What's the best method to put out an ebike battery fire?

[solbike]

Hi, am hoping for advice to ease my mind and reduce any likelihood of suffering to customers or shops who purchase Li-ion batteries (all main chemistries for ebikes) in the event of a combustion like that happened to me this morning. Particularly, what are the best methods to contain or extinguish a fire from a Li-ion ebike battery? For no apparent reason, a lithium ion (36V 12Ah) tube battery I was testing from a little known Chinese supplier came to a smoking and flaming end. The battery had arrived and I'd tested a few from this supplier with no ill effects until the one I set up this morning. It was likely about 80% charged I'm assuming from the others in the small test batch (I had not tried charging it until this point) and as soon as I rigged the system up and flicked the switch there was a loud click and then smoking. Knew things weren't right and so quickly moved it outside just before it became an intensely flaming and smoking little beast. I had a hose and small extinguisher (off a boat) and the two of these controlled it but I'm wondering what the best method I can recommend to others who use these types of batteries would be. I've seen sand, water, salt etc. to be recommended (with water both recommended and not recommended) but am wondering if anyone has some well established protocols to follow or can recommend a brand/type of fire extinguisher suitable for Li-ion battery fires? Dogman - you must have some good experience with this - have seen that very informative video... - some protocols that can be followed by customers and shops alike would be appreciated.

Currently, my thoughts are:
1) Use high quality batteries from reputable suppliers (I typically use Panasonic CGR18650CG cells) but good suppliers won't do custom things so sometimes there is a need to use other untested companies. Definitely can't recommend typical Chinese suppliers after this morning's excitement.
2) Have a bucket of sand or water handy - not sure how much a bucket of sand would have done or if I'd be brave enough to get too close at its peak - I was lucky with a hose nearby but a small amount of water may aggravate the situation perhaps.
3) Charge near a smoke alarm outside or in a well vented and non-combustible area (probably a good idea to include a smoke alarm with each kit) - obviously charging location has to be practical for most people.
4) Have each battery tested by someone competent before handing on to customer - not always practical if selling kits online and they were all tested at the factory (so the story goes).
5) Have a fire extinguisher handy - what type is best?

Any suggestions would be appreciated - am currently wondering if being in the battery business is worthwhile! I highly suggest all ebike users to have a think about this too and be prepared for the un-expected. This is the first of quite a few hundred batteries of mine to spontaneously combust and I got lucky but obviously charging isn't the only time things can go wrong and I'll not be charging next to the bedroom anymore.

Not sure what was the cause and there's not a lot left to do a post-mortem on but as I tested all other components (controller and cables) to be fine I have to assume it was a fault within the BMS or cells themselves. No sign of damage was apparent to the shipping box either. Fuse protected (25A) - that popping may have been the clicking sound perhaps. Any ideas on what can cause a battery to smoke its top upon a simple flicking of the switch - no throttle was used?

Matt

 

[dnmun]

where was the switch in the circuit? sounds like a short that caught the battery on fire.

i have recommended people keep a shovel around since i think it is the best tool to carry a burning pack to a safe spot. water cools it off but the battery still cooks off if it is lipo in thermal runaway.

for me it was a laptop cell that melted its way right out of the end of the laptop onto the floor when we tried to carry it outside on the burned up mattress.

that one was left charging on a comforter on a bed and it went into runaway from overheating imo. maybe the short caused that for yours.

 

[solbike]

Thanks for the info, all batteries are locked into a holder, either within the frame or in a double layered rack. Not sure how practical a shovel would be to get them out of this - whilst it would be good for moving it to a safer and well ventilated place. The switch was a relay type that connected to the BMS. I'm guessing it was a crappy quality BMS that when switched allowed too much current through some piece of circuitry that then blew and fused the terminals, really not sure though. Just a good warning that things will go wrong one day. I'm thinking it needs to be an extinguisher of some sort - perhaps a water type to cool it and then another type to limit oxygen. Using sand on an upright bike it'll be hard to keep it covered because of gravity.

