Willing to pay $ for guidance and mastermind needed! i want to build a 48v headway cell 16s 1p

eMark said:
The Battery Doctor said:
I can give you some advice for free. Don't trust Headway! The few times we have seen larger (premium) headway batteries they usually have dead cells and large imballance after a few years! And 8AH cannot handle 200A! Thats wishfull thinking. Boosted got busted since A123 2500mah cells could not handle 70A! Reseller later revised the rating to 50A but that is NOT for cycle life! What are you gonna use A 48V8Ah battery for?
Worth posting again with respect to those $5 (USED) Headway cells via BH. Assuming your Controller's amperage draw is rated at 7amps continuous and 15amps peak then that's easy-peasy for those 200A Headways (when new) even if only now usable for pulling no more than 50-80amps.

That said, it's likely you'll have a challenge keeping the cells balanced in your 16S1P DIY with used Headway cells. That's why no one would ever charge you for advice when building a pack with used cells of questionable quality.

Yet ... a worthwhile learning experience (one way or the other) along your DIY battery build journey. Only one way to find out. You should pre-test (capacity/IR) if possible and pre-balance the cells before your DIY build ... GOOD LUCK!
hello Emark, What do you mean by I would have a challenge keeping the cells balanced? is there a way to apply setting so that the battery pack only operates in a window smaller than the weakest cell i would have allow? like to parameter the pack to only use 90 pourcent of the cell with lowest capacity? i just want something safe that i will not have to open and fiddle around after BUT i am willing to replace a weak cell from time to time since headway is easy to assemble. or maybe find out what voltage X is the weakest cell and only charge the pack to a voltage a bit even lower that X volt. is this a good idea?

i looked at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nPJFM4cLFY where the guy talks about top balance with bms , top balance with active balancer and the third bottom balance wich does not seem like a good idea...

I feel kind of lost see my questions at last post.. can you bring clarity please thx
 
Those $5 Headway cells are likely unused, but "outdated". Assume storage conditions were not the most favorable. So how many you buy to end up with 16 cells as similar as possible is a guesstimate. Hopefully, the ones shipped are from the same manufacturing run so you'll only need 16. Just to be safe in event 3-4 someday need to be replaced after so many cycles i'd order at least 20 cells (so all are from same manufacturing run).

One popular (1865/2170) method to balance a Headway 16s1p is with a Daly LIfepo4 16s (Smart BMS) ... https://www.amazon.com/DALY-Protection-Bluetooth-Communiation-Programmable/dp/B09WMWCH66/ref=asc_df_B09WMWCH66/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=598342985678&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12794599226982304162&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9019693&hvtargid=pla-1688549526948&th=1

If it were me i'd also attach another set of two 8s Balance Leads (JST-HX connections) wired into your 16s1p pack ... https://www.amazon.com/Balance-Extensions-8S-JST-XH-each/dp/B00CD9VGGI ... remove the male JST-HX ends for attaching wires to your 16s pack while maintaining use of the female JST-XH end.

Purchase at least one (or 2) ISDT BattGo BG-8S Tester (Cell Monitor, Capacity Checker, Balancer) ... https://www.amazon.com/ISDT-Battery-Meter%EF%BC%8CLCD-Capacity-Balancer/dp/B07797N9BG?th=1

Suggest you FIRST use just one (or 2) BG-8S to experiment balancing your packs' 16 cells. Time consuming depending on imbalance. Hopefully you'll be able to balance all 8 cells in an 8s string within 25-50mV of each other (at least within 100mV) depending on outdated condition.

You may find with this BG-8S method you'd only need to balance cells of your 16s1p Headway pack every 3-5 discharge cycles (HOPEFULLY) to maintain all 16 cells at least within 100mV of each other. IMO the iSDT BG-8S really isn't designed for cells (e.g. 16) having an imbalance from the most to the least that's greater than 150mV ... which could be the scenario with those $5 Headway cells.

If me i'd seriously consider attaching those two 8s JST-HX balance leads to your 16s1p battery and purchase an 8S CHARGERY Balance Charger to manually balance your Headway pack should i decide to build a 16s2p (32 cells) pack to extend cycle life as long as possible ... https://www.chargerystore.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=59 ... i'd still buy at least one iDST BG-8S to periodically monitor pack cell balance as well as FIRST determining the condition of all 16 cells and how long it takes to balance 8 cells of an 8s string to within 100mV of each other ... if in fact that's possible with that iDST BG-8S considering outdated cells. Then how long it takes to balance 8 cells in an 8S string from say 100mV to 50mV of one another (if even possible). Could be enuf of a challenge balancing all 16 cells of those outdated $5 Headway cells within 100mV of each other with that BG-8S.

