wich 24v up hill motor do you suggest for giant cypress lx

[sharinginfos]

HI i have this bike in aluminum my guess.
i could not confirm the drop outs but my mesurements give me 100 mm front and 12something in the back"can someone confirm this?

i need help to climb hills . i dont need speed on flat nor huge distances. i weight 160 and will carry cargo for camping. i can pedal but have a wouded knee.
at first glance i m looking for a front wheel motor since messing with rear involves cassettefreewheelchanginggears . would there be big advantages in placing the motor at rear ? i ask myself the question... but at first glace front wheel would be more simple.

battery (firesafe so lifepo4 only). Yes i know that 48 v is more polyvalent but i cannot find a way to buy or assemble one without spotwelding so I am atm looking at 24 volt used battery from batteryhookup
two or three of those in parrallel 24V 9.6ah 245.8wh K2 Lifepo4 Battery w/ BMS K2B24V10EB
so 20 or 30 amp .

what is the motor that has best climbing ability at 24v that fits 100 mm front fork?

i dont know a lot but a plus or minus friend told me to look at xiongda and Q series?
if you happen to know the draw of the motor you suggest, let me know it will help me choose the battery and controller for it.

 

[Chalo]

Have a look at Stokemonkey. It's not a currently available product, but it's easy to reverse engineer, cheap, effective, and configurable. That's most likely your best bet for what you describe, if cost and serviceability are factors.

 

[sharinginfos]

hello chalo what do you mean by but it's easy to reverse engineer ?
I see that monkey allow you to pedal without resistance when not in use right?
if they are not available, what are the #copied# versions that are available atm?
Thanks

 

[Chalo]

hello chalo what do you mean by but it's easy to reverse engineer ?

I mean it doesn't take any special manufacturing to recreate one for yourself. Just figure out where the hub motor can mount on your bike, get a left side tandem crank for it (or a right/left side drive BMX crank), and hook it up. Coming up with dummy dropouts is the hard part, and it's really not very hard.

I see that monkey allow you to pedal without resistance when not in use right?

Yes. You use a single freewheel on the hub motor which overruns when you pedal without using the motor.

A geared hub motor with a clutch won't work in this application, because you have to be able to run the motor in reverse.

 

[calab]

Cool, I had to search the left tandem/bmx crank.
Sheldon Brown - How to build up your own tandem crankset

 

[offGridDownUnder]

As a possible option, there are some of these still for sale:
SM_Bracket

 

[offGridDownUnder]

HI i have this bike in aluminum my guess.

Did you intend to put a link or picture in?

I put a Grin All-Axle on the front wheel of my Tern S8i, and it provided enough torque to break traction on up hills. I put another Grin All-Axle on the rear wheel of my Cruzbike, and it never broke traction.

Another approach would be to use a mid-drive. Have you already discarded that approach for some reason?

 

[UtahPete]

If you're looking for a simple solution, 24v LiFePO4 is not it.

 

[sharinginfos]

Did you intend to put a link or picture in?

I put a Grin All-Axle on the front wheel of my Tern S8i, and it provided enough torque to break traction on up hills. I put another Grin All-Axle on the rear wheel of my Cruzbike, and it never broke traction.

Another approach would be to use a mid-drive. Have you already discarded that approach for some reason?

here is picture of what i have.
I am open to mid drive yes if it is not too expensive and have good review

is there a place to look at to find a model no serie on the front fork since im not sure if it is a stock fork

 

[offGridDownUnder]

i need help to climb hills . i dont need speed on flat nor huge distances. i weight 160 and will carry cargo for camping. i can pedal but have a wouded knee.

'climb hills', 'cargo for camping', 'wounded knee' and looking at your bicycle frame. I have damage to several joints, which leads me to electrify my bicycles. I want to keep moving.

There are people here (who hopefully will chime in) with more experience than I have, but my 3 conversions have all been successful so I'll give my opinions too. Of the three, the Tern (front drive) was the least successful. I need traction going up hill, and that was the worst on that score.

'camping' and 'climb hills' says you want to go off paved roads (although it may fit with bicycle touring/camping only on paved roads). A motor on the front wheel will slip, even on paved roads, and up hill isn't the best place for this to happen - you will be loading your knee then to recover. That frame is for comfort and isn't oriented towards significant off road work. It's fine, but not really designed for scrambling or air-time.