Matt

 

[Rodney64]

From my experience from fires at work Co2 tend to be more reliable than dry powder. The power tends to settle and need rotated 3 monthly.

 

[Rodney64]

One thing I'm going to do tomorrow is buy a couple of cheap extinguishers to put on the carport wall in everyone's face and a smoke detector at my charge station.

 

[TylerDurden]

I don't think you can really put them out... you might move them to a place where they won't destroy other stuff.

Google search results of ES for "extinguish".

 

[dogman dan]

Safe way to get em outside seems the best advice, combined with safe storage. By that I mean don't take a battery off the bike, put on the wood table and charge it overnight. That sort of simple commonsense.

Pretty likely the pack shorted, and nothing is safe from that, not even good ol lead.

 

[Ykick]

Not gonna be able to extinguish very easily. My bet relies on containment and perhaps buy a little time to move outdoors. Bucket of sand can be your friend.

Ugly part of our chosen mode of transport. Easy to forget this is not much different than gasoline stored with a source of ignition nearby.

 

[dnmun]

"The switch was a relay type that connected to the BMS. I'm guessing it was a crappy quality BMS that when switched allowed too much current through some piece of circuitry that then blew and fused the terminals, really not sure though. "

it would help your argument that this was caused by a "crappy quality" BMS if you can show a picture of the BMS and how the fire originated with it.

i just bot a bike battery where the fuse had melted the fuse holder into a molten pile of plastic deep inside the battery pack.

it would help if you can find the fuse on this battery and show us a picture of it.

again i recommend people do not install these inline auto fuses in the little plastic holders inside the battery compartment. i consider it unsafe.

if you wanna use an inline auto fuse, solder it to the positive terminal of the battery, and solder the power lead to that. no spade clips or fuse holders. jmho.

 

[dogman dan]

Yep. I recall Ypedal taking a very good brand name bike's battery apart and finding some shaky jake wiring inside. Bad plugs, that sort of thing.

It's part of why it was so hard for Justin to find a battery he'd be willing to sell.

 

[TylerDurden]

Easy to forget this is not much different than gasoline stored with a source of ignition nearby.

Gas fires can be snuffed with halon, LiPo burns until it is spent.

 

[Ykick]

Easy to forget this is not much different than gasoline stored with a source of ignition nearby.

Gas fires can be snuffed with halon, LiPo burns until it is spent.

True dat and unlike a battery pack full tank/can of gasoline is actually very hard to ignite if little or no Air available. Certainly a major obstacle ahead...

 

[dnmun]

if using a shovel to move the overheated battery shell is not possible, then use thick leather gloves to remove it manually from the rack and have a small 2 gallon metal pail to place it in to carry outside. leather is effective at blocking a a lot of the heat and does not melt like rubber coated work gloves. keep large size diagonal cutters or lineman's pliers close by and cut all wires that you can reach and cannot unplug because they have melted together, especially if it is connected to a charger, as it would most likely be if it catches on fire.

 

[solbike]

Not too much left of fuse or BMS (see images) so hard to know exactly what faulted. My feelings now are that anything can and will fault if given enough time and frequency of use, even a top of the range battery - especially after a couple of years riding where things can get shaken around a lot. Couriers aren't known to be the gentlest breed either and you should nearly assume your battery box has been dropped before reaching you - which could lead toward a short somewhere. I'm leaning toward assuming that one day something will go wrong and it's best to be well prepared and inform others of inherent risks with storing energy. If you have a lithium ion battery there is always the chance that it will burst into smoke and flame but you have to limit these chances and be prepared even though likelihood is remote.

