What's with the word "Cheater"?

[Santa'sLittleHelper]

I find it laughable when someone says I’m cheating. The only place I have heard it is on the off-road trails here in SoCal. It’s usually said with a smile on their face if in a face to face conversation. I get it more from riding partners that aren’t electrified, but in a joking way. The only place I am faster than them is climbing.

Hate to say it, but your E-bike is not California legal at 1000W and no assist speed limit (I’m sure you know that). So technically you are a cheater and a law breaker on certain trails, but that’s not the way passing Lycra’s are using the term in hast. They have no idea what the wattage of your E-bike is or probably even what the laws are. All they know is you are passing them or approaching them at a speed that is unrealistic. If you are not pedaling at speed, well… it’s obvious that you are motorized (legal or not).

Additional fast 20mph+ riders on trails are always a concern. Heck I spend a lot of time watching for Lycra’s that are much faster than I coming up from behind on the riverbed trails here. Those crazy fast groups are like being passed by a big rig going 90mph on the freeway and can really startle slow casual riders that aren’t paying attention. Lycra's don’t like those rolls reversed.

I’m 57 years old and an avid rider from 25+ years ago. I’ve also rode and raced motorcycles into my twenties starting at 4 years old. I got an E-bike (350W/36V BBS01) as a recovery physical therapy program after a couple surgeries. It worked great and got me hooked on them. Now I’m in the middle of building a custom eMTB that should be useable for just about any type of riding I want to do. It is limited to 750W and ~20mph (via gearing) without a throttle. Those specifications were decided upon for a reason. First, I want my ride to be California legal for all bike trails. I chose to limit my speed with “gearing” because I don’t trust myself. If the E-bike can go faster than ~20mph, I know I will be doing it all the time and abusing my right to ride on the trails I like.

Ignore the ego bruised Lycra’s if you are within the law and speed limits allowed for the trails you are riding, but be aware that when you pass someone under power at 30mph+ on a trail that you shouldn’t be on, even other legal E-bikers might just frown at you and give you a mellow beat-down. Please ride your rig within reason since you are over powered and not speed limited, so you don’t screw it up for the whole industry. :wink:

I’ve been behind gas powered bicycles on the riverbed trails and there is nothing worse than sucking up that stink while pumping pedals. There are abusers on all the bike trails doing things they aren’t supposed to. As E-bikers we really need to set a good example and tone, so we continue to have access to the great trails out there. Above all, be safe and courteous to all; even your angry Lycra’s with a chip on their shoulder.

Just my 2-cents from a lifelong bicyclist and off-road motorcyclist that has supported trail access for outdoor activities my entire life. Let the beat-down begin. Lol… :lol:

 

[craneplaneguy]

All good points. I have a similar background, and now ride two different BBSHD's with tweaked programming, and with gearing on one anyway that allows 35 mph speeds, WHEN PRUDENT! Of course, when I'm on a bike trail, I ride it like any other bike, at similar (or slower!) speeds. I only "get on it" when I know for sure there will be no conflict, and usually on dirt roads/fire roads. Or more common, when town riding and needing to smoothly merge or lessen speed differences with traffic. Quite rare for me to hit 35, but every now and then it's handy. I point this out as I feel no need to (well I guess I do, or I wouldn't be making this post) apologize for having an ebike that fast. It's all in how and when, you use that speed and power. I'm old enough, at 67, to know better, and to keep my speed under control when playing with others. But, when on a dirt road or MUT with a good sight line, with plenty of juice left and it's getting late and I want to wrap things up, I like I having that speed in my tool bag. Mid 20's is saner and safer, I spend a fair bit of time there. Those that think (and I don't mean you) since I ride with over 1000 watts automatically means I'm going to be raising hell on bike trails and causing problems with excess speed and tearing up the trails, bug me. My car goes over 100 mph (I assume), and I go through 25 mph school zones at.......25 mph, same thing, no difference at all. To be lumped in with some idiot doing the worse case scenario with a high powered ebike is something I don't accept. And for sure, I wouldn't be passing a group of road riding lycras, just because I could, if I did, I'd have no problem with a little razzing from them.

I road some trails in Moab last weekend, at a 4 mph average according to my display, for about 3 hours. The last 1/2 mile was a two lane deserted dirt road, so I romped on it, fun stuff. Even then, I made sure nobody was even in eyesight, I prefer to keep my super power a secret and use it rarely! When I DO mix with other mtbr's (rarely) on single track trails, I am amazed on how fast they go, downhill. Talk about dangerous! And, how much they tear up the trail skidding through curves, I've seen them cause way more damage then my gently ridden fat bike, which barely leaves any trail sign at all, 1300+watts and all. Ride on!

