Upside Down $$$$$

[Todd]

Good Day Everyone,

I'm looking for your thoughts and experience to help with this issue. It just may not be as rare as I think it is.
I'm using the term “upside-down" in reference to the cash spent on the wrong E bike.
A little back story: I was contacted by a friend asking if I would talk with a gentleman about his e-bike. According to my friend, “he's wondering if it could be adjusted.” This is not the first time this has happened over the years.
Thinking this would be a Q&A session, I gave him a call and met with him and his e-bike in town. We live in Brattleboro Vermont, USA 05301 (42.8503° N, 72.5613° W), a hilly, little New England town with a small E bike movement, having two LBS's selling kits and manufactured e bikes. Now to be clear, their knowledge is brochure/manufactured sales rep-based (for good, or bad; no real “I read online...” talk). In a short time, it was apparent he had recently purchased an e-bike that looked nice.... though would not serve his needs.
His need, as with most in the community, was and is commuting/recreation while overcoming Vermont hills. He's a slender, 6' tall man in his mid- to late-50s. He likes the looks and the bike overall, though not the reality that the brochure must have been speaking to those riding on level ground, “Providing the power, durability and performance you have come to expect from American-built ProdecTech e Bikes, the Rebel X9 is truly in a class all its own.” Yeah, enough said.

The BIKE: ProdecTech: Rebel X9-- $2,999.00+tax --https://www.prodecotech.com/electric-bikes/rebel-x9/
The issues:
1. “ProdecTech: Rebel X9”....36v-front hub motor / 600w on a bike weighing in at around 70lbs. I n Brattleboro, Vermont, this combo does not level hills, or even shorten them. The assist on level ground is but a tease before the next hill.
2. The purchase of a second battery to increase range. Ride time was greatly reduced with throttle at max most all of the time. Cost with tax, approximately $660.00.
The total: He says around $3,500.00. My math equals closer to $3,800.00.

My thought was to sell the bike and extra battery outright, then I would build him a bike that would fit his needs. I would do this for the the love of e bikes, he would be taking a pretty good hit anyways and I'm not looking to take more of his money. What does that look like? We pick up an inexpensive Fat Bike from Bikes Direct or the like (other than the Avid Guide 4 Piston Hydraulic Disc Brakes and the NuVinci N380 Speed Hub it's really nothing special), 1000 watt HD Mid Drive kit – 52volt /13ah pack, internal rear hub, decent mountain front hub, upgrade the disc brakes to BB7's and call it a day, or a weekend. All for around $2,400-$2,500. Now like I said earlier, HE LIKES the bike.
He's asking, “Can I keep the bike, sell the batteries and hub motor to pay the cost of the mid drive and battery? I don't hink this will come close to paying for the new set-up, the parts just don't seem to add up to what is needed. $150.00 for the hub motor, $50 for the BB, crank and chain ring, and then there's the two integrated down tube batteries, unless we were to find someone wanting, or in need of those two integrated down tube batteries that only secure to a few bikes, what can they be worth? $1000?
Now don't get me wrong, all those cells would make a nice 52v 17amph pack, but hell that's a lot of work. Really more than I have time for if he's to ride before..say.. Autumn.

So any other ideas??
Thank you in advance

 

[docw009]

Wow, I would hope the hubmotor/wheel would net at least $200-250 on ebay. Then he has to get a new front wheel. I think it cost me $120 just for an inexpensive 26" fat tire front wheel by itself.

Would a 500W 36volt BBS02 drive from EM3EV get that bike up a Vermont hill? I would hope so? Then he keeps the original batteries. The kit is $459 and maybe add $100 shipping.

Otherwise, can you reprogram a BBSHD to have an LVC for a 36 volt battery?

 

[dogman dan]

What sucks about his situation is his battery purchase. All he needed really, was a 48v system. The front hub is not ideal, but it is not really that big an issue. I've climbed some very big mountains with 1000w on a front hub.

Not sure what to say, but if the grades really are above 10%, then an 800w 36v hub motor will be struggling. Mid drive on 36v would at least give him the ability to grind up any hill slower, without blowing all his watts into heating a hub motor.

So to avoid buying new batteries, a BBs02 kit might be the best bet.

