthle does work without issues, I can't imagine the controller is faulty.
But in that case it should be something with wiring, connections or moisture.
The difference is with and without the use of sensors. Torque, Speed, Pas and Pedaling

Sensors,
-Torque looks good with sensitivity, but no idea about wires and isultation or wireless connection
- Speed, although the speed is displayed, it does not mean that the controller is also receiving good pulses
- Pas, does work or not. If not, the motor will not run

Mechanical,
- Spragclutch could be slipping with pedaling, but imho you can feel and hear this
- Blue gear could be slipping, but in that case no or a bad throttle use too
- Torqueshaft could be broken, but imho you must see this with the heavy varying TE values under load