From comments on this forum and a little more reading I would possibly recommend the following to ebike users and espeically shops or locations where Li batteries are stored or sold:

1) Get battery from reliable source - where the brand has been well tested and used extensively
2) Charge in a well ventilated area where if something goes wrong it won't burn a house down - preferably outside
3) Have a smoke alarm next to charging location
4) Once charged, disconnect charger
5) First test bicycle outside in safe area
6) Have a fire blanket and gloves handy - so if something goes wrong you can cover the battery whilst pushing the bicycle outside. Having a spade or bucket of sand won't help much I don't think if the battery is locked to the bicycle in an upright position and if things start going you don't have much time to get it safely outside and will want some protection if you're moving a hot battery - don't attempt to remove from bike unless this is possible to do extremely quickly
7) Get a fire extinguisher - CO2 or water should be useful - suggestions on type?
8 ) Have a hose within reach of charging station - I think that saturating with water will work but it does take a little while and you'll want a reliable flow
9) Never charge or use batteries near where they are stored - a single 36V 8-12Ah battery has a lot of power when spent within a short time and would surely be enough to set a stockpile into inferno I'd imagine
10) Discard battery when range is less than about 60% of original value (suggestions?)

Please send me any other suggestions anyone has, I'm sure I've missed a few key points. I've had hundred to thousands of batteries pass through my hands and haven't experienced anything like this before but it can happen. Even once when stupidly charging a 36V battery with a 48V charger it didn't do this - puffed up like a balloon to near double the size, got quite hot and contorted the rack it was in into a crazy shape but never actually went into thermal runaway - was amazed it could happen at the flick of a switch.

Matt

BMS

Fuse/Switch

 

[dnmun]

coming from the fuse switch in that picture there are two large wires that are twisted around each other several times.

look in that area to see if there are sections of the wires where they travel together where the wires have frayed and there are small spittles of metal on the ends of the frayed wires. it will look like tiny BB's on the ends of the frayed wires.

 

[cal3thousand]

I bought a bottle of this stuff called No-Burn. Going to treat several surfaces with this stuff and see how it handles fires. Will let you know. :wink:

 

[Kingfish]

Lithium fires are of a type called Class-D for Combustible Metals. Dry extinguishers are preferred; if that is not available then have a bucket of sand ready. In the Navy, we could drop burning metal into a stout bucket with a layer of sand and toss it over the side. Without an extinguisher - Sand is the next best ticket to remove the burning metal from contact with air.

A list of Class D extinguishers is found here on Wikipedia.

~KF

 

[dnmun]

when i had a lipo go into thermal runaway, melt through the laptop and then catch the bed on fire, there was no exposed metal. the steel jacket was intact but the entire cylinder was red hot from the thermal runaway inside the can. there was no exposed lithium and the cylinder never ruptured. it was a sony lipo and not the hobby king pouch lipo. i would expect the pouch type to rupture and the contents to ignite in open air.

gloves, dikes, metal bucket or shovel, fill a used milk jug, plastic, with water and keep it close to cool it off enuff to handle during the event. jmho.

don't panic and call the fire department or then you will get shut down by the city inspector. eventually the heat will subside when all the energy is exhausted.

 

[Jason27]

When are people gonna learn to stop buying cheap batteries off internet from China? If you read these forums you will notice problem after problem after problem. I just don't get it.

 

[Rodney64]

When are people gonna learn to stop buying cheap batteries off internet from China? If you read these forums you will notice problem after problem after problem. I just don't get it.

Solbikes asking for help and advice as I have pasted below. Can you guarantee even the well known brands will not ignite.



