Window AC converted to central. First 94F day of season #6 page 9

[Matt Gruber]

electric bills dual zone 10EER vs. goodman 13EER
2018..............vs.......2017
June 29.64............................34.99
July 41.53..............................39.75
Aug 43.42.............................49.36
Sept 42.63.............................45.50
TOTAL 157.22........................169.60
Down 7.3%, BUT only
700sf AC.................vs.............1100sf AC
I've got neighbors that pay 150+ every month, so using ac efficiently is more important than a more efficient AC.
The real test is heat cost this winter. Goodman was a heat pump, we will see what plain resistance heat costs. I'm guessing +40 to +100 but it could be more.
Post your bills! What do you pay?

 

[markz]

Numbers are all fine and dandy, but what was the electricity rate in those 2 years. Mind you 1100sqft vs 700sqft and 7% reduction.

Winter heating can be expensive. Gotta wear warm clothing indoors to save some ca$h.

electric bills dual zone 10EER vs. goodman 13EER
2018..............vs.......2017
June 29.64............................34.99
July 41.53..............................39.75
Aug 43.42.............................49.36
Sept 42.63.............................45.50
TOTAL 157.22........................169.60
Down 7.3%, BUT only
700sf AC.................vs.............1100sf AC
I've got neighbors that pay 150+ every month, so using ac efficiently is more important than a more efficient AC.
The real test is heat cost this winter. Goodman was a heat pump, we will see what plain resistance heat costs. I'm guessing +40 to +100 but it could be more.
Post your bills! What do you pay?

 

[Matt Gruber]

mark
same kwh rate both years .10/hr
You are sure right that heat can be expensive In 1997 the ac guy was waiting for a part to fix my heat pump, so i used the 5kw oven, and it cost an extra $100 for 2 weeks
So that deterred me from window ac's.
Until i learned how to get cheap heat. 2 ways:
1. free solar. on cool sunny days i reverse the whole house 40w fan, and it pushes down hot attic air into the living room, den and kitchen. This is not as often as i'd like, but it makes the house nice and warm when it works.
2. 3, 240v baseboard heaters in my BR run on 120v. This keeps my BR warm during cold snaps. And only 175w each. (rare to need all 3).

 

[Matt Gruber]

So we are having a heat spell. Last 2 days was 92, morning low 80. Zone 2 doing a great job with zone 1 off.
Today i woke up early and another hot morning so i turned on zone 2 at 5am, but, since the attic does not get hot before 10am, i left gable fan off. FORGOT to turn it on, so at 230pm, i noticed it was getting hot in here, and it was only 89, BUT attic was 108F. Gable fan now ON. very late 1st time i forgot.
So, a good torture test for units 2+3. I felt sorry for them working so hard in 108, so i shut off zone 2 and switched on zone 1. I was done in the kitchen anyway. Attic down to 103 in 1/2 hour.
Now i know what will happen if the gable fan ever burns out.

 

[amberwolf]

You could put a thermal switch on the fan so whenever air gets above whatever temperature you want, it switches on automatically.

You could put a second thermal switch at a much higher temperature that shuts down the A/C units to prevent damage. My guess is 130-150F range is probably beyond their operating ability, but it's probably in their specs somewhere.

 

[markz]

morning low 80

Florida eh! That 80F is 27C which in my books is a hair high for outdoor chillaxing.

Maybe a move is in order, taking Chalo's advice.
Any deep oil wells being drilled anywhere in the FLA state?

Lemme search
Hahahahahahahaha no dice - https://www.drillingmaps.com/florida.html

There i$ $till hope for Florida, offshore
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/09/climate/trump-florida-offshore-drilling.html

Perhaps get on a rig in the Gulf, take a swim on the shores of Texas
http://mysweetgreens.com/5-polluted-seas-world/

The Atlantic Ocean (Gulf of Mexico and North Atlantic)
As the second largest expanse of water (after the Pacific Ocean) it is unsurprising that the Atlantic Ocean is home to some of the world’s worst pockets of pollution. One of which is centered on the basin in the Gulf of Mexico.This enclosed section, surrounded by the USA, Mexico and Cuba, is known as one of the largest dead zones in the world. The water in the Gulf is highly polluted with nitrogen and phosphorous which has come from American agricultural practices. This means the water is hypoxic (low in oxygen) and fish cannot survive here.