BEST OF SUCCESS ... :bigthumb:
 
My mistake as they aren't new/outdated, but are USED ... https://batteryhookup.com/products/used-headway-38120-hp-3-2v-8ah-lifepo4-battery

If me i'd seriously consider attaching those two 8s JST-HX balance leads to your 16s1p battery and purchase an 8S CHARGERY Balance Charger to manually balance your Headway pack should i decide to build a 16s2p (32 cells) pack to extend cycle life as long as possible ... https://www.chargerystore.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=59 ... i'd still buy at least one iDST BG-8S to periodically monitor pack cell balance as well as FIRST determining the condition of all 16 cells and how long it takes to balance 8 cells of an 8s string to within 100mV of each other ... if in fact that's possible with that iDST BG-8S considering outdated cells. Then how long it takes to balance 8 cells in an 8S string from say 100mV to 50mV of one another (if even possible). Could be enuf of a challenge balancing all 16 cells of those outdated $5 Headway cells within 100mV of each other with that BG-8S.
In order to use that 8S CHARGERY Balance Charger on your 16s1p Headway battery you'd have to split the pack for charging as an 8s2p or if 16s2p battery as an 8s4p (just while charging). You'd need to makeup a Y cable for connecting to the two 8s balance sensing connections (8s2p) as well as a Y charging cable with XT60 or XT90 for the split 8s2p for connecting it to the CHARGERY charge cable ... you have to solder on XT60 or XT90 connection to the ends of your homemade Y charging cable as well as the CHARGERY charge cable as it doesn't come with a connector.

If my DIY build suggestions are getting too involved ... then pay the price to buy a quality 48V battery with name brand A-grade cells with a 'SMART' intelligent active balancing BMS. Buying those USED Headway cells is still a gamble (IMO) as a 1st time e-build battery with used cells (questionable quality) by a newb ... "I have read a lot but still noob" (rhymes with boob and newb).

You should be confident ENUF to know how to go about pre-testing for beginning with 16 good cells, then monitoring cell condition along battery cycle life, then your BMS method for balance charging your 16s1p DIY build and last but not least proper use for achieving optium cycle life. Checkout the DIY BH project build with used Headway cells ... https://batteryhookup.com/pages/customer-projects

A 48v 32ah battery powering a Honda 2005 CRF250X dirt bike using our Headway cells

Edward_Merlock_480x480.jpg


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Edward_Merlock1_480x480.jpg


All of these BH build projects with used cells (questionable quality) are fabricated by experienced DIY builders. Builders that know how to pre-test individual cells to determine the best cells to use as well as battery maintenance and use for optimum cycle life ... :thumb:
 
From 10years ago people have had problems keeping headway balanced. Maybe they were trying to keep them at 3.6v
Lifepo4 has little stored energy above 3.5v they can be charged higher to3.7v without damage . But no reason as it doesn't store much energy above 3.5v . Yes some energy.
 
HEllo Mark and all ,

i have been away prioritising my health.

i would like to evaluate the option of buying new to know what it would cost and what i would get. i made couple searche using #buy 48v battery 'SMART' intelligent active balancing BMS# but i did not find anything that looks like a battery, Google results are all parts balancers and bms but no ready made battery.
Would you kindly be able to find a couple of options that would resemble my need (min 15amp continous and low amp hour , just to get up 2 hills ) that would help me decide to go new or diy.

i looked today at those 2 used ready battery 24V 9.6ah 245.8wh K2 Lifepo4 Battery w/ BMS K2B24V10EB

What are the cons of going with those? Correct me if i am wrong but since they are closed battery probably spot welded, one major down side is that if one one the cell in the battery is weak or malfuncionning, the whole battery becomes unusable cause i will not be able to monitor the cells independently nor to replace a cell if it need to be replaces. Am i correct? what other downside do i need to be aware of ?

have a good day

If my DIY build suggestions are getting too involved ... then pay the price to buy a quality 48V battery with name brand A-grade cells with a 'SMART' intelligent active balancing BMS. Buying those USED Headway cells is still a gamble (IMO) as a 1st time e-build battery with used cells (questionable quality) by a newb ... "I have read a lot but still noob" (rhymes with boob and newb).
 
