Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

[majornelson]

Anyone know if the 72 volt S LCD 3 Display from BMS.B would work with the 6 fet IFRB 4110 controller from EM3ev ? it can handle up to 72 volts . ... http://em3ev.com/product/6-fet-irfb4110-infineon-sensorless-controller/

and since it is an Infinion/what people call an Infinion Controller , the amps are adjustable with a $ 10 program lead . ... http://em3ev.com/product/eb3-infineon-program-lead/

ScooterMan101,

Funny, I just re-read your response to my earlier issue regarding the Q100 motor cutting out. I actually use the EM3ev controller you mention with a Q100 on my city bike, with a throttle. (Great combination but it does whine a little vs. the sine wave controllers) . I used the cable to change the settings and the set up has worked great. But since I'm using peddle assist and no throttle on my current build (that has the motor cutting out) I wanted to control the assist level with the display. I had just assumed the two wouldn't work together. I know that you can connect the EM3ev controller to a Cycle Analyst display from Grin (http://www.ebike.ca). But that is an expensive alternative compared to the LCD-3. More capabilities but more expensive. EM3ev is pretty responsive for any questions and it would be a great combination if it worked.

Wish I could add more...

As an aside, based on responses I've received in this thread, I *will* be testing both the 500w BMS controller and I also ordered the an elifebike 6 fet controller (unfortunately only an LED display not an LCD) to test with my 52v Q100 configuration. Hopefully they'll arrive in a reasonable amount of time before the season is in full swing (at least here in Maryland)! I wish Paul at EM3ev sold the Q100 and provided the integration like he does for the MAC motor (I have one of those from my first build). I will either achieve great success in my testing or burn out the motor.

If you get answer, please post!

Lee

 

[motomech]

tomjasz-

I have several 6FET 3077 lyen controllers with CA3 connectors and a couple of CA3's and a CA2.4. Am i all set for controllers?
Better off with little sine waves and another display?

I had an unfettered 3077 on a MXUS geared mini, a motor slightly larger than the Cute and it was too much. On 46V Lipo, it would hammer the gears, so w/ a Q100, it would deffinately need some taming.
But for most Q100 builds, the expensive Infineon/CA3 hardware is overkill. The beauty of a low-powered system is that it doesn't need "throttle taming" or "Current profiling" to be user friendly and even a "dumb" 3-speed limiting PAS will cover the limited over-the-road speed range of a low powered system.
The idiosyncrasies of the SO6S/SLCD-3/5 sine wave controller/display is worth it because of the 5-range CURRENT limiting feature on the PAS. It's really sweet and if the rider likes lot's of info, it's there. I had a couple of early versions, but they didn't want to play nice w/ my odd LiPoly Voltage(12S and 13S). And since I didn';t want the display on my bars, I went w/ the fool-proof ELB /810 display. It's not rocket science to get the sine wave set up, but sometimes they can be finicky.

BTW-I'm not sure the 3077's could have come from LYen. He has never listed a 6-FET on his site other than the 4110(Had one of those too).

P.S.- Since you already have them, the 3077's can certainly be made to work w/ mini motors by taming them down if you don't want to/can't sell them. One CA on the bars is not too unstealthy, but two, not so much.

 

[motomech]

@docw009: Yep, the S12 or the 17 amp elife bike, or probably any 9fet controller is going to be huge compared to those mini 6fet controllers.

That elifebike 250watt controller is 12 amp
the 350 watt controller is 14 amp
or their 9 mosfet controller is 17 amp

@ majornelson
Karl wrote an interesting article on using an inexpensive watt meter as a trouble shooting device.
https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/02/11/16-50-fuel-gaugetroubleshooterwatt-meter-for-your-electric-fatbike/

This unit is quite handy to use as a troubleshooting device as well as just using it as a low budget fuel gauge. If the battery cuts out on your BBS02 often it is not immediately obvious if the battery pack has hit the low voltage cutoff or if the BMS has shut down. If you have this device in between the battery and the controller then it is obvious what has failed because if the battery is still producing power then the display will be on, if the display has gone dark then the battery is your issue.