Chillaxing on the cheap
Cooling by Lifehacker - https://lifehacker.com/no-central-ac-no-problem-six-ways-to-keep-your-home-c-729713655

Whole-House Fans

Whole-house fans may seem old fashioned, but they're enjoying renewed popularity. The idea behind them is simple: A powerful fan draws cooler early morning and evening air through open doors and windows and forces it up through the attic and out the roof vents. This sends hot air up and out, cooling your house and your attic. These fans are commonly mounted in an upstairs stairwell or hallway ceiling where there's at least 3 ft. of clearance above the fan.

......Chillaxing on the cheap in a cheap mobile home with cheap a/c in a drilling state with a large fresh water lake.
Man the only thing that comes to mind is Lake Okanagan's Kelowna or Penticton BC. Maybe my native friend can set me up on the reserve, whats that movie called? "White Boy Rick" :lol:

Naaa gotta go for a double wide next to the canal Skaha Lake side. $45k + $650/m in lot rental fee. Beach 400m away! Skaha Lake would be cleaner fresh water then Okanagan Lake.

https://www.homesteadingtoday.com/threads/how-to-cool-a-mobile-home-with-no-a-c.252583/

I used to have a sprinkler hose (the flat type with holes punched in it) running the full length of the roof. I'm sure it won't do much for the lifespan of the roof, but it did wonders for the inside temperature.

Always draw air through the house from the shaded side. when i was a kid we used to put the fan in the window on the sunny side of the house blowing out. the other thing is close it in the morning after a cool night to keep the cool in longer. hope this helps!

Anything you can do to shade the mh will help. You'd be amazed the difference if you could move the mobile home under a big tree. I know that isnt probably possible but you could for example make a arbor/trellis over the mobile home and get some vine to cover it or suppose you could put some kind of ag shade material over the arbor instead. Even cheap tarps would work but dont allow for ventilation.

There's a reason the old folks down here built houses that had rooms with 10 foot ceilings, painted white exteriors, and considered shade as one of the most important factors when choosing a homesite.

My suggestions
- A bunch of mirrors on the roof!
- Use fake plants people throw out, place on roof.
- Do the water on roof, but have it recycled to save on the water bill. Then when the water gets to a certain temp then just dump it and get new water flowing. Better yet, if you could, just use a water pump from canal, river, lake.

 

[Matt Gruber]

amber,
i do have a tstat on the fan, but until today, i forgot how to change the set point. have to do a short click to reset, and i was doing a long click
so i moved the ON to 93F from 85F. that should give good automatic operation. Auto OFF at 89 (was 81 all season)
needed to to do a no fan test anyway, and it did not trigger the compressor overheat safety switch (they come with this). There is a guy on utube that put a window ac in his car trunk and he had to bypass that switch as anytime the car sat in the sun, it would go over 122F and not work. Not a good idea due to the small size of the trunk, but kudos to him for trying a crazy idea.
.
mark
Did run the whole house fan this morning for 15 minutes. 80F not cool enough, but good to have a change of air.
Did NOT know gulf coast water is polluted! Thanks! Glad i'm on the east coast where the fish are happy. NSB is very popular with SHARKS! One bit my toe years ago and i never went back in the water.
Have 2 sycamore trees that give some shade, especially the workshop late afternoon.
Do have 10 foot ceilings w/ceiling fans. Helps a lot.

 

[Chalo]

My suggestions
- A bunch of mirrors on the roof!
- Use fake plants people throw out, place on roof.

It's easy to find white paint with reflectivity up to 90%. Some of it is made for roofs. Look up "elastomeric roof coating". I used some on my house, and it really helped.

 

[markz]

Wont breach 50F all week here.

I personally like 70F(20C) outside with some overcast and a slight wind.

Went down to the hq in Texas a couple times, I was sweating the moment I stepped off the plane and onto the walkway bridge.

Indoors for sleeping I always have a 12" fan on and on high, it gives a background noise that helps with the tinnitus (ringing in the ears) but also is recommended for a good sleep. Yes even in our cold cold winters the bedroom fan is on.

Roof vents with electric fans that can spin either direction.
Ventamatic Cool Attic 1600 CFM Power Gable Mount Attic Vent - Model# CX1600UPS - (98) - $63.95 <--- four of those $250 6400CFM
iLIVING 6100 CFM Power 36 in. Single Speed Shutter Exhaust Fan - Model# ILG8SF36S - (5) - $380.57

CFM Calc - https://roofvents.com/active-ventilation-products-attic-vent-calculator/


Ideal setup - Air Conditioners running on solar power....
....or if you have the space and access to a ton of wood for free/ultra cheap..... biomass wood fuel generator.
Takes up a "some" space, it is a "tad" noisy, requires a "bit" of wood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM8UCAAKTrA

Pristine Oceans....
East side in the house - https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/01/us/florida-algae-pollution/index.html

Fri July 1, 2016 - Jordan Schwartz, owner of the Ohana Surf Shop, said he wanted to cry when he saw the green slime -- a toxic algae bloom -- covering his swath of Stuart Beach on Florida's east coast.