 

[WoodlandHills]

I have a couple of Class1 legal eMTBs that we use for trail riding on MUTs and as general all-purpose ebikes. I've done my darnedest to keep the top speed below 20mph and by running a 30t chainwheel and a 34t sprocket on the IGH our max speed is 20.9/21.3 on a long level street as per our Garmin. I figure that riding the same bike on dirt instead of pavement will shave a bit off of the top end making us legal. This means that the bikes will climb like goats in even the lower PAS settings in first gear.....

Its not easy getting the gearing right: I had to make my own oversize 34t cogs for our IGHs from BMX chainwheels since the largest I could buy was 26t. The Mini 30 gives a crappy chainline, but with a Surly Singulator chainguide it's never derailed and it lets the motor spin up fast enough to never overheat.

My point is: I'm not cheating. Our ebikes are legal and it was not easy to get there. As to the other aspect of "cheating", we walk for exercise everyday thus our riding an ebike isnt cheating anyone of anything, least of all ourselves.

 

[MikeSSS]

"If you're not cheating, you're only cheating yourself." An RC sailboat racing proverb, from JK. (Thanks JK, I learn from you!)

I ride an ebike and get dusted by roadies every time I ride. That is my choice, to ride slow and look for critters and such. Roadies ride for fitness and health. Good for them. Same for MTB riders, who also dust me.

Interestingly, and not unexpectedly, I'm invisible to roadies, I wave, they ignore, seems I'm not one of their culture. Old, fat, sitting upright, wearing street clothes and a wide brim hat, is socially unacceptable to them. I used to be one of them, it was great to get a lot of miles, be able to ride at 160 beats per minute for hours and defeat younger, leaner, stronger riders, on far more expensive bikes, by using tactics and treachery. That was then, this is now. (Damn I miss those days)

My wife and I went to The University of Texas, in Austin, people in Austin think of themselves as enlightened. What we noticed was that they were exceedingly judgmental, intolerant, mean spirited and just plain wrong in most of their beliefs. Now we live in San Antonio, people here think of themselves as happy. San Antonians are happy, and also nice and accepting. Besides being nicer and better, people in San Antonio are more correct, than those in Austin, with respect to their beliefs.

If you come to San Antonio, bring your ebike. Ride the King William area, the Pearl area, and the Leon Creek Trail. SA might be 10 miles from the Sun, but you can ride in the shade here.

Remember this: "Cheaters always win" or was it "Winners always cheat", I never can remember which.

About Lance Armstrong, he rides in Austin, if you encounter him on the open road, have a go, and see what happens. Hint: you lose.

"Cheater" ... "Dude it's easier if you coast uphill, get it?" Marco Pantani

 

[WoodlandHills]

In any contest between Lance Armstrong and anyone else on the planet, we all know who is the Loser. And who will continue to be until his name is finally forgotten...... :wink:

 

[eSurfer]

I find it laughable when someone says I’m cheating. The only place I have heard it is on the off-road trails here in SoCal. It’s usually said with a smile on their face if in a face to face conversation. I get it more from riding partners that aren’t electrified, but in a joking way. The only place I am faster than them is climbing.

Hate to say it, but your E-bike is not California legal at 1000W and no assist speed limit (I’m sure you know that). So technically you are a cheater and a law breaker on certain trails, but that’s not the way passing Lycra’s are using the term in hast. They have no idea what the wattage of your E-bike is or probably even what the laws are. All they know is you are passing them or approaching them at a speed that is unrealistic. If you are not pedaling at speed, well… it’s obvious that you are motorized (legal or not).

Additional fast 20mph+ riders on trails are always a concern. Heck I spend a lot of time watching for Lycra’s that are much faster than I coming up from behind on the riverbed trails here. Those crazy fast groups are like being passed by a big rig going 90mph on the freeway and can really startle slow casual riders that aren’t paying attention. Lycra's don’t like those rolls reversed.

I’m 57 years old and an avid rider from 25+ years ago. I’ve also rode and raced motorcycles into my twenties starting at 4 years old. I got an E-bike (350W/36V BBS01) as a recovery physical therapy program after a couple surgeries. It worked great and got me hooked on them. Now I’m in the middle of building a custom eMTB that should be useable for just about any type of riding I want to do. It is limited to 750W and ~20mph (via gearing) without a throttle. Those specifications were decided upon for a reason. First, I want my ride to be California legal for all bike trails. I chose to limit my speed with “gearing” because I don’t trust myself. If the E-bike can go faster than ~20mph, I know I will be doing it all the time and abusing my right to ride on the trails I like.