That elifebike 250watt controller is 12 amp
the 350 watt controller is 14 amp
or their 9 mosfet controller is 17 amp

They also offer a 9-FET 20 AMP. If the two shunts are pushed together and a bit of solder is added, it's a nice 25 Amp'er while retaining it's "soft start" nature

 

[tomjasz]

BTW-I'm not sure the 3077's could have come from LYen. He has never listed a 6-FET on his site other than the 4110(Had one of those too).

P.S.- Since you already have them, the 3077's can certainly be made to work w/ mini motors by taming them down if you don't want to/can't sell them. One CA on the bars is not too unstealthy, but two, not so much.

Thanks very much. They are marked Lyen and defintely came from him. My first was an upgrade on a kitbi picked up from a shop that got it as a return, with a Mxus 200 or 250w little GD. I picked up a couple more on a trade for some other parts. One was to upgrade a pal with a 750W DD, but he opted for a $15 replacement. These sold in the $50 - $60 range.

Id have no issue selling them. I'll keep one and the Mxus as a backuo for the mrs and her BBS01. She likes just a very mild assist.

So, that leaves me needing controllers. What would be your best suggestion? I have a diagram for a two motor setup, one teslanv posted. Sensible in your opinion? I dont think Barent used it on these little guys.

BTW you have my favorite triangle on your 07 GT bike. The last version was even nicer. Stickiest velcro ever.

 

[motomech]

Yes and it gets kinda confusing, but I think I understand, the 250W has 3 gears, the 350W has 6 and can run at 48V. Correct ?

Seems to me someone had problems with Lyen? Couldn’t quite keep up with the pulses or something?

All of the 36v motors are basically the same as I recall. Just 3 different windings 201, 260, 328. Roughly a 5mph difference between the 3 (15, 20, 25mph). The motor itself doesn’t really doesn’t have the power to do much over 20mph, so the 328 would need some assistance (either with a strong/light rider or a second motor) to stay in its happy place.

There isn’t really a 250 watt motor – unless you are talking about one of the 24v models (which is looks to me to have different reduction gears inside).

All of the 36v motors are basically the same as I recall. Just 3 different windings 201, 260, 328. Roughly a 5mph difference between the 3 (15, 20, 25mph). The motor itself doesn’t really doesn’t have the power to do much over 20mph, so the 328 would need some assistance (either with a strong/light rider or a second motor) to stay in its happy place.

Actually, from the motors that I have opened up, the difference seems to be the reduction gearing and not the winds. I counted the # of teeth and compared the actual reduction ratios to the theoretical top speeds and found a profound correlation. Right now, my thinking is, except for the CST version, the windings are basicly the same for all versions and the "H" models increased power handling capacity is likely due to stronger magnets.

 

[motomech]

So you are serious about 2WD?
Which controllers? Depends on the motors and of course, the combined systems depend what you want out of the bike.
My first 3 or 4 versions of Q100 X 2 were assist plus bikes. Typical low-power Cute on the rear, which forced me to pedal and another on the frt. when I needed it for climbing a steep hill, squirting across a busy street, etc. During that time, I was playing around w/ different motor speed combos and Amperages and one of the first things I learned was, for mini-motors, It's best to use two of the same speed ratings. Two of the same motors "pull" each other along and builds on the performance profile of that particular motor. Together, they dig down a little deeper, have a little more top speed(how much depends of the motor speed range) and a lot more mid-range power, which is good for a mini.
All builds were the same bike and batteries, noted in my sig.

2) Q100 "201" "Low speed motors"-Good "jump off the line", best climbing, little top speed increase because the no-load speed curve drops off fast(RPM limited), 18 to 19 mph w/ one motor, 20 to 21 mph w/ two.

