AM dual motor = bafang middrive + rear hub motor

[dogman dan]

You don't have to stay away from hubmotors. You just have to not expect mountain performance from the ones engineered for riding around the valley in town. You need the right motor. One or more of the three strategies. It won't work to go climb steep hills with a typical 500w kit in it's stock form. They will climb moderate stuff, up to 10% grade.

Cellman has the slow speed Mac, which others report works well off road. Only limitation is hucking big drops can damage them.

But yes, it's true, a good mid drive can be expensive and or complicated. A mid drive will handle more like normal than a heavy hubmotor on the rear wheel.

But my bike rides ok enough for me, and didn't cost that much. Couple hundred for the motor, couple more for the controller, then some more for a cycleanalyst. Call it about $500 US. Then the battery can be more like a question of how much you got? I think mine, 72v 10 ah, cost about $550, and another two for charging and wiring stuff. Still under $1500 easy, for a ride that goes straight up mountains for a short time. Putting it all on a better bike though, can cost anything you have. But the motor and stuff is cheap compared to good DH bikes.

 

[John Bozi]

Have done a lot of research into the stuff you guys put in front of me here. I kind of understand more now. I look forward to commuting with my kit and will keep you posted on it.

I am however dreaming about my initial idea of mountain climbing easily with a different set up. I've looked at lots of stuff on this forum and else where about cyclone, gng and ego. the cheap versions look a lot of extra work which I don't have the time for.

Is the ego kit worth the money? Is it reliable? Spending that much and then saying now you need to change this bit and this bit is not acceptable in my books. Also it uses lithium magnesium, is that as safe as LIfePo4? I would hate to have a fire on my back. That kit looks the like it enables riders to stay as true to the mtb experience as possible compared to anything else I have seen.

 

[dogman dan]

It's very hard to make a good ebike, without changing this or that. Then when done, you really don't have a bike anymore in most cases. My best bikes have not been ruined with motors.

But it's the lightest moped you ever rode, and unlike "real" mopeds, the pedals work well. Much depends on what you got used to in the past. Since I rode some real pigs of motorcycles in my past, I didn't mind my "bike" being heavy. But I do insist on pedals that still are worth using.

Lico, AKA RC lipo, is the more volatile chemistry. Limn is OK. Lifepo4 is just the longer lasting chemistry, of the safe types.

 

[John Bozi]

Just got the battery, amazing to hold your first one, almost the same weight as my carbon bike! Yeah I get the feeling a light bike is not what we aim for ever now.

I haven't got the motor, kind of sucks coz I got the weekend to do it. No manuals nothing just battery and charger. I won't bother charging it up until I read the manuals.

 

[lbz5mc12]

Your battery probably already has some charge in it so be careful not to cross your +- wires when you put the connector on. Do one wire at a time leaving the other one taped in the process. It's okay to charge your battery right away and it's not a good idea to leave it off charge for any great length of time.

 

[John Bozi]

Your battery probably already has some charge in it so be careful not to cross your +- wires when you put the connector on. Do one wire at a time leaving the other one taped in the process. It's okay to charge your battery right away and it's not a good idea to leave it off charge for any great length of time.

I don't even know which wire is + and -. Blue is ... Red is... they have plastic or rubber covering the ends so I presume they would be fine. The connector I presume is the thing that looks like a microphone connector.

What are the red and blue?

 

[Ykick]

Do you have a meter? Do you have any connectors yet? The XLR is for charging, those shrinkwrap leads will be power out and need whatever connector you use for the controller. Red is probably + but verify with meter 1st.

 

[John Bozi]

Will find out if my dad's got a meter, think he does. Otherwise any recommendations for one to buy? Thanks.

 

[Ykick]

Will find out if my dad's got a meter, think he does. Otherwise any recommendations for one to buy? Thanks.

Not really, I go cheap and easy. For covenience, $15 or so is all I care to spend at auto parts stores. Similar units can be found much cheaper online of course.

 

[John Bozi]

With LiFePo4 battery and this charger, are there any dangers? What will happen if I take the charger off once it is full? Does it damage the battery to be left on the charger for too long? As I have no idea how long this will take to charge and I can't sit around for 10 hours looking at it...

thanks again.

 

[Ykick]

With LiFePo4 battery and this charger, are there any dangers? What will happen if I take the charger off once it is full? Does it damage the battery to be left on the charger for too long? As I have no idea how long this will take to charge and I can't sit around for 10 hours looking at it...

thanks again.

