Zippy Flightmax / Turnigy lipo testing

[methods]

hi methods I found the post you said use CA jell i presume this is cyano or superglue I could not find any jell but found thick about as thick as cough syrup, I have the activating spray will that work to keep those balance wires in place in the housing do you think without insulating them.

Geoff

Thick CA is fine - that is what I use half the time.
The idea is that you just want a cyano that it thick enough to "string" along the back of the pins.
Too thin and the risk is that it can wick up the pins and insulate them

I just run a bead along the back of the connector - right where the pins go into the back of the shell.
I just hit it with some activator afterwards. Alternatively you can activate the pins first, wait till it drys, then run the CA on top of that. Does not take much - just enough to bind them all together.

The only danger is using CA that is water thin for the above stated reason.
Anything else will work fine.

-methods

P.S. Make sure you dont get activator on your skin if you have CA on your skin. It gets REAL HOT when you mix the two

 

[SpeedEBikes]

Methods, I was delighted to recently find this forum with you and Doc and all the others who are pushing performance limits. I used to do that years ago and posted regularly on the yahoo egroup power-assist forum. I'm also glad to see a handful of familiar names of some of the more serious folk from those years back have also found their way to this forum. If only Colin Dedman was here I'd think I found my way to heaven.

I dropped out of the yahoo forum because the signal to noise ratio got pretty poor but I like how this forum makes it fairly easy to find the tasty nuggets.

I still want high performance, but not at the cost and trouble of frequent pack rebuilds/replacements or controller repair/replacement. Six years ago I got rid of all my cars, van, motorcycles, etc. and switched to ebikes for all my transport. I have a fast recumbent, an all around workhorse mtb, and a recumbent trike set up for hauling serious cargo in a trailer. I also have a sweet full suspension mtb. It's a Giant AC1, with a rear Crystalyte 5305 and Schlumpf 2.6X high speed overdrive bottom bracket/crank geared for easy pedaling at 40 mph. Back when I set it up a 2C rating on lithium batteries was about the best to be had and even those were somewhat optimistic in hindsight. After mostly killing an expensive set of batteries in only 2 years I put the bike in storage where it has sat for years getting dusty. Also, the analog Crystalyte 35 amp/72 v controller was getting a little flaky.

But by spring I hope to find a good programmable 50 amp / 100 V controller and I'm regularly watching for sale lipos at HobbyKing. If I can't find a good turn key controller I might rebuild mine with 4110s and better caps, etc. It will be good to get the speed back. But this time I will do it with more restraint and care and hopefully have it last without steady infusions of time and cash.

Btw, I've burnt a few cells back in the day. Even had a Thundersky 10 ah cobalt cell do a blowtorch impersonation and blast a hole through a bike frame. Keep your fingers and other vital bits far away from the flames...

Well said, and welcome to the thread / forum.
All correct and very good points.

Personally I always charge to near HVC but that is because I dont care as much about pack longevity and my goal is to have maximum range at any given time.
Those who know me well know that my pack will burst into flames long before it wears out
My theory is to keep the bike charged up as much as possible all the time so I charge at any opportunity - at work, at lunch - whenever.
I also charge at 3C when possible so that in only 20 minutes I can top off.

-methods

 

[methods]

if I have to do some more custom settings how would I do that?
I have found the safety timer and the capasity cutoff settings in the 1010b menu what do you think I should change them to?

Geoff

I turn off the safety timer
I turn off the capacity cutoff
Those are the main two that will cut your charging short and leave you pissed in the morning

You can also fool with the point at which the charger "gives up".
This is controlled by the ratio of the trickle current to the pack capacity.
For instance a 5000 mah pack may stop charging when the charge current hits 500mA if it is set to 10%
With a 30Ah pack you may want to quit when the charge current hits 3A - but you can tune this.