2) Q100 "328" "High speed motors"-OK start, lazy mid range, amazing top speed increase. A single 328 in a big wheel is CURRENT limited to 22 to 23 mph. It wants more amps and forces the controller to run at max. most of the time, causing it the run hot. Two motors halve the load and allow each 328 to approach their rpm limits. 27 to 28 mph. Good for long top speed runs, if the controllers will take the heat. Not that great around town.

2) Q100 "260" Mid-range motors"-Best all around, almost as strong down low as 201 X 2(this is true for single motor as well), strong mid-range and 3 mph increase in top speed. Single motor 22 to 23 mph, two motors 25 to 26 mph.

So, what's wrong w/ 260 X 2?
Well, this build was obviously a pr. of "H" 's, since the 260 is not available as a cassette mounting CST. Now if one has a phobia against the Enoch DNP, this could be a deal breaker. I used to hate them, but these days, they seem smoother and quieter and since I have learned to re-adjust the derailleur for them, shift fine. What I don't like about them is, if the bike is for assist and one pedals a lot, when the sm. 11T gear wears out, the whole free wheel needs replaced. Another $40. The free wheel application brings me to,....

A Change In Purpose.

Universal Ebike Law Number One;

"The amount of pedal effort applied is inversely proportional to the amount of motor power available."

By now, w/ 2 Q100H's being fed near 1000 Watts ea., the thing was becoming more of an electric mini bike than an assist Ebike. Since the Rocky Mountain never pedaled very well anyhow, I built another dedicated assist bike and explored adding even more power for a, rarely pedaled, UAB(Urban Assault Bike);



Current bike as described in sig.

Note: derailleur adjusted up and further under for free wheel use.

Other mods visible and not visible;
Removed frt. shifter ASM
50T chain ring w/ pant's leg protector.
Short crank arms.
Fox shock tuned w/ Fox's displacement volume tuning kit for....umm, plus sized riders

Part II coming, other motors, combining controllers(or not )and other things pertaining to 2WD.

 

[chas58]

Yeah, I stayed away from the Epoc DNP freewheel after reading the dislike for it.

Shimano makes a 13t freewheel; with a 53t front chain ring, that is 113 gear inches, which is a reasonable 75rpm at 25mph (well, that is way slow for me personally)

Another option is the IRD Defiant MkIII 7 Speed Freewheel. That one is a lot better quality for about $50 (min 13t)

 

[tomjasz]

I take a lot of things with a grain of salt, and sure enough the DNP freewheels have been fine. No problems here in 3 years of use. Entering year 4.

 

[tomjasz]

Well i guess the 260's if i can find but a pair of 201's would suit me fine. I'll have the 2wd mac first for more speed than i need and the Q version as a backup. I just like them and am drwan to the size. Heck theyre not much bigger than a hub dynamo. With a couple of custom batteries and some planing i think i can get a fairly stealthy build too. Its a disease...

Thanks, ill keep you abreast as i continue the search. CST not needed to make me happy.

 

[tomjasz]

So you are serious about 2WD?
Which controllers? Depends on the motors and of course, the combined systems depend what you want out of the bike. .

Yes and I'd like to consider the 260's but could easily be satisfied with 201's. Which controllers would the users here be most happy with?

 

[motomech]

It's generaly thought that the SO6S/SLCD-3 offers the best PAS interface for the money. Whether or not it's right for you is hard to say. There are literaly hundreds of posts on the BMS Battery sine wave controller here and you need to read back thru them and decide. I wouldn't wouldn't use two of them unless you wanted to try running one throttle into two controllers, but if you want to do that, maybe the CA would be your best bet. Often, when a throttle signal is split, it's quality is degraded. Some have used a CA output for the second signal. I can't say more than that about one throttle into two controller because I only worked w/ that briefly. I decided early on I wanted two throttles for independent motor control. After trying several configurations, I went w/this set-up;