A good long charge is a good thing for best balance. Shouldn't be any problem left on charger for long period of time.

 

[pendragon8000]

If your interested in GNG check this guys success with the kit. Running stock drive mec. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46164
They seem OK if you don't push them too hard.

 

[lbz5mc12]

Sorry forgot to mention that the XLR connector was for charging. That kind of charger should have a red/green led on it to indicate when the battery is fully charged. Have you tried just plugging the charger into the wall socket by itself to see if a red light comes on? Do you know what your wall socket is rated for? The charger should have a voltage listed on it somewhere indicating whether it functions at 110 or 220V. Some chargers come with a voltage switch but that one looks like it's pretty much plug and play. That kind of charger should be a smart charger and should stop charging automatically when the battery is full. You can leave it plugged and while it's plugged in it'll maintain the charge and keep the battery from discharging over time when it's not being used.

When it comes to charging there are 2 things to remember: When you're charging the battery, plug the charger into the battery first and then plug the charger into the wall socket. When you're disconnecting the charger, unplug the battery from the charger first and then unplug the charger from the wall socket.

It looks like your battery didn't come with a connector to plug into a controller. You'll have to wait until you get the controller to determine what kind of connector you'll need. When it comes to connectors you're not forced to use the one that comes on the controller. If you have different connectors you want to use you can replace the one on the controller by either splicing or soldering. By connector I mean the plug that mates the battery to the controller. Maybe someone else could explain this better?

 

[dogman dan]

Once you confirm that the charge lights up, that is, smoke doesn't come out the first time you plug it in, go ahead and put the battery on the charger.

In general, the charger is not completely finished when the light turns green. If you need to ride, go ahead, but later on let the battery charge fully by leaving it on the charger even after the light turns green.

What is happening is that the charger turns itself off when the voltage of the battery gets high enough, turning the light green. BTW, the light turns green if disconnected too, so sometimes green means the plug broke.

While in green, the bms is still working, very slowly discharging individual cells that have more charge than the others. The high cells make the battery look full, but other cells may still be undercharged. Later on, after the bms lowers the voltage of the high cells, the charger will turn on red again, briefly charging all cells. Then the process repeats, possibly taking all night to completely balance the pack.

Once you get up and running, "break in" the pack by taking short rides at first, followed by long periods on the charger. It's not a real break in, but just allowing the bms to fully balance the pack. Anytime your completely discharge the pack, you will need to rebalance it some, so leave it charging overnight then as well. In normal use, where you recharge before the pack is completely empty, the pack may remain in balance a long time.

Confirm with a voltmeter which wire is which before connecting to a controller. Get one of your own, you may want to carry it around to see what your battery is doing. There are threads about affordable voltmeters, and affordable wattmeters for permanently mounting on the bike as well. I think you need both, a regular dvm in the shop, and ideally a wattmeter on the bike to measure the discharge, so you can have a fuel gauge.

The big blue and red wires are the discharge wires. Get some connectors to match the controller, or plan on adding a type of your choice to the controller and the battery. Lots of options, two of the favorites are 4mm bullets and 45 amp Anderson powerpoles.

 

[John Bozi]

Ok I will put it on now - I'll check it in the morning.
My dad only had a volt metre and it was reading around 60. We spent the day yacking about how to mount the triangle. We tried a metal stud for housing - got excited but didn't fit for about 1cm. Would have been awesome, so went to bunnings to see if they had other widths, but nope.

I think my battery will fit the triangle bag - just wondering if anyone sells them in Australia but can't find them anywhere and still wonder if its strong enough for an 8kg battery.

As for buying a volt metre / watt metre, do I need it if I get the cycle analyst? Is this version 2 the only one available now? would this analysit do the same job as well as other things? Is it suitable for all ebikes? http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=43&product_id=103

 

[John Bozi]

That was a surprise. I've got a thousand different chargers, was expecting this one to be the same. It must have a little fan in there. Ok I have never had an 8kg battery either.

 

[dogman dan]

A CA would be ideal. REALLY nice tool, I have two and still want a third one. ( I have lots of bikes). You definitely can't go wrong getting one of those. If on a budget, there are less accurate, but very cheap watt meters on ebay.

You can use the CA for a voltmeter, it's just awkward when you have the battery or a charger on the table and want to check something, but the CA is more or less permanently mounted on the bike.