The money or other resource I spend on something can't be spent on something else, and I take that into account when weighing up the value of what I get. Unless I was certain I wasn't going more than very occasional short distance off-road on firm surfaces I would not put a front hub motor on that bicycle - I know I would not be happy with the results, based on having a front hub on my Tern. With any loose surface I would expect to be exhausted after a few hours from wrestling with a loaded bicycle slipping sideways and having to slam my feet down.

Please confirm that the inside-face-to-inside-face of your rear frame dropouts is 120mm, or 135mm, or what it measures out to be and let us know. Also, please measure the width of the frame part of your bottom bracket. I would say you either need a geared rear hub with a freehub for a cassette or a mid-drive or a stoke monkey. The mechanical details of those measurement allow real choices about motors.

You mention your battery choice, and I don't know your commitment to that choice. An option might be to put two in series to make up 48V, as well as to use them in parallel at 24V. The motor choices possible will decide what battery you need, so those measurements are the starting point.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Also, looking again, I see that frame supports rim brakes. Your bicycle will have a battery, motor, and camping gear weight added. Wet rim brakes don't brake well.

Adding frame fittings to a steel frame is possible, even if expensive. You can't add disk brake mounts to an aluminum frame - 7075 can be left for a month after welding to recover, 6061 must be re- heat treated after welding, and you'll need a jig to hold all the alignments as well as a facility that can do that.

A hub motor with regen can add useful braking - my hub motors bring all my conversions to walking speed without any other brakes. A mid-drive or stoke monkey (in your case) can't. (My stoke monkey IS a hub motor, but you can't do that with your geometry.)

If I were really strapped for cash, then I would consider going ahead with the least expensive, most practical option, and just accept the limitations it would put on my use - most likely paved-roads only with very short travel on not-challenging non-paved. I would still find places to go that I enjoy. My current trike is also not built for serious off-road, but I can ride in the grass and on 'gravel' roads.

A regen hub motor on the front wheel can provide real braking assistance downhill, although it can/will slip on uphills.
A mid-drive will handle uphill well, but can't help with braking. A stoke monkey will be largely the same in those regards.
A rear regen hub motor will handle uphill well, and help with braking.

So, what's the inside-to-inside frame width at the rear axle of your frame?

 

[sharinginfos]

there is a w after the giant cypress lx on the bike so giant cypress lx W size medium. the guy i bought it from said it has more than 10 years.
hi the best mesurement i can take is aroud 140 143 mm dropout back and 69 70 mm for the middle part where you pedal
it looks a lot like this Cypress LX W (2013) | Giant Bicycles Australia

 

[offGridDownUnder]

there is a w after the giant cypress lx on the bike so giant cypress lx W size medium. the guy i bought it from said it has more than 10 years.
hi the best mesurement i can take is aroud 140 143 mm dropout back and 69 70 mm for the middle part where you pedal
it looks a lot like this Cypress LX W (2013) | Giant Bicycles Australia

You could drop the back wheel and do the measurement. From what you write above it seems you are likely to have a 68mm bottom bracket (the most standard size) and probably can fit a 135mm rear hub. All up, you have many many motors that can fit - so that isn't a barrier.

An accurate measurement is worth the time before you spend several hundred dollars on a motor.

You also haven't mentioned where you ride, so we can't know the legal framework you have to satisfy. In the US, it seems you can run a 750W (nominal) motor with a throttle and no pedal sensors. In Australia, an electric bike controlled only by a throttle is an electric motorcycle and is illegal unless it's been certified as a motorcycle and the rider carries the proper tags and insurance. Police in Sydney are tackling people riding illegal bikes to stop them, and as the collisions mount, I expect both a loosening of the requirements and also more of a crackdown on meeting the requirements nationwide.

Given you can (probably) fit a standard motor, I would chose a hub motor with regen that provides a freehub to mount your cassette. A mid-drive will not help with braking, but a hub motor with regen will - I adjust my brakes so there is some obvious free play before the actual brakes make contact, but the switch signals the motor earlier - the motor slows the trike without any actual brake wear, and the real brakes are there for emergency stops.

That is a step-through aluminum frame. You do not want to do air-time on that frame - it will crack. If the load on steel is kept below its fatigue limit, it may last indefintely, but aluminum will always crack due to fatigue - it's just a question of how soon.

Given what you write in total, I suspect your budget may be limited, and so I'll give this advice - you can spend a lot of money trying to save money because you buy stuff that doesn't actually work together, do the job, etc. If you have a local seller who can provide the kit, then you have someone to talk to about what works and what doesn't, and to complain to if it doesn't do what it says.