Ignore the ego bruised Lycra’s if you are within the law and speed limits allowed for the trails you are riding, but be aware that when you pass someone under power at 30mph+ on a trail that you shouldn’t be on, even other legal E-bikers might just frown at you and give you a mellow beat-down. Please ride your rig within reason since you are over powered and not speed limited, so you don’t screw it up for the whole industry. :wink:

I’ve been behind gas powered bicycles on the riverbed trails and there is nothing worse than sucking up that stink while pumping pedals. There are abusers on all the bike trails doing things they aren’t supposed to. As E-bikers we really need to set a good example and tone, so we continue to have access to the great trails out there. Above all, be safe and courteous to all; even your angry Lycra’s with a chip on their shoulder.

Just my 2-cents from a lifelong bicyclist and off-road motorcyclist that has supported trail access for outdoor activities my entire life. Let the beat-down begin. Lol… :lol:

I might have the power, but I don't use it. I am noting but courteous in my riding style, never going over 18 anymore. In fact, I'm annoyed by people on eBikes going super fast on the SART trail; it gives us all a bad reputation.

 

[eSurfer]

Whattaya mean, 'kidding?' Lance Armstrong, the title of the thread, comic timing being what it is. . . .

OK, I have to admit, that was a pretty good one.

 

[dogman dan]

It took me about 6 years to become accepted by the local roadies. The tipping point was one year at the toys for tots Christmas ride. One of the roadies showed up with a beach cruiser, towing a small car trailer. On the trailer, 4 kids in a playhouse. The weather changed just before the ride started, and the route ended up being a 5 mile ride into 30 mph wind.

The roadie and his crew gave it a valiant shot, each taking a turn pulling on a strap to the beach cruiser. They all spent themselves by the second mile. I got close, and asked if I could help. They looked at me, an old man with white pony tail on a longtail beach cruiser, with a very skeptical look said yes.

I grabbed the strap, and gave er 2000w with a 5304 crystalyte rear hub. The rider gave me this look, , then this look, as he realized I was riding a VERY powerful electric bike. I easily towed him in the rest of the way.

Since then,, the crew does smile and wave at me, as they go by. Yes, they dust me all the time, because I prefer 18 mph, for the efficiency and longer range. I still want to pedal constantly, and can't at 33 mph. But the roadies in my town do know now, there is a place for, and a use for, an ebike.

 

[LockH]

Hehe... 21st-Century Urban here, where "bike trails" consist of paved roads... and sidewalks. Rooftops... About anywhere on land.

From years of experience riding many thousands of miles of urban spaces (roads, sidewalks, rooftops, parks... etc) with assist. Before places like Canada - and then provinces - legalized the "power-assisted bicycle" I has to develop my own "Universal Rules of Travel"... seen on ES Bible here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=57283#p854178

:wink:

(Just riffing off OP re "cheating". I've done "it" for decades. NEVer been caught. Not once. That I can recall.)

 

[Santa'sLittleHelper]

I might have the power, but I don't use it. I am noting but courteous in my riding style, never going over 18 anymore. In fact, I'm annoyed by people on eBikes going super fast on the SART trail; it gives us all a bad reputation.

That's good to hear. Personally I really don't care about a few hundred watts here or there. BBS02 750W has over 1000W peak output and BBSHD 1000W has only a slightly higher peak output. How you use and ride it is the key to acceptance in the bicycling community.

Those angry roadies spewing harse comments are directed at any motorized bicycle. They generally now nothing about the E-bike laws, just that you've got one up on them and it's not due to your physical strength and endurance, it's due to your intellectual willingness to accept change.

As for Lance Armstrong, he's not a cheater, he an enhancer! :lol: Everything is a matter of perspective in ones own mind. Ask Tiger Woods.

I do find it interesting that the new BBS02"B" motors have the wattage stated on top of the motor, as well as, on the bottom now...

 

[skeetab5780]

who is this Tiger Woods you speak of? I hear someone by that name making a comeback with the links..hah

 

[craneplaneguy]

I might have the power, but I don't use it. I am noting but courteous in my riding style, never going over 18 anymore. In fact, I'm annoyed by people on eBikes going super fast on the SART trail; it gives us all a bad reputation.