Not too far away - 80yr old Dam could burst - https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/09/us/lake-okeechobee-in-florida-a-polluted-bubble-ready-to-burst.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-farago/on-big-sugars-pollution-o_b_9208280.html
Big Sugar just means the sugar industry itself

observations on the massive destruction caused by the release of hundreds of billions of filthy water from Lake Okeechobee — thanks to Big Sugar’s control of the Florida legislature and Congress.

Historic January rains in Florida are draining from the center of the state and coating both east and west coasts with polluted farm runoff, mostly from Big Sugar.

More sugar comes from Florida than anywhere else in the country.

It’s grown in a 700,000-acre region between Lake Okeechobee and the Everglades

 

[markz]

Ah thanks Chalo, I never knew that, I learned something new today!

Would it be wise to paint the side of the house with that paint or would it be too reflective and annoy people?


Made for roofs - Painted metal roofs, maybe that stone/ceramic/plastic or manfucatured interlocking roofs (other then asphalt) could be painted
Do people use colored paint on wooden shake roofs?
http://www.paintpro.net/articles/pp305/pp305_roofing.cfm

Never use a waterproofing, sealant or other coating that creates a film or otherwise encapsulates the wood. Wood roofing needs to breathe, therefore, penetrating oil finishes are best for cedar shake and shingle roofs.

It's easy to find white paint with reflectivity up to 90%. Some of it is made for roofs. Look up "elastomeric roof coating". I used some on my house, and it really helped.

 

[Matt Gruber]

My suggestions
- A bunch of mirrors on the roof!
- Use fake plants people throw out, place on roof.

It's easy to find white paint with reflectivity up to 90%. Some of it is made for roofs. Look up "elastomeric roof coating". I used some on my house, and it really helped.

I do the opposite My roof has no insulation. Sun heats the attic which, with a fan, heats the house in winter. The rooms have R30 in the ceiling. Not having a problem with summer heat in attic, as long as the 20" window fan, 74w, is ON. Units 2+3 dump condenser exhaust into attic!
Unit 4 will have 12" flex duct to gable vent.

 

[Matt Gruber]

mark
FL is a huge state. I'm not anywhere near those towns. I'm east of Orlando. Like 338 miles to Miami.
Most annoying problem was brush fires a few years ago. The tap water quality has gone down; they treat it twice a year with Chlorine. I use a filter then.

 

[Chalo]

Would it be wise to paint the side of the house with that paint or would it be too reflective and annoy people?

Elastomeric roof coating is just white paint, in terms of how it looks. I expect that there are other white exterior paints with similar reflectivity.

Note that when it's cold, a warm roof with this stuff painted on it will radiate out much less heat than a normal dull colored roof. (Convective heat losses would be about the same.) Reflectivity and emissivity are fundamentally the same quality. High reflectivity in any given wavelength means low emissivity in the same wavelength. So you're looking for a paint that's "white" in the thermal infrared range.

 

[Matt Gruber]

24 hours hobby labor so far to convert the Artic King into a plug in, central ac module(will be called unit 4).
Almost done, but got 3 splinters in my right hand, so i'm taking a break. Doing the duct adapters in plywood so it will last forever, and be strong (test units were made from boxes and styrofoam).
Also going to make a simple 2x4 stand so it will sit up higher and be directly in line with the gable fan.
Not sure when i will hook it up, as units 2+3 work so good, i may let them run another year.
Great to have an inside hobby when it is still hot outside. Morning low today was 81F.
.
to connect 2 ac's the quick easy way, here is a Y for $52
https://www.zoro.com/allegro-duct-to-duct-connector-12-in-w-slvr-9550-y/i/G8576662/

 

[Matt Gruber]

pic showing the ac to 12" round duct adapters. The 12" hose just pops into the 11.75" hole. The box on the right slips on to the back of the ac, and is held on by safety wire to existing case screws. Don't want to drill into the condenser area and get a leak Unlike my current units 2+3, this exit will flex duct to the vent in the west side of the house. Test units 2+3 just dump hot air into attic, works, but attic gets real hot, not satisfactory long term, but a fun test.
The center ring(cold air supply) is 12" and the hose is held on by a zip tie or a hose clamp and locks against the 6 cleats. The barely visible box on the left is for the return duct, and the hose just pops in the tight hole. Everything is easy once you learn how

