TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

[HughF]

What I would like to know is if you feel the "Power Delay Issue" as I measured it and describe it in the videos I made?
Do you feel the delay as I described it in the videos in eMTB mode and Hybrid mode?
Or, on the other hand, you feel the delay, but is it not important to you?

That is a hard one for me to clarify - I don't think I feel a delay, and any delay I do feel, perhaps that is my sprag bearing, perhaps it is the internals of my Alfine gearhub? I don't know...

I suppose I don't pay any attention to it. I will try and pay more attention when I ride this firmware again. I have a road bike that has normal gears and a nearly new TSDZ2, I will try and ride this next to see if the gearing and the sprag bearing are tighter.

If there is a delay there, it is 1/5th as bad as the 1.1.1 firmware.

With AWOP enabled and the threshold set to 85, the motor take-up is instant, I can spin the back wheel just by touching the pedals if I want to. However, you do need to be in a high enough gear so that your pedal pressure will generate enough torque sensor feedback, like driving a turbocharged car, you need some gearing to get the engine to work against.

The takeup performance was at worst 1/4 crank revolution before I adjusted the threshold for AWOP up to this high value. The perfomance in eMTB and Hybrid mode was the same. At assistance level 9, with a non calibrated torque sensor, I was up to 500w motor power within a very short distance.

I don't know what else to say, the performance is fantastic.

 

[HughF]

Thank you HughF for your contribution.

What I would like to know is if you feel the "power Delay Issue", as I have measured and described it in the videos I made?

Do you feel the delay, as I described it in the videos, in eMTB mode and Hybrid mode?

Do you feel a delay of 400ms, 700ms, 1000 ms, or whatever?

Or, on the other hand, you feel the delay, but is it not important to you?

I am not complaining. I am working and spending a lot of my time to improve the firmware. I think that is the goal of everyone in this forum.


I discovered the problem in September 2020 and have been silent until now, waiting for someone to be interested and able to solve the problem.


The firmware is free, and I didn't pay anything for the firmware. So I can't complain.


I mentioned the power mode, because it was in this mode that I made the videos.

But I also tested Torque mode, and I also felt the delay.

I spent 4 months (June to September 2020) until I was able to understand the problem and to be able to measure it.

I tested every possible hypothesis.

I tested the variables:
Current Ramp
min current ADC step
with and without the field weakening
Torque and power mode
I calibrated the torque sensor
startup boost
Assist w / o Rotation pedal
etc

Other users have already stated that the delay exists. They have also stated that the problem is more "visible" in power mode.

Even Mbrusa, he already admitted that he knows the problem. And that will try to solve it.

And I will help mbrusa, if I can and know.

If the problem is solved in torque mode, hybrid mode or eMTB mode, fantastic, great. I am very satisfied.

I repeat:

What I would like to know is if you feel the "Power Delay Issue" as I measured it and describe it in the videos I made?
Do you feel the delay as I described it in the videos in eMTB mode and Hybrid mode?
Or, on the other hand, you feel the delay, but is it not important to you?


Thanks,

Azur

I've just realised, the video you made and the problems you describe with the assistance delay is all running Casainho's v1.0.0 from September last year, correct?

If this is indeed correct then you're posting this in the wrong thread - this is about the latest version from mbrusa which behaves very differently and in my opinion is the version that everyone should be using now.

You should either abandon v1.0.0 or post your videos over in that thread, although Casainho is aware of the problem and it's marked for future investigation.

 

[jeff.page.rides]

A New Subject THRESHOLDS!

If the thresholds, would work correctly it will be a big help! Some work and some don't, I will show what ones work and what ones don't and the ones I haven't tried below.

Motor Power is the most useful and it does not work. I think you should be able to set what motor power thresholds were you want it to be white, yellow, and red. For example, up to 350 watts, it shows white so you enter 350 at the min Max threshold then at 350 it turns yellow, and you enter 450 at the max Max threshold, and at 450, and above it turns Red.