That's good to hear. Personally I really don't care about a few hundred watts here or there. BBS02 750W has over 1000W peak output and BBSHD 1000W has only a slightly higher peak output. How you use and ride it is the key to acceptance in the bicycling community.

Those angry roadies spewing harse comments are directed at any motorized bicycle. They generally now nothing about the E-bike laws, just that you've got one up on them and it's not due to your physical strength and endurance, it's due to your intellectual willingness to accept change.

As for Lance Armstrong, he's not a cheater, he an enhancer! :lol: Everything is a matter of perspective in ones own mind. Ask Tiger Woods.

I do find it interesting that the new BBS02"B" motors have the wattage stated on top of the motor, as well as, on the bottom now...

Exactly, "with great power also comes great responsibility", or something like that. I never go fast, faster then a normal human, faster then a fully juiced up Lance Armstrong anyway (I love that quote, and use it when describing what an e assist does for a bike when talking to newbies) when on any trail where others, hikers or bikers, may be, ain't gonna happen. Briefly and rarely, on a road, the rest of the time I just enjoy the greater torque and acceleration while on my way up to "normal" speeds, 18 mph is my sweet spot most of time. Being a good ebiker with a souped up motor is no different then the more courteous then a average motorists I see, who is driving a Corvette. Think about it, they signal, and are all around better drivers, as they know the spotlight is on them, same with us when we mix with other bikers. It'd be so low class and disrespectful of others (besides being dangerous) for us to go ripping up some trail and passing others, it they were e assisted or not, just because we had "great power". Those that do, (I have yet to hear of any actual problems, just a lot of feared but as yet unrealized problems with this) will and should get dissed by the rest of us. If we are out on our own, say in the boonies of Idaho, with no one around, on a trail or dirt road where MUT is the rule, who cares?

The other thing....the disdain some non throttled equipped ebikers MAY have (not sure about this actually, maybe it's just me) for those of us with PAS AND a throttle. I don't get it. I call my throttle my "variable pedal assist system, VPAS, and refuse to be embarrassed of it. When I hear, "my bike only moves if you pedal, then and only then does the motor kick on", I also hear "yYou, on the other hand, must be lazy, unfit, and NEVER pedal, if your bike has a throttle." Not true, I do consider my throttle a useful aux to the PAS, and mix and match both depending on the terrain. Some trails I ride, there are sections where you can't pedal, as you are down in a rut, (thanks to the horses) and the pedals will hit! Other times I'm going up something so steep and rocky, and I'm very slowly picking my way through, I need to lean way forward to keep the front wheel on the ground, further forward then is feasible to also pedal at the same time.

 

[r3volved]

It took me about 6 years to become accepted by the local roadies. The tipping point was one year at the toys for tots Christmas ride. One of the roadies showed up with a beach cruiser, towing a small car trailer. On the trailer, 4 kids in a playhouse. The weather changed just before the ride started, and the route ended up being a 5 mile ride into 30 mph wind.

The roadie and his crew gave it a valiant shot, each taking a turn pulling on a strap to the beach cruiser. They all spent themselves by the second mile. I got close, and asked if I could help. They looked at me, an old man with white pony tail on a longtail beach cruiser, with a very skeptical look said yes.

I grabbed the strap, and gave er 2000w with a 5304 crystalyte rear hub. The rider gave me this look, , then this look, as he realized I was riding a VERY powerful electric bike. I easily towed him in the rest of the way.

Since then,, the crew does smile and wave at me, as they go by. Yes, they dust me all the time, because I prefer 18 mph, for the efficiency and longer range. I still want to pedal constantly, and can't at 33 mph. But the roadies in my town do know now, there is a place for, and a use for, an ebike.

DUDE! That's a great approach!! Kudos

 

[Wolfeman]

I get that a bit at work. I simply smile and ask them if they drove their car to work. If they reply, "yes" I smile and ask them who the cheater is. My bike is my daily driver and I'm smiling all the way to work and back. If someone calls you a cheater, feel bad for them, they obviously don't understand how fun these things really are. 8)

 

[eSurfer]

I get that a bit at work. I simply smile and ask them if they drove their car to work. If they reply, "yes" I smile and ask them who the cheater is. My bike is my daily driver and I'm smiling all the way to work and back. If someone calls you a cheater, feel bad for them, they obviously don't understand how fun these things really are. 8)

Right on, Wolfeman. I am blessed to have my house and my job close to the SART trail. There is no better way to commute. Loads of fun and a good feeling knowing you are not polluting the environment nearly as much as car drivers.