-methods

 

[methods]

I might rebuild mine with 4110s ]

If you decide to let me know - You qualify for the $1.50 gangster pricing

Keep an eye on the for sale section as well as I will be selling off some of my older 100V 100A controllers as "used"
(but in my opinion used is better - it translates to "thoroughly tested" in my book)

-methods

 

[Hyena]

I just use big resistors and my fingers

I just went over my pack and pulled 2 high cells back a notch. I was using resistors but they got a bit hot on my pinkies so I used a 3w cree led bolted to a huge heat sink and no driver connected directly the the offending balance lead. 30 seconds of big daddy cree and that 4.23v cell was back to 4.18 with all it's brothers and sisters

On the topic of these turnigys, I just notice hobby city have 5ah hardcase packs, pity they're only the 2S ones, I'd snap up some 6S ones quick smart!
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10098&Product_Name=Turnigy_5000mAh_2S1P_20C_hardcase_pack

 

[recumpence]

I have begun using (or just got my first one done) TIG welded aluminum battery boxes. A 12S2P 10ah Turnigy pack case layed out like a cigar box costs $60 to $75 (with lid) to have made depending on the shop in my area and $20 to be powder coated black. Not a bad deal for protecting $350 of Lipos and it looks very finished on the bike.

Matt

 

[Arlo1]

Turnigy has a hard case lipo out now on HK site!

 

[recumpence]

Yes, but as mentioned earlier, those are only 2S packs.

Matt

 

[GCinDC]

seems like hobbycity discontinued the jst-xh extensions. does anyone have another source for jst-xh connectors?

thanks

 

[vanilla ice]

I think I saw some ten packs on ebay. Shame to have to pay separate shipping for just those instead of being able to add them to your order.

 

[SpeedEBikes]

Digikey has the sockets and pins. I went this route because I'm building 8s packs. I mount a celllog8 on each pack and I charge them with the iCharger208B. Although HobbyCity sells both of these devices and they each use a 9 pin jst-xh connector, Hobby city sells no cables with these connectors at all.

The proper crimping tool is very expensive. I've been using a generic crimper that does a loose crimp. I've tried finishing the crimps with needle nose pliers but had a fairly high failure rate of wires pulling loose. I've switched to lightly pre-tinning the wires and then soldering after the loose crimp. If I don't get it just right the pin won't slide into the connector. But of the ones that fit none have pulled free.

Anyway, the parts are so cheap that it's worth a shot at trying your hand at making them up yourself. It is tedious but being able to make exactly what you want is always good.

seems like hobbycity discontinued the jst-xh extensions. does anyone have another source for jst-xh connectors?

thanks

 

[liveforphysics]

seems like hobbycity discontinued the jst-xh extensions. does anyone have another source for jst-xh connectors?

thanks

They made the 10" JST extension connectors at my personal request. You guys should have bought more of them, and maybe they would have kept the product available. I bought 50+ myself. I think Methy may have a hundred or more. lol

 

[GaryMedia]

Ok, help me out here guys. I'm converging on a 4s-5000mAh building block solution. This will allow me to use the 8 units that I plan to buy in the following two configurations:

a- 8s-20Ah to run my 500W Cyclone bike. (The Cyclone internal controller will tolerate the 29.6v-33v...I'm running it on 3x12vSLA22Ah now)
b- 16s-10Ah to run my 48v Infineon controller that turns my Bafang rear wheel bike. (The Infineon will tolerate the 59.2v-66v)

Notice that my off-the-charger voltage presupposes 4.125v/cell. I'd like to pre-wire my 'blocks' of 8s2p=29.6v-10Ah and charge/balance each of these blocks independently on a separate *cheap* charger/balancer that will allow me to specify the 4.125v/cell.

What charger/balancer do you recommend for this approach? Optionally, I could do four *cheap* 4s chargers that have the voltage 4.125v/cell adjustment capability and charge at the smaller 14.8v-10Ah blocks I can easily get the required quantity of 12V DC supplies for the 11v-18v DC-supply side of the charger, so that's not much of an issue.

 

[vanilla ice]

Accucel-6 is like $40, but its only 50w. Or if you want to go super cheap HC has some $6 2s/3s slow chargers. Kind of like an array of single cell chargers setup except half as many. Those would take overnight.

 

[GaryMedia]

Thanks. I had downloaded the manual for that Accucel-6 product. The manual implied that feature but didn't explicitly state that it was in there. I guess 50W is only a 0.6C rate on a 4s-5Ah pack and only 0.3C on a 4s10Ah pack...pretty timid. I'll keep it on the list and hope for other options.