Thumb next to a left-hand, half-twist.
It works really well, especialy since I'm running the rear motor w/ PAS 90% of the time and just "stab" the thumb when I want the frt. motor.
All very simple and in that vein, I'm using a pr. of simple ELB square wave, 3-speed limiting controllers. I'm still stuck with two displays on the bars, but they are small and use sm. rows of led lites. They don't stand out like the blue screen of the SLCD displays;

By using the square wave controller, I give up a little of PAS "sweetness" in the sense there is a slight delay to activate and it "over-runs" a second or two. But to start, since I'm lazy w/ this bike and don't shift out of high, I use the frt. motor till the PAS kicks in. As for the over-run, that's what the Ebrake is for(necessary w/ PAS).
So that is my controller set-up, simple and reliable. Which is good because installing 25 Ah of LiPoly was rather involved, not mention maintaining it.

First install, The Rat's Nest


Second try, a little better.

 

[majornelson]

Following up on my issue regarding the Q100 cutting out after 5 - 10 minutes using a Luna 52v mini battery. More to come as I have an elifebike controller and a 6 FET BMSBattery controller on the way.

I've isolated the issue to the Greenbikekit.com controller and my Luna 52v battery. I've swapped out the controller (with same), the battery (with same) and re-checked all of the wires etc. As someone suggested early in this issue, I was most likely pushing too many volts to the controller and they speculated that the controller had 50v caps. I believe that is correct.

The puzzling thing to me was that I had run this exact configuration on another bike without issue. But I did notice that the latest greenbikekit.com sine wave 6 FET controller had slightly different connectors. My guess is that I was pushing my prior controller to the limits (52v nominal is 57v at full charge). The newer one had less flexibility.

This weekend, I substituted an old Lipo battery (no BMS, 2p6s, full charge at about 51v and 5ah) for the Luna battery and the bike works great. No cutouts on the motor even when pushed at PAS level 5 for extended periods. So it was not a heat issue (overall) with the controller or cutoff from the battery. Just pushing the caps on the controller too hard with the higher voltage battery which would cause the controller to cut out.

I really don't want to go back to HobbyKing Lipo given that it has no BMS and is a hassle for me to charge. Plus I have already purchased the Luna battery. And I'd like a 350 watt hour battery (like the Luna) vs. the 225 watt hour of the HobbyKing lipos. I plan on testing the two controllers I have coming in. Hopefully the BMS 6 FET sine wave controller can handle the voltage as it can also connect to the LCD display and supports the five levels of PAS. And the sine wave controllers are noticeably more quiet than the traditional controllers. Almost silent.

If these don't work, I believe my choices are to either get a custom battery at 36v (or a max 48v) and 7 ah (or so) made that is similar to the Luna or go with the Infineon controller from em3ev.com, a three way switch and use the software to flash it so it doesn't drive the Q100 too hard. But I'll miss the display with this setup and it does add a "whine" to the Q100 that I don't notice with the sine wave controller.

Thoughts?

Lee

 

[motomech]

As someone suggested early in this issue, I was most likely pushing too many volts to the controller and they speculated that the controller had 50v caps. I believe that is correct.

That would be me.

The puzzling thing to me was that I had run this exact configuration on another bike without issue.

I would attribute this to "Chinese Tolerances".

This weekend, I substituted an old Lipo battery (no BMS, 2p6s, full charge at about 51v and 5ah) for the Luna battery and the bike works great. No cutouts on the motor even when pushed at PAS level 5 for extended periods

Then why not call it a day? Are you concerned that if you went w/ a larger capacity 52V battery, the cut-out prob. would return? I seems to me, that would be quite likely.

I plan on testing the two controllers I have coming in. Hopefully the BMS 6 FET sine wave controller can handle the voltage as it can also connect to the LCD display and supports the five levels of PAS. And the sine wave controllers are noticeably more quiet than the traditional controllers. Almost silent.