Next best solution, a rear geared motor would have lots more torque than a front DD. ( I think that bike is the 28mm dd, 9c type?)


Edit, now I'm confused, looking up the bike, I see a rear geared motor on a fat bike.

Two batteries, that does open up the possibility of two hub motors. Add another 36v motor? Harder to do of course, on a fat bike.

 

[wineboyrider]

How about 2 36v batteries for 72 or perhaps a booster battery?

 

[dogman dan]

Or maybe, parallel them,, allowing much more amps to a direct drive motor. 36v 40 amps is still 1600w.

Paralleling bms equipped batteries requires no special knowledge or anything, just connect up when both are full.

 

[Todd]

Thanks for the reply Doc009,
I never thought about a 36v mid drive. Here in this area I never consider anything other than 48v as the min., but with the torque difference in the mid-drive it just may work! Using those batteries would be great, they're both new, and design is really clean.
Front hub and spokes are around $50-$60, would take a little over an hour to swap over, tension, and true. The front wheel build goes pretty quickly.
It seems as though I may be undervalued the unneeded parts, hub, throttle, BB, crank and chain ring.
Now some more info on what the controller options of the BBS02 drive is needed. This is looking good.

Calling all BBs02 Gurus ------- In need of your thoughts and experience on the 36v Bafang

 

[Todd]

Edit, now I'm confused, looking up the bike, I see a rear geared motor on a fat bike.

In the rear is the NuVinci N380 it is stock on this model.

 

[Todd]

How about 2 36v batteries for 72 or perhaps a booster battery?

Well the battery's are of a weird design, that is, that mounting them becomes a challenge in the traditional methods but I'm sure something could be done.
I'm thinking remove the cells from the stock housing, reconfigure them in a more traditional housing then mount that, then wire parallel to a mid-drive. A bit of a challenge but if that would make sense to use 36v with 28ah I would consider it. The bike could be used while I mock up and complete the pack.
Any thoughts on --- 36v BBso2 with 36 tooth chain ring and 19 tooth cog on the NuVinci 380 / 36v / 14.25ah X 2 = 28.5ah?????
Sheldon Brown's Internal-Gear Calculator looks like this **** Low 6.4 / High 24.5

 

[wineboyrider]

The 36v bafang is only 500w I believe, but it will handle hills relatively easy allowing you to shift through the gears.

 

[wesnewell]

Read the specs on that thing and one would know that it's way under powered, and the 29E cells are about the worst you can get. I assume it's a 10s5p pack, which is only rated for a .95C discharge. Not even 1C!, which means the whole pack is rated for <15A. Now if he can replace those cells with even halfway decent 3C cells, and a 30-50A controller he could at least climb the hills. The problem with that is he'd probably burn that little motor or gears/clutch up sooner than later. all in all, I'd say the best solution would be to dump that thing and for $1000, built a decent bike with plenty of power.

 

[Todd]

Thank you for your input "wesnewell" it is well received. That was my thought from the start, its like he wants to polish a turd.

" Now if he can replace those cells with even halfway decent 3C cells, and a 30-50A controller he could at least climb the hills. The problem with that is he'd probably burn that little motor or gears/clutch up sooner than later."

That's nothing I'm interested in, 2 wrongs don't make a right, just a more disappointed e cycle enthusiast.
My thought is still a mid-drive to remove any involvement for him in the future with the lbs other than standard bicycle work, if he decides to keep the thing.
Samsung 18650-29E 50 Cell battery is on the Rebel X9 and he has two. Is their no combination with those two packs that make any sense at all to anyone?

 

[wesnewell]

Throw $200 48V 1000W rear DD hub motor on this for $300 for a reliable system. Mid drives will strain the drive train and the Nuvinci. I'd use 12s rc lipo ont he 1000W motor for a top speed of 28-30mph, or any decent premade pack with at least a 30A output rating. I've got a MXUS 3000W motor on the same bike running 88.8V.

 

[Jon NCal]

The 29E battery would be a good match for the 36V 500w BBS02, but it might be hard to find that motor to fit a fat bottom bracket.

 

[WoodlandHills]

I would start with taking the whole ball of wax back to where he purchased it, explain to them VERY clearly that they sold this customer the WRONG PRODUCT, and you really don't want to inform the entire county of this, but would like to see how much of their customers money they would be willing to refund.