If not, I would pay for a Grin kit. They have Ready-to-Roll kits with regen for rear wheels - their own All-Axle (premium, but no internal gears to fail), or the SX2 with the regen mod, or the GMAC. The R212 is a large, heavy, powerful motor and with those brakes, I wouldn't choose it.

I will receive my age pension next year and retire. I can't do the mechanic work I did when my body was younger, and I can't push hard up hills (joints, not muscles - I can develop muscles, but the joints are shot). I'm choosing now so that I don't have hassles later - and I think buying quality now is part of the way to accomplish that.

But if your priority is to learn about electric bicycles, buy anything you want, and then the extra money you spend getting it all to work goes towards the learning, and you won't mind. "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."

 

[sharinginfos]

You could drop the back wheel and do the measurement. From what you write above it seems you are likely to have a 68mm bottom bracket (the most standard size) and probably can fit a 135mm rear hub. All up, you have many many motors that can fit - so that isn't a barrier.

An accurate measurement is worth the time before you spend several hundred dollars on a motor.

You also haven't mentioned where you ride, so we can't know the legal framework you have to satisfy. In the US, it seems you can run a 750W (nominal) motor with a throttle and no pedal sensors. In Australia, an electric bike controlled only by a throttle is an electric motorcycle and is illegal unless it's been certified as a motorcycle and the rider carries the proper tags and insurance. Police in Sydney are tackling people riding illegal bikes to stop them, and as the collisions mount, I expect both a loosening of the requirements and also more of a crackdown on meeting the requirements nationwide.

Given you can (probably) fit a standard motor, I would chose a hub motor with regen that provides a freehub to mount your cassette. A mid-drive will not help with braking, but a hub motor with regen will - I adjust my brakes so there is some obvious free play before the actual brakes make contact, but the switch signals the motor earlier - the motor slows the trike without any actual brake wear, and the real brakes are there for emergency stops.

That is a step-through aluminum frame. You do not want to do air-time on that frame - it will crack. If the load on steel is kept below its fatigue limit, it may last indefintely, but aluminum will always crack due to fatigue - it's just a question of how soon.

Given what you write in total, I suspect your budget may be limited, and so I'll give this advice - you can spend a lot of money trying to save money because you buy stuff that doesn't actually work together, do the job, etc. If you have a local seller who can provide the kit, then you have someone to talk to about what works and what doesn't, and to complain to if it doesn't do what it says.

If not, I would pay for a Grin kit. They have Ready-to-Roll kits with regen for rear wheels - their own All-Axle (premium, but no internal gears to fail), or the SX2 with the regen mod, or the GMAC. The R212 is a large, heavy, powerful motor and with those brakes, I wouldn't choose it.

I will receive my age pension next year and retire. I can't do the mechanic work I did when my body was younger, and I can't push hard up hills (joints, not muscles - I can develop muscles, but the joints are shot). I'm choosing now so that I don't have hassles later - and I think buying quality now is part of the way to accomplish that.

But if your priority is to learn about electric bicycles, buy anything you want, and then the extra money you spend getting it all to work goes towards the learning, and you won't mind. "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."

i dont care much for regulation unless they cant go on air plains . i ll be a low speed anyway. will mostly use the motor for the hills
what is the meaning of air time i cant find a decent translation. you say it will crack. do you mean if i use it all the time?

how regen is important for ? does it really put a significant amout of energy back in the battery
all axle is a direct drive i think. i read somewhere that they give resistance when you want to pedal while not using the motor is that true?

i kind of dont see on the pages of grin what voltage they are?and nb of amps required . what about that you know?

how would you compare those 2 you suggest to xiongda 2 speed motor 48v?

 

[offGridDownUnder]

air time i cant find a decent translation

"air time" means jumping so you are off the ground. Mountain and BMX bicycles do a lot of this.

Apart from the rare manufacturing defect, your frame will carry you on roads without potholes for many years. Poor roads will shorten its life, and cracking becomes a possible failure mode.

Regen is not for energy recovery on a bicycle - it is useful for not overheating or wearing out the brakes. You will read many knee-jerk opinions that "regen is dumb" because it won't recover more than a few percent of your battery use. Probably true. But not important - it's having a way to slow that doesn't overheat or burn out your brakes which makes regen valuable. People using regen may go many many miles without replacing their brake pads and it's a benefit for long down hills when your brakes are likely to overheat and fail.