.
Here a guy discusses is great detail, how he put 2 window ac's on his lawn and ran ducts into his central system https://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?106499-Adapting-old-window-air-conditioners-to-central-forced-air-systems

 

[Matt Gruber]

Will soon be trying 3 ways to get more heat this winter.(with ac reversed)
First i'll use the extra duct i have to pick up warmer air near the top (inside roof).
2nd i now have the 20" fan to bring in outside air. Around 9 am it was 5 degrees warmer outside and before, with no fan, i was stuck with the colder attic air.
Anytime it drops below 50F i'll try adding a small amount of heat in an attempt to find the sweet spot, the max multiplier effect. A heat pump can produce 2 to 4 times more btu's of heat, than it uses (if the power was hooked to a resistance heater).
So i'll add, say, 8, 60w light bulbs at the coil entrance. This is just a guess, a 1st test. The bulbs should be safe as they don't get hot enough to start a fire, like other heaters. Even so, i'll make sure they don't touch anything combustible.
This should reduce icing, a problem with heat pumps. And be much warmer. both are complaints i had last winter. When the coil has ice it drops heat way way down, and it waves a white flag :lol: Goal is to add as much "pre-heat" as necessary to keep the heat pump working. I think, last year if the temp went under 50F output went off a cliff.
This is a great experiment, don't you think?

Inspired by montreal, https://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?106499-Adapting-old-window-air-conditioners-to-central-forced-air-systems

 

[Matt Gruber]

quote from montreal
First I needed to inexpensively estimate air flow through this HRV, so without the compressor activated, I placed a 200 watt lightbulb in the input duct and noticed that the air temperature coming out the other end of the HRV went up by 2.8 degrees F. From this I estimated that I was getting an air flow of about 220 CFM which made sense given the duct fan driving this feed was rated 380 CFM, but there was so much resistance to flow created by the compressor coil and length of flexible duct, that this rating got knocked down by nearly half.

 

[Matt Gruber]

return hooked up, now 47.7 db. fan on medium speed. right at the return grille it is 53db, pretty amazing as it was 73db before.

doing a test today, it is cloudy, humid, and drizzling
after 1/2 hour
outside 64F attic 69F
BR 78 (was 76.5)
supply 110F edit: after 50 min 105F , down to 100 after 1 hr.
door open and entire house is warming up Kitchen was 75 now 76.2
of course on a cold day i plan to close off 2 rooms.
this is just one 8k btu, less than $200 cost so far.

See what happened last year? The supply dropped to 100F from 110F on a humid day. I think the coil was icing, even with 60's temp. This is why i'm adding pre-heat. Need a stable temp without ice forming.
Or if it does ice up, the heater can defrost it quickly.
Last year, the Goodman central was still working, so i gave up quickly. This year, with no central heat, i'm motivated to try again.
.
Thermostat started to smoke! After working fine for months i found out the 12v tstat does not like 13.9v
So i added a resistor, now 11.7v, or 10.3v when the relay kicks in. This is the 1st time something smoked and it still works 8)

 

[Matt Gruber]

pre-heat test set up. three, 100w bulbs. Not all that much room in there for 8 bulbs :wink:

 

[markz]

I have been thinking about your projects.
I had a look over the years of utility bills I had for general seasons.
Fee's alone to have the privilege of being connected to the grid is minimum $75/m without the energy costs.
I found out my average usage for watts, and there were a handful of times I reached 1 billion watts, normally its like 500 mega watts or 750 mega watts. Whole house ac, 1800sq ft is my guess.

Got me thinking about reducing the utility cost.

On Youtube there was a guy in Cali who got Elon Musks solar shingles, who knows how many connections there were there, he paid $150K or whatever it was, not worth it one bit. Other extreme direction, woodgas! Buy a V10 dodge truck engine, weld up the gasifier with a huge hopper for the wood bits so you just fill it up less often. Then buy a generator motor head.
Dodge V10 engine is like $500
10kw generator head is like $500
Wood can be very cheap if not free. A cord of wood is 4' W x 4' T x 8' L and is around $250, cheaper $175. Free pallets, free homeowner felled trees, furniture, crown land with permit.
Have it paid off in 4 months!

Imagine that setup inside a metropolitan city populated with million plus. Setup in the backyard, next to the detached rear garage. Fee's alone to have the privilege of being connected to the grid is minimum $75/m without the energy costs.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200395478_200395478
https://www.allpar.com/mopar/V10.htm

 

[dustNbone]

You could get by with a much smaller engine if you're only generating 10kw. A Dodge V-10 makes 300HP if I'm not mistaken. I'd aim for something more like a propane forklift engine.