Well, a used automotive type of battery is likely to be better than a new ebike battery of the same cost, primarily because the EV-grade cells are probably higher quality to start with, and more likely to have been matched in characteristics (nothing to do with matching voltages) during pack manufacture, so more likely to stay balanced over most of their lifespan and give you more capacity for more of that lifespan. A cheap ebike battery (well, really most even the costly ones) is not likely to have matched cells, so is unlikely to deliver full rated capacity for long, if ever, and less likely to behave well under higher loads (vs the specs it claims).

Both are just as "closed system" (you can cut them open to fix them if you have to, but not generally designed to be repaired). So this is not any different with any battery, generally.

If you want to monitor individual cells, you could open up the case of any battery and wire in a battery monitor, either directly or by just wiring in a sense connector to the cells to connect external monitors to. Or add a BMS with cell-monitoring you have access to the data of (this could mean replacing the BMS or just adding it in parallel to the cell connections, and not using it's power connections for your system, only using the original one's). There are threads around the forum with more details on doing this kind of thing.


Regarding the 24v batteries: To use those in a 48v system, you'd need to series them. If the BMS in them is not designed for the higher voltage, then as soon as one of them shuts off it's output to protect it's cells for any reason, it will have full system voltage across the FETs, and they can fail. This usually causes them to stick on, which means the BMS is now unable to protect the cells--the output cannot be turned off anymore. So the cells can be overdischarged, or currents higher than they can handle be drawn from them, etc. This is a silent failure, so you won't even know it has happened most of the time, until cell damage has already occured (which can lead to fires), and pack behavior becomes different enough to be noticed by changing the bike's behavior. Sometimes the FETs fail open, so all power just cuts off and can't be restored by recharging or resetting. There are external electronics (diodes, etc) that can be used to minimize this problem, but it's more stuff (and money and effort) to add to the system and more stuff to potentially fail. There are threads around the forum with more details on doing this kind of thing.
 
Well, a used automotive type of battery is likely to be better than a new ebike battery of the same cost, primarily because the EV-grade cells are probably higher quality to start with, and more likely to have been matched in characteristics (nothing to do with matching voltages) during pack manufacture, so more likely to stay balanced over most of their lifespan and give you more capacity for more of that lifespan. A cheap ebike battery (well, really most even the costly ones) is not likely to have matched cells, so is unlikely to deliver full rated capacity for long, if ever, and less likely to behave well under higher loads (vs the specs it claims).

Both are just as "closed system" (you can cut them open to fix them if you have to, but not generally designed to be repaired). So this is not any different with any battery, generally.

If you want to monitor individual cells, you could open up the case of any battery and wire in a battery monitor, either directly or by just wiring in a sense connector to the cells to connect external monitors to. Or add a BMS with cell-monitoring you have access to the data of (this could mean replacing the BMS or just adding it in parallel to the cell connections, and not using it's power connections for your system, only using the original one's). There are threads around the forum with more details on doing this kind of thing.


Regarding the 24v batteries: To use those in a 48v system, you'd need to series them. If the BMS in them is not designed for the higher voltage, then as soon as one of them shuts off it's output to protect it's cells for any reason, it will have full system voltage across the FETs, and they can fail. This usually causes them to stick on, which means the BMS is now unable to protect the cells--the output cannot be turned off anymore. So the cells can be overdischarged, or currents higher than they can handle be drawn from them, etc. This is a silent failure, so you won't even know it has happened most of the time, until cell damage has already occured (which can lead to fires), and pack behavior becomes different enough to be noticed by changing the bike's behavior. Sometimes the FETs fail open, so all power just cuts off and can't be restored by recharging or resetting. There are external electronics (diodes, etc) that can be used to minimize this problem, but it's more stuff (and money and effort) to add to the system and more stuff to potentially fail. There are threads around the forum with more details on doing this kind of thing.
Hi Amberwolf
hum ok so i can forget those 2 batteries then thanks for those info.
your help is greatly appreciate here.
if i read you correctly, buying used lifepo4 cells from a automobile pack would be better than buying a new ebike battery lifepo4 pack. Correct? Or maybe you were refering to li-ion regular cells?
How can you know if the automotive lifepo4 cells you buy on a site have the same caracteristics? Do you have to buy a big used car battery alltogether?