Then, start all over again, and, if you don't get a good deal on the above, make sure you take every opportunity to inform the entire county what has happened.

Also, as you have been visited by the RC-Lipo evangelist, it is possible the older fellow is experienced in handling such items, but if not, IMO, those batteries would be a very, very bad idea. Recommending them to every newb who comes along is, again IMO, shortsighted, stupid, negligent, ignorant of human nature, and possibly downright criminal.

My thoughts exactly: how long has this poor fellow owned this bike and was there any warranty at all? Many states also require goods sold to be suitable for purpose and it sounds like a very good argument could be made that this bike is not. I would approach the seller first and see if they are willing to make a deal of any sort. It sucks to go back to the same people you now know took advantage of you, but what can he do....? If they act like jerks, then contact everyone you can think of from Better Business Bureau to any city and state agencies as well as all the local newspapers/TV stations and see if they want to do a consumer affairs story about these new-fangled ebikes.

 

[Todd]

So it sounds like we're all in agreement, this is really just trying to polish a turd. I'll have to break the news to the owner . I'll pass along the sentiments of the thread and go with him and support him in any way I can. Like I said, we're all in agreement to get rid of this bike and start from scratch. He can take the advice here, and start over, or resolve to be unhappy from this point on, and nurse the buyer's remorse piece for all he can.
I do know the owners of the shop. They are well-meaning people. They've been sold a bill of goods by their regional corporate rep, but they need to think about what they're doing. Instead of being helpful, they're doing more harm than good. For a traditionalist, they are a "Grade A" bike shop. They jumped into the e bike world, and they have no interest in being e cyclists. That being said, they have no idea if their product is good or bad. I will help them understand if they open to listening.
Thank you everyone

 

[WoodlandHills]

The bad thing is that the LBS is going to feel like they have been burned by the whole ebike thing and could wind up deep in the anti camp. It sounds like they are out of their comfort zone and took a flyer on a line of ebikes after a salesman stopped by. Hopefully you will be able to start them on the path to being just as knowledgeable about the "e" part as the "bike" part.

 

[Todd]

That's my hopes, we have worked together in the past on community projects like this one http://www.reformer.com/localnews/ci_26100066/bf-community-bike-project-custom-makes-trike.
We'll see

 

[wesnewell]

The 29E battery would be a good match for the 36V 500w BBS02, but it might be hard to find that motor to fit a fat bottom bracket.

I find that hard to believe. It's not even 1C rated. My first 500W controller had a 30A limit. More than twice the rated output of a 14ah pack made with 29E's. I'm not familiar with the BBS02, but I find it hard to believe it comes with a controller with max amperage under 15A, which is higher than the output rating of a 14ah 29E pack. 29E's are crap by about any definition.

 

[dogman dan]

That's why I thought if you did stick with those batteries, you'd need to run them paralleled. Twice the size, they will dish out 15 amps ok I think.

As for a warranty return, I doubt it. Buyers remorse is not usually part of a warranty. However, the shop might be willing to take it back, with only a partial refund since now it's a used item. Or not.

This is exactly the type of situation Jason tries to avoid at E-bike kit. My job is about 10% selling kits. And about 90% telling folks, NO, our kit will not do what you are thinking. If he's thinking we sell a kit that has the power of a 125 cc motorcycle, he needs to think again.

 

[Jon NCal]

The 29E battery would be a good match for the 36V 500w BBS02, but it might be hard to find that motor to fit a fat bottom bracket.

I find that hard to believe. It's not even 1C rated. My first 500W controller had a 30A limit. More than twice the rated output of a 14ah pack made with 29E's. I'm not familiar with the BBS02, but I find it hard to believe it comes with a controller with max amperage under 15A, which is higher than the output rating of a 14ah 29E pack. 29E's are crap by about any definition.

I have em3ev 36v 13.8ah 29E pack. In steeper slopes 20% I do about 700-800w and throttle back to 450-500w on normal 8% slopes. Not worried too much about keeping to exactly 1C limit. Just use cycle analyst to keep an eye on watts and don't run it too hard for very long and don't run it down too much.