 

[markz]

https://www.lowes.com/projects/pdfs/portable-generator-wattage-chart.pdf

Electric Water Heater 4000W
Furnace Fan 800W
24kbtu ac 4000W
Washer 1500W 30 minutes per load
Dryer 5500W 30 minutes per load
Dishwasher 400W could go on for 1.5-2hrs
Fridge 700W on all the time, but not cooling all the time
Microwave 1500W used for 5 minutes at most.
Stove 2500W max maybe an hour


Single detached home (1800 ft2) is 8292 kWh per year, or about 691 kWh per month
Rounded up is
10 mega watt hour / year
850 kilo watt hour / month
30kw /day
30kw divided by 24hrs = 1250Wh which is not practical!
I'd say a 10,000 watt generator for a high demand situation.
How much HP does that 10kw generator require?

Factory calls for 30hp for 15kw and 40hp for 20kw.

So any old working engine shall work, bio mass gas needs more for same hp as gasoline. Lets assume then double.
100HP for 20kw
Any small car engine will work then. Smaller shed, double walled to be built in the backyard, ideally between two garages, yours and your neighbors. Doable in a metropolitan city. Air flow mufflers
https://hvacsolutionsdirect.com/catalog/Duct-System-Components/Air-Duct-Mufflers

Round Duct Sound Attenuator. Air Duct Silencer reduces Air Noise traveling through HVAC Duct Work and Air Ventilation Systems. No Air Restriction. 24" and 36" lengths
Rectangular Duct Sound Attenuator. Reduce Air Flow Noise without restriction. New or Existing Duct applications

Intake and exhaust. $50 for either is not a bad price.

All in probably snag a 100HP small car engine on a sale day at the junk yard for $150, $100 for air flow muffs, generator head for 20kw $2500, bio mass rig $1000. Save $250/month easy on utilities, recoup cash in a year or so.

Just saying!

 

[Matt Gruber]

Also will be testing a heater under my kitchen table. Off for now to see if i ever touch it with my leg, since it is a bare element from my oven. (and it is still ac weather here in FL). Years ago i took it out of the top of my oven since it was burning things. No wonder why, it is 3200w However on 120v it will be only 800w, might be just right on a cold morning; the table and air around it should be more comfy.
Also when my neighbor got a new range, i pickup up 2 more elements, if i need more power, like 1600 or 2400 watts. Really don't want to go that high, but being the elements were free; during a cold snap, i could try MORE POWER.
EDIT
so a test of the heater convinced me to put a guard so it won't touch my pants 8) Just a piece of 1/2" aluminum tubing that sticks out 3" in front of the element.
I checked the ohms hot, 18.3 vs 17.6 cold. i used 18 to calculate the watts using ohms law. So, it puts out a lot of heat right where i will need it this winter. No need to heat the whole kitchen, which, with a 12' ceiling, would be hard to do. And 800w won't give a crazy high electric bill. (only 8 cents per hour)

 

[Matt Gruber]

kitchen table heater with guards
800w on 120v

If anyone likes this idea, you can get an element from walmart w/local free pickup, and it is only $13.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/GE-Bake-Element-WB44X200/40105172?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227030247798&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=51098311952&wl4=pla-104159586752&wl5=9011507&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=40105172&wl13=&veh=sem&gclid=CjwKCAjwu5veBRBBEiwAFTqDwVRwAikLOYKdc-1D5hy9-g3OOIs-lYucT5xWw0Rey6cTioIMs03qWBoCLacQAvD_BwE

 

[edcastrovalley]

kitchen table heater with guards
800w on 120v
IMG_20181016_085653.jpg
If anyone likes this idea, you can get an element from walmart w/local free pickup, and it is only $13.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/GE-Bake-Element-WB44X200/40105172?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227030247798&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=51098311952&wl4=pla-104159586752&wl5=9011507&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=40105172&wl13=&veh=sem&gclid=CjwKCAjwu5veBRBBEiwAFTqDwVRwAikLOYKdc-1D5hy9-g3OOIs-lYucT5xWw0Rey6cTioIMs03qWBoCLacQAvD_BwE

I like home built projects like this. I bet it works well too.

But since this forum is made up of mostly amateur UL inspectors, I'll try to save them some time:

The electrical connections need to be in a rated asbestos enclosure.

The heating element needs to be in an enclosure with no larger than 1/4 inch holes to keep the little fingers out even though now
the heat can't get out.

The table needs a tip over cutout switch in case a drunk guy knocks everything over.

It will need a gfi switch to be ready for the next 100 year flood.

There, that should keep them off your back. But seriously, that should keep you nice and toasty. At least at the table anyway.