Thresholds will make the graph or numeric field values fade to yellow or red color, depending on the variable value. For instance, as soon as motor speed starts to approach near its max value, the color will fade first to yellow and then to red. You can disable, set to manual or automatic the thresholds. I spent a lot of time trying to get some of these to work trying manual and automatic. Some of the numbers you can set do no relate to what the display shows. Like motor power, you can set it up to 2000 I tried every combo I could and it doesn't work.

If someone out there would get Motor Power display threshold and any of the other displays threshold working that would be great! Having the displays turning colors when you want helps you keep the power in a safe zone just at a quick glance.


This is copied from the Manuel,

Available information to show on display
There are a few variables that can be selected to be shown on the customized numeric fields or graph. Note that only some of them are available to be shown on the graph.

Variable Description

Speed
Tracking speed changes during a trip.
I haven't tried

Trip distance
Amount of kms/mi counted from the startup of the system.
I haven't tried

Cadence
Pedal cadence measured using the PAS sensor inside the TSDZ2 motor.
Does not work

Human power
Pedal human power.
Does not work

Motor power
This value is calculated by multiplying the battery current by the battery voltage.
Does not work

Wh/m
Battery power used by each mile.
Doesn't work

Batt voltage
Battery voltage measured by the TSDZ2 motor controller.
Works

Batt current
Battery current measure by the TSDZ2 motor controller.
Works

Battery SOC
Battery state of charge, based on counting the amount of power pulled from the battery to power the TSDZ2 motor.
I haven't tried

Motor current
Motor current. This value is calculated as: motor current = measured battery current / PWM duty-cycle. Note that PWM duty-cycle value varies between 0 and 1.
Does not work

Motor temp
Motor temperature. Note that if the temperature sensor is not installed, this value has no meaning.
I haven't tried

Motor speed
In ERPS (electric rotation per second) units. The motor has 8 pairs of magnets inside, meaning each 1 ERPs equal to one RPS (rotation per second).
I haven't tried

Motor pwm
Motor PWM duty-cycle. This value can fluctuate between 0% and 100% max. Where 0 means 0 battery voltage applied to motor coils while 100 means max battery voltage applied. When this value hits the max of 100, means that the motor max power possible is being applied.
Works

Motor foc
Angle calculated by FOC algorithm, between 0 and 30. Higher motor phase current and/or higher motor speed make's this value increase.
I haven't tried

Thresholds
Thresholds will make the graph or numeric field values fade to yellow or red color, depending on the variable value. For instance, as soon as motor speed starts to approach near its max value, white color will fade first to yellow and then to red.
You can disable, set to manual or automatic the thresholds.
Max threshold

 

[Goody5]

The temperature control bug is only in the version for 860C-850C.
LCD3 and stock displays should work.
If anyone can confirm this, I have not installed a temperature sensor.

Thanks for the temperature bug fix, Loaded and seems to working good now.

 

[mctubster]

Some feedback for TSDZ2-v20.1C

I have been running the firmware with stock settings, only changes originally to config were setting 36v battery and capacity, street mode.

I am using Hybrid mode on a heavy Cargo bike. The responsiveness with default settings is an improvement over V1.1, moderately faster to detect and start power and also less overrun. Startup using torque mode is perfect.

I just change one setting - Motor acceleration from the default of 5 (after installing the firmware) to 35 (as recommended for 36V motor and 36V battery)

Wow, much more responsive. I assume it has increased the current ramp only?

I don't really have an issue with overrun personally because of the weight of the bike. In the late 2020 firmware for Bosch gen 4 motors they deliberately introduced some overrun (potentially only in emtb mode) and I'm sure they are doing high speed calculations - but essentially they will overrun for a short period of time and I assume have a much faster current ramp to cover a mountain biker pausing pedaling briefly to avoid a pedal strike.