by solbike » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:33 pm

Hi, am hoping for advice to ease my mind and reduce any likelihood of suffering to customers or shops who purchase Li-ion batteries (all main chemistries for ebikes) in the event of a combustion like that happened to me this morning. Particularly, what are the best methods to contain or extinguish a fire from a Li-ion ebike battery? For no apparent reason, a lithium ion (36V 12Ah) tube battery I was testing from a little known Chinese supplier came to a smoking and flaming end. The battery had arrived and I'd tested a few from this supplier with no ill effects until the one I set up this morning. It was likely about 80% charged I'm assuming from the others in the small test batch (I had not tried charging it until this point) and as soon as I rigged the system up and flicked the switch there was a loud click and then smoking. Knew things weren't right and so quickly moved it outside just before it became an intensely flaming and smoking little beast. I had a hose and small extinguisher (off a boat) and the two of these controlled it but I'm wondering what the best method I can recommend to others who use these types of batteries would be. I've seen sand, water, salt etc. to be recommended (with water both recommended and not recommended) but am wondering if anyone has some well established protocols to follow or can recommend a brand/type of fire extinguisher suitable for Li-ion battery fires? Dogman - you must have some good experience with this - have seen that very informative video... - some protocols that can be followed by customers and shops alike would be appreciated.

 

[dnmun]

mine was a sony, made in japan in the most advanced facility at the time. people talking this 'cheap chinese' swag are just racist idiots.

if the OP would examine the battery that burned up as i asked then we might have an idea of how the fire started.

to me it appears to be an internal short in the battery case, power wires wrapped around ground wires at the end where the fuse and switch are located. neither fuse or switch is needed there, just increase the risk of fire. if someone needs a fuse it should be soldered to the battery positive terminal, and all of the positive power leads should be separated from the negative leads and the BMS in separate sections of the battery. jmho

 

[Punx0r]

I asked on here a while and was assured that there is no metallic lithium in any li-ion battery. It seems any fire is a combination of electrical and burning solvent and plastic.

I'd still vote bucket o' sand as a good way to contain such a fire.

 

[Hillhater]

I posted my solution to this problem a few months back.. just add a charge lead to the pack... :wink:

..So, i "dreamed" up this "Total safety" solution to lipo storage.
A fully automatic storage, detection, and fire control / containment /suppression system, that can be done easily and cheaply by most lipo users.
I have the benefit of a large water storage device ( Swim pool) that should be capable of containing most runaway lipo events, but what i needed was a system for detecting thermal runaway, and rapidly quenching the problem.
Problem solved by a plastic carry bag, a piece of poly string, and a battery fire alarm !
The bag holds the lipo packs, the string suspends the bag over the pool, and the alarm is atttached to the string ( could be in the bag ?).
If the lipo decides to flame, it will melt the bag, drop into the pool, and set off the alarm ! :lol:
( actually, i have such confidence in the functionality of the system , i may eliminate the alarm to enable an undisturbed sleep ! :wink: )
The pool is maybe a little overkill, the Spa, or a bucket of water, or even the bath tub could be used for those in an apartment.
Plenty of room for improvements ( Gucchi bag ?), splash detector ? etc etc...feel free to adapt for yourself ! :wink: :wink: :lol:

But the best response to an burning pack was Lowracer,.. who ignited a large , 3kWhr lipo pack but contained the resulting fireball/meltdown by dropping the whole pack into a garbage can of water.
There is a thread /video on here somewhere.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30040&hilit=lowracer
Water does work !

 

[dnmun]

i was thinking about this again. i wonder how this would have turned out if he had just turned the switch off when it became clear something was wrong. if the heat woulda been contained. or maybe knocked the end cap off with a hammer or on the concrete, and then cut the main wire with some big dikes. to stop the discharge.

this is kinda like a wake up to look around and think what your plan is and where the stuff is to do it.

i don't have lipo but i do short stuff a lot. knock on wood. i just shorted the B- lead of my headway BMS to the 14th cell on a fully charged pack while all the sense wires were connected. reversed the entire circuit, huge spark, but it works still. must be a special input protection diode under that black goop. i figured 50V reversed would kill them.

 

[Ykick]

Regardless of chemistry it's very important to demonstrate respect for ALL high current storage and delivery. It worries me to leave any battery unattended while charging. One of many reasons I like RC Lipo - high charge rate provides fast charge and in my situation, less likely to be left unattended.