They both should work ok. Since they are 48V controllers, they will have 64V cap.s. 57 Volts is below even "Chinese Tolerances".
I had a ELB 6-FET, but it was too low powered, even for a Q100C. Wondering what was going on, I measured it, 12 Amps max. I soldered the shunt to get 14-15 Amps, better, but since I had room in the frame bag, I went w/ the 17A 9-FET. It was very low noise and very smooth, as one would expect @ that power level. As I recall, It was near as silent on the CST as the BMS B. sine wave.
Like me, it seems like you are accumulating quite a supply of "spares". You will have to have a "fire-sale" or do another build The ELB controllers have a LVC of 42V, perfect for 12S LiPoly.
And I have a slightly used 328C

 

[chas58]

Yes, their 100 controllers are rated at 12, 14, or 17 amp depending on which one to purchase. It pays to read the fine print, something which I failed to do. Even the square wave controllers are very very quiet with 36 V. I'm guessing people Having noise are running at 48 or more voltage

 

[majornelson]

motomech- Yep, you pointed out the voltage issue almost as soon as I reported it! And I have *too* many spare parts and a couple of old steel bikes in my shed... but I only seem to be able to ride one bike at a time.

chas58- I remember you mentioning that EM3ev built the 36v battery, is this correct?

The lipo works but it takes more management without a bms. And the whole setup (in the green bag) was built around the 52v luna motor which is pretty light weight. (So is the lipo.)

I've been reconfiguring my setup to first test the BMS controller with the luna. Unfortunately, the genders and pinouts on the bmsbattery controller are slightly different from the greenbikekit parts already on the bike. PITA. But I've been slowly working through each one and should be good to go for a test ride this weekend.

I'll report back.

 

[tomjasz]

chas58- I remember you mentioning that EM3ev built the 36v battery, is this correct?

I have a EM3ev 36V battery and it's in it's 4th year. Still going strong. The good news is they are even more robustly built then they were when I bought mine. I suspect they are among the best built batteries on the market and with a warranty too.

 

[motomech]

motomech- Yep, you pointed out the voltage issue almost as soon as I reported it! And I have *too* many spare parts and a couple of old steel bikes in my shed... but I only seem to be able to ride one bike at a time.

chas58- I remember you mentioning that EM3ev built the 36v battery, is this correct?

The lipo works but it takes more management without a bms. And the whole setup (in the green bag) was built around the 52v luna motor which is pretty light weight. (So is the lipo.)

I've been reconfiguring my setup to first test the BMS controller with the luna. Unfortunately, the genders and pinouts on the bmsbattery controller are slightly different from the greenbikekit parts already on the bike. PITA. But I've been slowly working through each one and should be good to go for a test ride this weekend.

I'll report back.

When I reread your posts, one of the things I was trying to determine was whether or not you had ordered a BMS B. display to go w/ the BMS B. controller. I came away thinking you did, but now, I'm not so sure.
Dave (D8veh), has stated that the BMS B. sine wave controllers must be used w/ BMS B. displays, so if you you are thinking of trying to combine the two different brands, I don't think that will work.

 

[majornelson]

When I reread your posts, one of the things I was trying to determine was whether or not you had ordered a BMS B. display to go w/ the BMS B. controller. I came away thinking you did, but now, I'm not so sure.
Dave (D8veh), has stated that the BMS B. sine wave controllers must be used w/ BMS B. displays, so if you you are thinking of trying to combine the two different brands, I don't think that will work.

Motomech-

Although I did order a BMS B. display, it was the same display that I received from greenbikekit (gbk) and the gbk works with BMS B. sine wave controllers. (So now I have an extra display!)