I don't believe this is happening but could be a suggestion for a future improvement - have a faster current ramp if the bike is over a certain speed - that is if someone is already moving over a threshold speed ramp the current faster so the motor can catchup and start applying power faster. The Power only mode I believe has the boost option doing this in a way?

Also wanted to mention I also reproduced the battery voltage replacing the time bug (860c). The setting does not appear to save, so on next power on is back to displaying the time.

Anyway loving the new firmware.

 

[JohnAnanda]

Hi mbrusa, I am also interested to try the sw102 version, if you share. Does the display will be update by Bluetooth?
Thanks You

I had confirmation that it also works on SW102, thank you Nfer and HughF for the tests.
There was a problem in the Torque sensor menu, I split it in two.
Release link https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smart-EBike-860C/releases/tag/v20.1C-860C

It is updated as expected in the wiki https://github.com/OpenSourceEBike/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki/Flash-the-firmware-on-SW102.
Wired the first time, after bluetooth.

20.1C works beautifully on the SW102 indeed, thank you Mbrusa !
The only option I could not see is the "Config shortcut key" in the display menu, but that's no big deal (and maybe just for the 860C).
The hybrid mode and the power mode with boost are a joy in use )

I would like to calculate the electrical consumption per km for various settings and situations. I have a power meter wired to my charger, but I wondered if I could get this info from the screen data, which would be more practical.
I thought the "Wh/km" menu item would do that, but it seems to be calculated over the last minute or km of riding, and not linked to the trip A or B distance.
There is also "Used Wh" and "battery SOC" items, but if I understood, it is an estimation based on the battery voltage and the indicated battery capacity, not an actual measurement. Can this estimation be considered accurate enough for calculating the consumption over relatively short distances, like 10km ?

 

[jbalat]

Hi all does anyone know if this version works on the 850C, asking for a friend...

 

[michih.]

Yes it works....

MFG Michael

 

[trsw3]

Hi all does anyone know if this version works on the 850C, asking for a friend...

I had made it work on 850c and SW102. Worked well!
But I couldn't enter yet street mode and virtual throttle mode from display mode.

I really appreciate all of you.

 

[mbrusa]

@AZUR, there are many posts where you re-propose the video of your tests with v1.1.0, the first time it was useful, after not.
You say you want to do it to help me, ok I believe it and I appreciate it, to prove it though, you should at least try this version. Do not you think?
I confirm that the problem is still there, but much less and it is difficult to reproduce.

I try to clarify. A distinction must be made between standing start and resuming pedaling in motion.
If there is a delay from standstill there are settings with which to remedy, always in any case.
Also for the restart in motion there are settings for improve, "Assist without pedaling" which now works also in motion, "Min current adc step" and also "Torque adc offset".
The problem will not be 100% eliminated, it will be less likely to occur.

I summarize my experience in this regard, last summer trying my previous version, I had this problem reported by friends who help me in the tests. Well I have never been able to reproduce it, I thought about a different use of the bike.
I haven't even thought of a solution, it's hard to fix a problem when it doesn't arise.
This winter trying the new version with another bike, the one I use for testing, I saw the problem.
It mainly occurs after a descent followed by a climb, if you resume pedaling late.
I added "Min current adc step" taken from v1.1.0 and it has improved a lot.
"Min current adc step" is the current value (ADC step) maintained during the movement of the pedals, even without any force detected by the torque sensor.
Only by always enabling "Min current adc step" even without the movement of the pedals the problem never occurs, but this is not acceptable.

Unfortunately at this moment the bike where the problem was evident does not work.
Plug and unplug to blink, the cable coming out of the motor is broken.
Sunday I resumed the tests with the other bike, the one I used last summer, with the same firmware in Power + Boost mode I did not find any delay, plus with "Assist without pedaling" disabled and "Min current adc step" = 0, I haven't had the satisfaction of seeing the problem once.
The only difference is that on this bike, to have an immediate response from a standing start, I have to force the "Torque adc offset" value a lot, and I think this also affects the response in motion. Now I understand why I never saw the problem last summer.
Yesterday I tried a more demanding route in hybrid mode, still no problem. To complete today I will try eMTB.