Are those lifepo4 automotive batteries pouches? how do we assemble them(please dont tell me by spot welding )( i can solder yes)
The used headway from BH are inexpensive but i dont know how to assemble the other parts that mark proposed. Much more importantly i would need to know concretely how much time and manipulation they would require once the pack is done. He said every 3 or 4 cycle might need to rebalance. what does that manipulation look like? is it difficult and long?does it mean the pack need to be opened?

My battery need is small (xionda 2 speed 48v 15ampmax) only to go up 2 hills and a bit of km not many really .something light preferably (in my back backpack) It think less than 15 ah would be more than enough.
I dont want to invest a lot because i need to test my motor first , it is my first bike convertion. To be honest it scares me to build a battery because i dont know enough (knowledge and xp )to decide what device to choose for the pack , and how to balance. i stuggle with emotionnal trauma so i am inconsistent in my time available for building a pack . I long for more autonomy, freedom and go uphill without too much knee pain.

if i had all the pieces decided for me and somewhat of a guide how to assemble i could do it but starting from scratch is to big for me. Is there a way you could help me like maybe you have automotive lifepo4 cells with same caracteristic(i dont want li ion regular) spare that i could buy from you ? or maybe an old lifepo4 battery still working and SAFE i could buy?

My idea was to find a way to have good enough lifepo4 to test my motor and meet my need for uphill right now(pain in the knees is handicap) . To try and see how much do i like e biking too. it does not make sense for me to pay 700 dollar for a battery that i will not use to its full potential and maybe my motor will not work ... i prefer starting small.

do you have suggestions? what would you do im my place?

wheredo people buy @same batch automotive life po4?@ are they All hi amph? I am not sure i need a 100amphour heavy battery.

thanks
 
Well, a used automotive type of battery is likely to be better than a new ebike battery of the same cost, primarily because the EV-grade cells are probably higher quality to start with, and more likely to have been matched in characteristics (nothing to do with matching voltages) during pack manufacture, so more likely to stay balanced over most of their lifespan and give you more capacity for more of that lifespan. A cheap ebike battery (well, really most even the costly ones) is not likely to have matched cells, so is unlikely to deliver full rated capacity for long, if ever, and less likely to behave well under higher loads (vs the specs it claims).

Both are just as "closed system" (you can cut them open to fix them if you have to, but not generally designed to be repaired). So this is not any different with any battery, generally.

If you want to monitor individual cells, you could open up the case of any battery and wire in a battery monitor, either directly or by just wiring in a sense connector to the cells to connect external monitors to. Or add a BMS with cell-monitoring you have access to the data of (this could mean replacing the BMS or just adding it in parallel to the cell connections, and not using it's power connections for your system, only using the original one's). There are threads around the forum with more details on doing this kind of thing.


Regarding the 24v batteries: To use those in a 48v system, you'd need to series them. If the BMS in them is not designed for the higher voltage, then as soon as one of them shuts off it's output to protect it's cells for any reason, it will have full system voltage across the FETs, and they can fail. This usually causes them to stick on, which means the BMS is now unable to protect the cells--the output cannot be turned off anymore. So the cells can be overdischarged, or currents higher than they can handle be drawn from them, etc. This is a silent failure, so you won't even know it has happened most of the time, until cell damage has already occured (which can lead to fires), and pack behavior becomes different enough to be noticed by changing the bike's behavior. Sometimes the FETs fail open, so all power just cuts off and can't be restored by recharging or resetting. There are external electronics (diodes, etc) that can be used to minimize this problem, but it's more stuff (and money and effort) to add to the system and more stuff to potentially fail. There are threads around the forum with more details on doing this kind of thing.
Hi could you check this battery to know if it has the same probleme please? would want to pay for something not fit.
 
Makes for a bulky battery, but you can buy the cell holders and bus bars from Battery Hookup or other vendors.


Then make a 1x12 or 2x6 array. Wire the cells in series.Add a 16S LIfePO4 BMS. If you don't know what that means, buy Micah Tolls book on amazon on making ebike batteries.