Having said that, it's also true that Grin has done the measurements and says the little power you can recover from regen easily provides enough to trickle into the motor all the time to overcome "motor cogging", which means the resistance of the magnets to rotation (they 'grab' each pole as it does by - you can feel it when you rotate the motor by hand). That means "electric freewheeling" and uses so little power that the regen input provides it "for free". Grin says you'll use less electric power overall with "electric freewheeling" than you will with a mechanical freewheel and no regen.

The All-Axle and the SX2 will run on 36V. I run them on 48V. The electronics cares about the voltage, the motors don't - but of course, a motor may have some circuit boards inside, so you do want to find out before connecting. 36V or 48V is not an issue with the Grin motors, and I don't know about so many other manufacturers. If you look at the Grin kit pages, they include a section where you select the battery (if you want to buy it with the motor). All the batteries they list work with all of their kit - which means 36V to 52V or more.

I've read about the Xiongda and it seems a clever idea, but I have no knowledge of it's quality or performance or quirks. The generic aluminum-extrusion case for the controller gives me pause about the possibility of water ingress, but that can be done correctly - I would want to verify that before I purchased. It does not appear to offer regen braking.

I don't think the Xiongda does regen, and if not then you are relying entirely on v-brakes to stop you.

 

[Chalo]

"Regen is not for energy recovery on a bicycle - it is useful for not overheating or wearing out the brakes.

Right. It's good for overheating your motor, which won't be getting the cool down cycle it would otherwise get on deceleration. It can cool down after it loosens its axle nuts, ejects the wheel, and violently decelerates you on the pavement, though.

Brakes are made for braking. I think they're the best tool for that job.

 

[99t4]

I'll give another-- contrasting-- opinion on regen braking, based on my experience. My riding environment is very hilly and I have noticed measurable battery recharging as well as welcome much reduced brake pad wear. Have not encountered excessive motor overheating from regen braking. The (actual) battery recharging is modest (less than what the Cycle Analyst optimistically reports) but helpful. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 - 20%. The extended brake pad life is better 60% or greater.

 

[sharinginfos]

Right. It's good for overheating your motor, which won't be getting the cool down cycle it would otherwise get on deceleration. It can cool down after it loosens its axle nuts, ejects the wheel, and violently decelerates you on the pavement, though.

HI Chalo
english is my second language and i think you might be using a kind of humor ,anyways, could you explain the idea that you are trying to convey in other words please so that a get you point? are you saying that the regen activity can get the motor to even higher temps?
why would it loosen its axle nut?
than the temps it would get by going up hill?
I feel that you say that regen is not worth it ?
thanks

 

[Chalo]

are you saying that the regen activity can get the motor to even higher temps?

Yes. All the wheel torque you develop by regen braking heats the motor the same amount as forward drive torque. If you use real brakes, the motor can be cooling down during that interval.

why would it loosen its axle nut?

Reversing torque tends to make fasteners back off a little bit each time the torque reverses. Repeat it enough times and you can undo the axle nuts completely.

I feel that you say that regen is not worth it ?

For me, it's not at all worth it. But I'm able to keep my own brakes working well, and not afraid of replacing brake pads every year or two.

Even "proportional" regen braking is much less controllable and effective than real brakes. It's like driving a car with standard transmission and only braking the drive wheels with engine drag.

 

[sharinginfos]

Yes. All the wheel torque you develop by regen braking heats the motor the same amount as forward drive torque. If you use real brakes, the motor can be cooling down during that interval.



Reversing torque tends to make fasteners back off a little bit each time the torque reverses. Repeat it enough times and you can undo the axle nuts completely.



For me, it's not at all worth it. But I'm able to keep my own brakes working well, and not afraid of replacing brake pads every year or two.

Even "proportional" regen braking is much less controllable and effective than real brakes. It's like driving a car with standard transmission and only braking the drive wheels with engine drag.

i M so glad you explained that to me. makes sense. Both grin and clevercycles told me not available and will not be available in future.
how do xiongda 2 speed hub q100 128 compare to middrives in general to go up hill with cargo?

 

[sharinginfos]

Right. It's good for overheating your motor, which won't be getting the cool down cycle it would otherwise get on deceleration. It can cool down after it loosens its axle nuts, ejects the wheel, and violently decelerates you on the pavement, though.

Brakes are made for braking. I think they're the best tool for that job.

since stoke monkey are not available, i look at gng mid drive.
those 2 gng models are 24v
1brushed New 250W (Brushed) 165usd plus62 shipping

2not specified GNG 2019 450RE

the first one is not expensive but how good is it?​

could one use these motors while keeping their 21 speed available or do we lose some central pedaling wheels?

thanks