 

[Jestronix]

Here's what does us in, When I was 18 I owned the road , drifted corners at 80mph, got air born , you name it, invincible, darn idiot when I look back. So give a kid a 10kw bike and what happens in some cases ? Open it up shell be fine, its only a matter of time till someone's killed on a some trail and there'll be a major crack down. Pretty much to the point where on a normal ebike you'll be booed of the trail . It's a negative view but I know it won't be long. Either that or some knobber out running cops on an ebike on live TV , check YouTube now 100kmh on motor ways etc it will reach peak idiot at some point.

 

[amberwolf]

I don't really have people calling me a cheater (I think it's happened once or twice back when I rode "normal-looking" bikes)...but today, I had someone in an SUV yell out their window as they passed me at about twice the speed limit that I was cheating (though I couldn't quite hear exactly what they said over the roar of their engine, it sounded an awful lot like "frocking cheater!".

So that's a new one on me.

 

[eSurfer]

I don't really have people calling me a cheater (I think it's happened once or twice back when I rode "normal-looking" bikes)...but today, I had someone in an SUV yell out their window as they passed me at about twice the speed limit that I was cheating (though I couldn't quite hear exactly what they said over the roar of their engine, it sounded an awful lot like "frocking cheater!".

So that's a new one on me.

That behavior makes no sense, must have been lycras. But it becomes obvious that some people think putting an electric motor on a bike makes someone a cheater. I think it's all because they are not the kings of the bike trail anymore, where nobody could catch them, or even keep up. Now an older guy on a cheesy, homemade eBike (like me) can smoke them and it makes them mad. No longer the crown princes of the bike trail.

Let me clarify; I don't smoke people anymore. Once the newness of going 35 on a bicycle wore off, I began to find it more comfortable to go 17 or 18, which seems to be a typical average speed for the serious lycra bikers.

 

[999zip999]

Esurfer that because you live in the right part of the city you got to get out to the country down south. If you have 20ah come down. See a horse or rattlesnake.

 

[eSurfer]

Esurfer that because you live in the right part of the city you got to get out to the country down south. If you have 20ah come down. See a horse or rattlesnake.

Horse? Rattlesnake? What are those things you speak of? LOL

Drove by your area this morning on my way to San Onofre to surf. Love it down there.

 

[999zip999]

Yea the trails are opening up. Have trails by the east end of pico S.C. to trestles then south thru camp Pendleton with ID 2 Oceanside. I was talking to a group of bikers who said they're going to take the freeway from San Clemente to Oceanside sounding like they get a special permit permit for the freeway ? I think camp pendleton is better. Plus we have the hills of San Juan Capistrano. It's quiet here.

 

[Mündawg]

I usually ghost pedal too. Takes the focus off your ebike.

I was behind a Sheriff the other day going down a mountain road near my house. I ghost pedaled for 2-3 miles behind this cop so he wouldn't get suspicious that i was keeping up with him going 20-25mph for 3 miles.

He musta thought i was the next Marco Pantani
Mündawg

 

[Eskimo]

People are way more cool with us now than four years ago. Tesla has done a lot, people are now realizing that electric propulsion WILL be the next big thing globally, and we get part of that acceptance. Four years ago atmosphere was paranoid towards e-drive, IC-engine still ruled minds. Attitude now is basically "if you behave we don"t give a damn what you ride". Cops are actually the most tolerant ones here. They recently told publicly, that they have orders only stop those e-bikes which are clearly breaking the traffic laws or clearly creating a danger.
Thank you, Tesla.

 

[footloose]

... Once the newness of going 35 on a bicycle wore off, I began to find it more comfortable to go 17 or 18 ...

Same experience. Now goose it once in a while but mostly stay below 20 unless coasting down a hill. Find that on my most frequently ridden bike (the bamboo/bbs02/nexus8 build) I mainly stay in gears 1-2-3 and let the motor spin. First gear climbs great and maxes about 12mph on flat. 2nd and 3rd max around 15 and 18 respectively. For my uses moderate speed is turning out to be where I spend most of the time.

 

[WoodlandHills]

My experience as well. I am thinking of going back to a 3-speed hub from a 5-speed since I only use three of the five anyway. 8 to 12 mph on the climbs and 20 mph on the descents is plenty fast enough for me, thank you...... Despite the electric power, I still end up riding at bicycle speeds on bicycle trails. Any faster and I miss stuff on the trail side, like deer, fox and once even a bobcat!