Conclusion, I have to believe both those who say that the problem is still there, and those who say that it no longer exists.

I will try mspider65 v12 anyway, with my times of course.

 

[StormTD5]

I have tried diffrent mode on startup, weak assist on every mode...

.....
Calibrating the torque sensor
Hope its the torque sensor that is the trouble...

If the sensitivity of the torque sensor is low, a calibration could help a bit, but is not ideal.

I'll give up... I don't understand what's wrong. When I try to calibrate the torque sensor it sometimes show code E03 and a few seconds after that the speedo meter jumps upp to max speed 99,9 km and a moment after that it's jumps down to 42 km and few moments after it's 0km.
I have now the stock firmware again and it's working as before....
I have another bike with a tongsheng. I'll try to flash and see what happens

 

[mallesepp]

....
Conclusion, I have to believe both those who say that the problem is still there, and those who say that it no longer exists.

I will try mspider65 v12 anyway, with my times of course.

Hello mbrusa, for me the current version is perfect! I don't feel any delay. Have tried all of them. 19.0, 20.0, 1.1.1 and now 20.1C. I thank everyone who contributed to this. I am happy. Good ride!

 

[mbrusa]

I'll give up... I don't understand what's wrong. When I try to calibrate the torque sensor it sometimes show code E03 and a few seconds after that the speedo meter jumps upp to max speed 99,9 km and a moment after that it's jumps down to 42 km and few moments after it's 0km.
I have now the stock firmware again and it's working as before....
I have another bike with a tongsheng. I'll try to flash and see what happens

You have to do the torque sensor calibration.
Read the EN-Operating_manual_of _display-TSDZ2-v20.1C manual.
The values you see in the field of speed in the various steps all have a logic.
Unfortunately for you, the VLCD6 display is the most inconvenient for the calibration procedure.

 

[StormTD5]

I have tried diffrent mode on startup, weak assist on every mode...

.....
Calibrating the torque sensor
Hope its the torque sensor that is the trouble...

If the sensitivity of the torque sensor is low, a calibration could help a bit, but is not ideal.

I'll give up... I don't understand what's wrong. When I try to calibrate the torque sensor it sometimes show code E03 and a few seconds after that the speedo meter jumps upp to max speed 99,9 km and a moment after that it's jumps down to 42 km and few moments after it's 0km.
I have now the stock firmware again and it's working as before....
I have another bike with a tongsheng. I'll try to flash and see what happens

I have tried my second bike...AND it works :lol:
Just took it for a spin, it's alive!!!

It's a hardware problem on my other bike, just gonna find out what it is.
I'll begin to change the speed sensor, and then I don't know...
Can it be the display? Both have VLCD 6

My daughter has a tongsheng with coaster brake, now I gonna try to update that too

 

[mbrusa]

I have tried my second bike...AND it works :lol:
Just took it for a spin, it's alive!!!

It's a hardware problem on my other bike, just gonna find out what it is.
I'll begin to change the speed sensor, and then I don't know...
Can it be the display? Both have VLCD 6

My daughter has a tongsheng with coaster brake, now I gonna try to update that too

It is the torque sensor that has a limited range, you solve it with the calibration, you just have to be able to do it ...

 

[Elinx]

....
I'll give up... ...try to calibrate the torque sensor it sometimes show code E03 and a few seconds after that the speedo meter jumps upp to max speed 99,9 km and a moment after that it's jumps down to 42 km and few moments after it's 0km. ....

You wait to long with clicking.
If you wait, after flashing E03 you see 99.9% capacity and 42V of battery.
And after this, you see 0 km/h for speed, that stays a for certain time zero when biking (activating speedsensor), because of odometer compensation.