Thanks again for the recommendation.

 

[SpeedEBikes]

Ok, help me out here guys. I'm converging on a 4s-5000mAh building block solution. This will allow me to use the 8 units that I plan to buy in the following two configurations:

What charger/balancer do you recommend for this approach? Optionally, I could do four *cheap* 4s chargers that have the voltage 4.125v/cell adjustment capability and charge at the smaller 14.8v-10Ah blocks I can easily get the required quantity of 12V DC supplies for the 11v-18v DC-supply side of the charger, so that's not much of an issue.

I'm using iCharger208Bs. At $170 they are not cheap chargers. But they are a fantastic value. They are tiny but super efficient and they can do 350 watts. This makes them great to carry around if you have any recharge opportunities during longer trips. They are also extremely configurable so you can readily slow charge and under charge to any voltage you choose to maximize pack life. I usually charge to 4.05v and only go to 4.1v or 4.15v when I have to go a very long way with no opportunity for recharging enroute. And they do very accurate balancing too. The one weakness of these chargers is the balancing current is low. But if your packs are of decent quality and good health they shouldn't require heavy balancing. You'd do fine (2 hours full charge) with only one of these chargers and always charging with your batteries in their 8S 20AH config.

Another very cool feature is they can take a wide range of input voltages so you could also do unexpected things like use it to say power a laptop computer from your bicycle battery.

There's one other weakness of them. They achieve their magical power density through synchronous switching. They do voltage conversion at very high frequency so they can do it with tiny caps & inductors. Normally high frequency switching of transistors causes big losses but they time the switching perfectly (ie synchronous) such that the transistors always switch when they aren't carrying much current and that gets rid of most of the switching losses. Anyway the weakness of this is that these units produce RF noise. I'm sure heavier shielding could clean it up but I like them nice and light and don't listen to radio much. I hope the FCC can't block the importation of them.

 

[vanilla ice]

Accucel 8 makes more sense than the cheaper 6 for an 8s pack config anyway, and its 150w. Still pretty affordable at 70$. But you did say cheap..

The $6 mini's are set at 4.21v and are afaik non-adjustable. They would do if you could live with a slooow 12 hour charge on a 10ah pack.

 

[GCinDC]

I have begun using (or just got my first one done) TIG welded aluminum battery boxes.

Pics Please, (here, or over at this thread)... :wink:

 

[geoff57]

hi
I heard that it was getting hard to get hold of the balance wires for the turnigy packs both 5s and 6s. I've had a word with keywin/ecrazyman and he can supply them at a very resonable price. there is a problem with small orders of connectors on there own, they can be ordered with controllers and other parts from him or on their own the minimum order is 50 units to make shipping worth while.
Basic unit will be either a 6 or a 7 way jst-xh connector the same as used for the balance wires on the battery packs, also included would be either a 90 degree or a standard pcb mounting connector, the length of wires is yet to be finalised but I suggested 150mm.
cost will be 6 usd for 10 units.
price brake 100 units : 100 units for 50 usd.
minimum number of units on their own 50 that would be a cost of 30 usd.
If other parts are being bought then the quantitys are multiples of 10.

Geoff

 

[GCinDC]

Basic unit will be either a 6 or a 7 way jst-xh connector.... 150mm....cost will be 6 usd for 10 units ... 100 units for 50 usd.

i JUST placed my hobbycity order.... could only find the 10cm turnigy kokam(?) adapter (which i'll just snip off)...

i'll go in for 20 more though, considering the shortage... only 5s for me though.

somebody sells something similar on ebay for $4.95 apiece plus $4 shipping.... maybe i should get a couple hundred.

 

[vanilla ice]

Webfoot pointed out these from an RC plane shop for $2 each-
http://www.radicalrc.com/shop/?shop=1&cart=3143947&cat=295
I think I'm just going to do the snip off thing also to save shipping.

 

[GCinDC]

Webfoot pointed out these from an RC plane shop for $2 each-
http://www.radicalrc.com/shop/?shop=1&cart=3143947&cat=295
I think I'm just going to do the snip off thing also to save shipping.

Nice find!

It would be the balancing receptacle end i'd need, but i've heard they're a challenge to crimp/solder.