At some point though, get a cheap voltmeter. Here in the USA, we have harbor freight. At times, you see an ad that says free dvm with a purchase. So I go buy 2-5 bucks worth of solder, zip ties, etc and get another dvm than normally sells for 10 bucks. Cheap and not so long lasting, but I just pile em up. So maybe you can get one under 10 bucks someplace rather than have to ask dad all the time. I think they make about $9.50 profit on these dvm's when somebody pays 10.
Mostly you need the dvm when you mess with plugs. Gotta be certain sure you have the polarity right when you change the broken plug on a charger or whatever. Or get a new charger, but need to add the correct plug that your battery has, etc.

 

[John Bozi]

When you're charging the battery, plug the charger into the battery first and then plug the charger into the wall socket. When you're disconnecting the charger, unplug the battery from the charger first and then unplug the charger from the wall socket.

Thanks, I would have never done this if you hadn't told me. I think I get the logic of the charging part, but what is the logic of the unplugging part? What happens if this not followed out of curiosity?

 

[pendragon8000]

Personally I do the opposite with the charger so it has charged capacitors when connecting and doesn't spark due to inrush from battery to charger capacitors. I use a 1.2kw bmsbattery charger. With smaller chargers it might not matter to much.

 

[dogman dan]

I've read arguments for both ways. In some cases it depends on the charger. None of mine came with instructions either way, and I have done it both ways randomly for years with no problems.

One major exception, My RC charges cannot be started until you have both plugged into the wall and powered them up, and plugged in the battery. Typically, I power up the charger, then plug in the battery, then do the button pushing to start it.

 

[John Bozi]

my logic is that the last thing when you charge or turn off charging is to hit the wall switch. It would seem the safest point to handle anything with electricity.

 

[dogman dan]

True enough, but you'll find your battery is always on, and can make quite a spark if you short it somehow. You could easily weld with it.

You have the three prong type charger connector. Misalign it someday and ground the hot prong while plugging it in. You'll see what I mean. I learned to be careful about lining up those plugs before bringing them together.

Don't have a lot of fear of your battery or charger, but do be careful not to do careless things, like plug in the battery with the plug rotated out of the correct position.

 

[John Bozi]

1. Where is the best place to mount the controller? It would be tidy in the frame or in whatever will hold the box but should it be outside to air cool?

2. I am still struggling to decide whether to build this up on my tank or to buy a new bike with disc brakes and the perfect fit for the triangle battery.... If I end up making everything great on the tank and then have to spend the same as buying a new bike just to get new brakes....mmmm

3. I am sure I will be keeping my ebiking away from single tracks because I have discovered how much mountain bikers hate them.

4. Going back to fitting inside the metal stud. My dad wants to open the battery box to see how the batteries are arranged and true width of the battery minus the cardboard. I don't know if this is wise and whether batteries coming into contact with steel would ever be a good idea. Steel conducts electricity.

 

[pendragon8000]

John I suggest mounting the controller under the down tube in front of the pedals with wires coming out the bottom as a drip loop. If it isn't water resistant then vertical on the seat post is a good option for a hard tail. Regarding brakes you can upgrade 100mm rockshok and big disk brake for $200 (chain reaction cycles). And regarding a cycle analyst I recommend a CA v3 for all its awesome features. However if you don't want to open your controller then you need the shunt adapter kit (ebikes.CA).

With the battery I suggest 3mm ply with galv edge brackets on the outside like I did on my first build. Line it with thin foam and hing a side, secure with a latch or Velcro or whatever. Painted black it will come up OK . Otherwise get some 2mm aluminium bent up I guess.

 

[John Bozi]

So here I am very excited to have finally received the motor/wheel.

Dad was really confused about how the colours black didn't go to black.

The explanations were terrible (the seller was great though)

We tested connecting to the battery any way, and I was nervous but he knows his stuff.

It's a heavy tank with crappy brakes but dam it looks hot, I'm so excited to get it going. And yeah I picked it up the heavy ass and dad hit the throttle and she hummmmmmed oh yeah I was suddenly very happy for spending so much time researching and money and waiting.

I know I sound like I must be a kid or something but my dad even though 70 is the greatest handy man on Earth. There's nothing he doesn't know how to do.

For now I am going for the thumb throttle for simplicity to get this off the ground, but it has a bit of overlap with the rear shifter. It's ok really as you don't use both at the same time.

Thanks to everyone helping me here. I have not felt like a kid before christmas for ages. No pressure on dad but he knows I am peeing my pants to have my first ride once we work out the battery and controller positions - should in a few days.