Calibration:
In level 1 (eco) click 6 times the light button till you see E04
If E04 is flashing don't wait, but click again light button.
Now you see the min. value of torque sensor for about 25 seconds.
Within this time, stand on the right pedal for the max. value.
Write these values down and insert these in the configurator for flashing
done

NB
I don't have a VLCD6, but I understand from mbrusa that the procedure in that case isn't that easy
"Unfortunately for you, the VLCD6 display is the most inconvenient for the calibration procedure."

 

[StormTD5]

....
I'll give up... ...try to calibrate the torque sensor it sometimes show code E03 and a few seconds after that the speedo meter jumps upp to max speed 99,9 km and a moment after that it's jumps down to 42 km and few moments after it's 0km. ....

You wait to long with clicking.
If you wait, after flashing E03 you see 99.9% capacity and 42V of battery.
And after this you the 0 km/h for speed, that stays a for certain time zero when biking, because of odometer compensation.

Calibration:
In level 1 (eco) click 6 times the light button till you see E04
If E04 is flashing don't wait, but click again light button.
Now you see the min. value of torque sensor for about 25 seconds.
Within this time, stand on the right pedal for the max. value.
Write these values down and insert these in the configurator for flashing
done

NB
I don't have a VLCD6, but I understand from mbrusa that the procedure in that case isn't that easy
"Unfortunately for you, the VLCD6 display is the most inconvenient for the calibration procedure."

I have to try harder to get torque sensor calibrated, thank you for your advice! :thumb:

 

[AZUR]

@AZUR, there are many posts where you re-propose the video of your tests with v1.1.0, the first time it was useful, after not.

@Mbrusa, First I apologize if I did something wrong. It was not my intention.

I would also like to thank you for the work you are doing.

Based on mspider65 Version V7 and display firmware made by Casainho and others, you are improving the performance of the TSDZ2 motor.

Great work. Well done. thanks.


I made two different videos.
One showing the "human Power" field and another video showing the "current motor" field. These two tests were done on an uphill road. 800 meters road with 8% slope.

I also made another video on a flat road.

As you refer, it is difficult to replicate the problem, that's why I put those three videos. In those videos I show 3 different test scenarios.

You say you want to do it to help me, ok I believe it and I appreciate it, to prove it though, you should at least try this version. Do not you think?

Of course, I will test your firmware and give you my feedback. I will do it as soon as possible.

IF I had no intention of testing your firmware, I was not spending time writing these posts. My language is not English, so it is not easy for me to make these posts.

After testing your version I will also, perhaps, test the V12 mspider65 version.
Do you know if the V12 works with the 850 or 860 display?

I am very pleased to know that you are already trying to solve this problem. And now, we have two experts working on the subject. You and mspider65. Very good !

I hope I can help and contribute to the solution of the problem. That's what motivates me!

The best way to test and replicate the problem is on an uphill road and without stopping the movement. Just stop pedaling, after PWM is at 100, maximum value, for a few moments. And preferably, only restart pedaling after the motor current reaches 0.
The test should be done on a road with a slope of about 8%.

The delays are also greater when the level of assistance is higher.

Also when the slope is greater, the delay is greater and you probably feel the delay.

The test environment that I set up is a good tool to measure the problem. But a Go Pro camera is required to record, at least the tsdz2 screen.

In the test I did on the flat road, (video I put on this forum) I didn't feel the problem. I just noticed that the problem occurred when I saw the video. It was an accident that I found out on the recording.

It mainly occurs after a descent followed by a climb, if you resume pedaling late.

This is a good example. That is why this problem, in some situations, can be dangerous.

Conclusion, I have to believe both those who say that the problem is still there, and those who say that it no longer exists.

I understand very well what you mean.

I will try to help, testing your version and if the problem still exists, try to replicate it and if possible record and measure the problem.

I try to clarify. A distinction must be made between standing start and resuming pedaling in motion.
If there is a delay from standstill there are settings with which to remedy, always in any case.
Also for the restart in motion there are settings for improve, "Assist without pedaling" which now works also in motion, "Min current adc step" and also "Torque adc offset".
The problem will not be 100% eliminated, it will be less likely to occur.