View attachment 328556
Hello I was asking those same questions 2 months ago. ES is the go to for knowledge. Also YouTube has a video for dang near everything if you don't like to read, and rather listen. Another great source of knowledge and components is Grin technologies and Jehu Garcia. Thanks to Grin and JG for sharing such valuable information. So I guess my point is Start reading and listening. BTW I've already built my first pack 12s4p ebike battery. I hope this information helps you.
 
BTW I've already built my first pack 12s4p ebike battery.
Perhaps you could share pics and info of your parts selection and build process, and where you got all the parts from, and performance results so far, for others to follow?
 
HI i want to build a safe lifepo4 48 v 16s 1 p pack to test my motor and start using my xiongda 2 spêed.the controler asks for 15 amp peak and since i might up my motor or add another one in future, i figured out that a 30 amp or 60 amp pack would be futurproof and the cells allow it.



I know that used 8Ah Headway cells from Battery Hookup are garbage. Most were < 5 Ah. They were supposed to be 8Ah brand new and advertised for about 80%. half were about 40 and the rest around 60%.

ebay has a lot of 8 brand new 10 Ah for $80. 16 is required for 48V. I was tempted to order but then found this on ali express.

  • Voltage: 48 V
  • Capacity: 20 AH
  • With Built-in High quality BMS ,Battery have overcharge, over discharge, over current, short circuit, charge equalization of automatic identification and protection circuit.
  • Battery Size :260*200*100 mm
  • Type :LiFePo4 Battery pack
  • Weight: 7.6Kg
  • Standard Charge Current 5A
  • Max Charge Current 30A
  • Max Charge Voltage 58.4V DC
  • Battery Resistance ≤10mΩ
  • Rated Discharge Current 50A
  • Max continual Discharge Current : 62A ( can be customized)
  • Pulse Discharge Current : 200A
  • Discharge Cut-off Voltage :42.5V
  • Charging method : CC/CV(Constant Current Constant Voltage)
  • Lifecycles : More than 6000 times .


I heard some bad stuff about ali express selling fake LIFEPO4 so am investigating the company who manufactures those.

I get it that you need some good advice and started my own post of LIFEPO4 batteries here. LFP reverse polarity.

I also built several packs with used A123 cells from Battery Hookup. Two 5S 8P and a 7S 8P for 17S. Also a 3S - 3P pack from piss poor used 8Ah Headway cells. They all are currently running. I can run 43V or 56V. However with six e bikes I need a lighter 52V 16S pack for my 700c and 27.5 full suspension. 17S 8P is heavy. I can use them for my 20" ebike with the 1,800 watt brushless motor as lower center of gravity so handles better.

I never owned new Headway and am a little skeptical. I got lucky with the first batch of used A123 as was easy to solder as all had tabs. The last batch not as no tabs and almost impossible to solder to. I have been looking at spot welders but also skeptical as I read that they often fail miserably and need replacement parts too often. I had a cheap $24 one that shot flames out when trying to weld with it. Looking at an AC spot welding machine but hear they break as well.

Good luck as I am seeking the same answers as you. Where to get the best deal possible on a 16S LFP battery. I need at least 20 Ah and 60 amps continuous discharge. I would rather buy at least one that is manufactured and maybe get a spot welder in January for a winter project for all the A123 cells lying around that solder don't stick to.



Skyler.
 

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Im curious why would some a123 would be easy to solder tabs and some would not be . do you have hypothesis?
your here button is not on
 
would toss the lead-free solder, then toss the cells soldered with the lead-free solder. The temp needed to melt the lead free solder, and the increased wetting time would pretty much ensure the cells are wrecked. It's a an tough situation to solder them under ideal circumstances and not damage them internally. Doing it with lead free means the cells had quite a lot of extra heat and wetting time.
if you read on another post states this
When the aluminum is oxidized the solder will just form in a little ball and flick off easily.
No amount of heat will solve that.
Rough it up and put the flux on very quickly after that.
If you are lucky the solder will flow and spread nicely.
This is my idea of a big solder iron.



If the cells did have any tabs on them you could solder to the cells tab, I read a lot of Doctorbass posts on that and his Makita tool batteries.

Another option is to utilize ( if a123 has ) the threaded post mount on the battery cell itself and use the bar system to conduct electricity in the manner you want. I would prefer this method over any of the solderless/tabless methods. I know the Lifepo4/Headway guys can do that method (BMSBattery has Post Mount), but also the hard-body prismatics (OSNPower)
 
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