They do have the extension/adapters ($3.50) though and they're 12"!! Those are perfect for my pack! Plus by snipping them, both ends will be usable... :wink:

PS. I did the epoxy job this weekend. Wasn't pretty, but slathered that stuff on the backs of the connectors and it hardened up like solid plastic. can't imagine them going anywhere now! thanks for the tip, methods!

 

[geoff57]

Basic unit will be either a 6 or a 7 way jst-xh connector.... 150mm....cost will be 6 usd for 10 units ... 100 units for 50 usd.

i JUST placed my hobbycity order.... could only find the 10cm turnigy kokam(?) adapter (which i'll just snip off)...

i'll go in for 20 more though, considering the shortage... only 5s for me though.

somebody sells something similar on ebay for $4.95 apiece plus $4 shipping.... maybe i should get a couple hundred.

hi
since there is such a shortage I sudgested that keywin sell them on his web site earlyer today, he said he would with the costings I posted before, the price includes shipping.
below is an example of one unit for a 4s battery with a 90 degree board connector.
View attachment 4 way balance web.jpg
I have ordered 30 for 5s packs with my next order.

Geoff

 

[GCinDC]

what's his web site address?

 

[mwkeefer]

First... thanks to Gary for the link to a reputable (read that as tried and correct) vendor of Mean well supplies, I've ordered 3 x 24v14.6a, 1x36v 9.7A and 1x48v 7.3A units for testing.

I want to caution everyone, I sourced three "mean well" power supplies from Chinese vendors (not via eBay but rather direct)... I had ordered 3 samples from these vendors as a prelude to a 100+ unit order. Problem with these supplies is they are not "Mean well"... all 3 listed the meanwell suppy but sent me some knock offs (all are different). The range on these was horrible one would adjust all the way from 23.8 to 26v out of the box.

Don't get me wrong... those things can be fixed but if that is an indicator of the quality - I'm not connecting these knock offs to my lipo packs (they aren't stable CC either).

So again... thanks to Gary for the real source = )_ I couldn't afford to waste another 2-3 weeks for duds.

Now the questions:

1.) The mean well specs for all of the 350w series quote +-10% of rated voltage, this would be mean 24v = 21.6v to 26.4v, 36v = 32.4v - 39.6v and 48v = 43.2v to 52.8v. I have seen numerous posts (in this thread and others) about people calibrating the 24v to 20.x volts for 5S@4.15v and yes I've seen the posts about replacing the resistor from 1k to 1.3k to get between 18v and [Unknown]v on the 24v but the question is what is the real factor range of these units? How far can the range be safely extended in either direction (with either increase or decrease in current) with modification?

For instance is it a strech to get the 36v unit to run at 41.5 cutout or the 48v at 41.6? This would be perfect for a 10S2P 10AH pack if tweaked this way... should charge in roughly 1hr.

Im asking because as I said previously all the prior "mean wells" i have received aren't mean wells so I have no idea what I'm going to be able to do with these... I planned worst case scenario to use the 24x3 for 15S charging... or 36v + 24v for 15s charging.

Any real world info on these would be priceless to me at this point!

PS: A little trick for the balance connectors - don't use CA or superglue ... instead get some ABS plastic (clear if possible, white is fine too) which you can get at any local hardware store in the bathroom section and in dozens of other sections in the store (be creative) ... cut these into pieces and dissolve them into acetone (also from home depot)... you will create an ABS welding material which can be mixed to any consistency you wish (start with a small batch 10cc or so just to figure out the consistency rate) once you have this done... use a PVC dropper or syringe (CVS, riteaide, etc - needle not required, childrens dosage droppers will work too) - if all else fails, use a paint brush that you don't mind destroying. Finally run a thin bead along the back of the hxt connectors. Once the acetone evaporates you are sealed and firmly secured + water proof and if done right it blends nicely with the adapter.

One other trick technique is masking tape off the back of the connector with a thin strip (1/8") then fill the tape collar with the above ABS "glue" or even just normal hot glue and let it set... when you remove the masking tape it will look like a professionally manufactured sealed plug - water proof and clean looking even with glue gun method.

Hope that helps someone.

Regards,
Mike