It mainly occurs after a descent followed by a climb, if you resume pedaling late.
I added "Min current adc step" taken from v1.1.0 and it has improved a lot.
"Min current adc step" is the current value (ADC step) maintained during the movement of the pedals, even without any force detected by the torque sensor.
Only by always enabling "Min current adc step" even without the movement of the pedals the problem never occurs, but this is not acceptable.

Sunday I resumed the tests with the other bike, the one I used last summer, with the same firmware in Power + Boost mode I did not find any delay, plus with "Assist without pedaling" disabled and "Min current adc step" = 0, I haven't had the satisfaction of seeing the problem once.
The only difference is that on this bike, to have an immediate response from a standing start, I have to force the "Torque adc offset" value a lot, and I think this also affects the response in motion. Now I understand why I never saw the problem last summer.

When carrying out the tests, with your version, I will take all of your technical advice into account.

Thanks

Azur

 

[Elinx]

....
Of course, I will test your firmware and give you my feedback. I will do it as soon as possible.
..... My language is not English, so it is not easy for me to make these posts.

After testing your version I will also, perhaps, test the V12 mspider65 version.
Do you know if the V12 works with the 850 or 860 display?

....

Please test first v 0.20.1C and give feedback, that is the straight way.
Many people has the same problem with other language than their own, but that is no excuse to write such long and repeated posts (with complete quotes).
No, v12, made by mspider65, does only work with tsdz2 display protocol and you need a bluetooth module in the middle.

( EDIT Mar 18 2021: There is a first build of v12 for 860C made by Blacklite)

 

[michih.]

I ordered the ESP board. I will test the V12 and then I can tell you whether it works better. I am convinced of that. mspider does not change that for no reason. unfortunately it takes a few weeks to arrive.

MFG Michael

 

[Elinx]

... mspider does not change that for no reason. ....

In the first place, every developer works according to his own vision.
It is nice when the result is published. If that happens via Github, everyone can develop further with it, if the vision is different.
That is why there are different versions of "the same" OSF, but slightly different. "Better" is a personal perception.
So there is a choice for the version that suits you best.

 

[michih.]

OK, I don't give feedback if everyone has different visions.

MFG Michael

 

[Elinx]

OK, I don't give feedback if everyone has different visions....

Why not?
It is always interesting if someone can compare and gives his feedback.
For sure it is interesting to know if there is a remarkable difference between the versions.
My answer had to do with the development of the different OSF versions.

 

[HughF]

Azur, your post is almost exclusively related to the startup and restart delays of v1.0.0/1.1.1 so please, I suggest you post your replies about that thread, in that thread.

Your posts are just noise in here, this thread is about v20.1c which is very different inside compared to the firmware you tested and video'd last year.

Try v20.1c and post about that specific version in this thread.

 

[AZUR]

I ordered the ESP board. I will test the V12 and then I can tell you whether it works better. I am convinced of that. mspider does not change that for no reason. unfortunately it takes a few weeks to arrive.

MFG Michael

Very good, Michih,

I hope you do the tests quickly to see if the "power delay issue" has a solution, on V12, as mspider65 says.

As you have already tested the mbrusa version, you can easily compare and give feedback here on the forum.

You are more advanced than I am. Because you have already done some tests with the mbrusa firmware. I’m just going to start testing.

It seems that mbrusa will also test the V12 to see if there are any differences related to the delay problem.

I will try mspider65 v12 anyway, with my times of course.

I became aware, in September 2020, of the mspider65 version. I never had much interest in testing it. Before moving on to any wireless solution, first I want to make sure that the motor firmware works well, without major problems.

That is why the mbrusa version seemed more interesting to me. Because it uses the displays that we already use in other versions.

Please share the results of the tests with the forum.

Thanks.