="tomjasz"]

I have a EM3ev 36V battery and it's in it's 4th year. Still going strong. The good news is they are even more robustly built then they were when I bought mine. I suspect they are among the best built batteries on the market and with a warranty too.

tomjasz- I agree! I have two other EM3ev batteries that have been terrific. For this build, I'm looking for a relatively light weigh, compact battery. I'm just using it to provide a little extra assist when I peddle. The Luna Mighty Mini is a little over 3 lbs. and is 52v and 6ah. I think that Paul would have to build a custom battery (and I think that chas58 has one from him?). My real issue is that the luna puts out too many volts to be reliably used with the small 36v controller I have. I seem to have had difficulty accepting this in the past!

So here is my update from today:

I ended up with three controllers- BMS B. 6 fet (36v 250w), BMS B. 12 fet (36v,48v 500w) and the diymodped.com 6 fet (48v 250w). Here's what I found today on a couple of extended rides:
- The BMS B. 6 fet is the same as the gbk sine wave and, just like it, cut out after a mile or so, as I pushed over 50v to it from the luna. I was hoping it would magically work even though it was rated for 36v but it didn't. Not surprised just disappointed.
- I then used my 45v lipo setup and was able to go about five miles and then the 6 fet 36v controller started to cut out. I checked the controller and it wasn't hot or even mildly warm.

Anyway, I'm either going to use the 12 fet sine wave controller from BMS B (I really like the LCD display with speed, etc.) with the 52v Luna battery. I'm only using PAS and I peddle. So, If I keep the PAS setting low (it goes from 1 - 5) like around 2 or 3, do I still risk burning out the motor because of the 500w power from the controller? If there is still risk, I'll use the diymoped.com controller and just make do with the LED display. It's not bad at all but the LCD is nice!

Anyway, as always, I'd appreciate any feedback.

Lee

 

[ScooterMan101]

My Road bike with the 201 Rpm , Q100c CST first in a 650b wheel then another Q100c CST 201 rpm in a 700c wheel , has always run with a generic Kuntang 48 volt controller , rated at 7 amps current, max current 15 amps + / - 1 amp.

I have nearly 600 miles on the bike , with that controller and the S-LCD Display from BMS Battery. They work together just fine,

At first I was using a 13s ( 48 volt ) 18650 type battery rated at max discharge 2c , 11 amp hour pack, or so advertised.

For the Last 9 rides I have been using Hobby King Lipo's 2 x 7 s packs for a 14 s pack at 5amps or 4 together for 10 amps total capacity.

I typically charge the 7s packs to about 4.15 v per cell so with a 14s configuration it comes to 58 volts , the S-LCD 3 Display works fine at that voltage
However
If I charge the 7s packs to 4.19 to 4.20 volts per cell , the S-LCD 3 display will not show the battery level icon until I get to around 58 volts. ( Display still works , it just does not show the battery icon with the 4 sections darkened. )

The one thing that the S-LCD 3 Display will show is how many watts you are using, it is no where near as good as the Cycle Analyst because the S-LCD 3 Display shows the watts being used ... several times a second.

I have been watching it when I am going up hills , and when on full throttle, and it is showing 450-500 watts on flat ground full throttle, and up to 700 watts going up hill, with throttle backed off at least half.
( does not matter if I have full throttle or half throttle while going up hills, the display is showing 600-700 watts because it is trying to maintain the speed I was going before the up hill.

So

The little Q100c CST will handle more than you think, But I change the throttle every so often so that I am not running at the higher wattage's for longer than a few minutes at a time, I also get up to speed then sometimes shut off the throttle completely until I slow down 5 miles per hour than the speed that I was maintaining , then apply the throttle again, so in other words I am not running the little Q100c CST at over 450 watts for long times .

 

[majornelson]

ScooterMan101,

Thanks. And a great suggestion. I ordered the S-LCD 3 display to replace my existing LCD display. It's great to be able to monitor the motor temps and watts.

I took the bike out today and it performed flawlessly wit the larger controller but I was careful to keep the assist level low. It would be great to monitor it as I go.

Lee

 

[chas58]

yes, em3ev will build custom configurations, just ask. My lightweight build is just over 3lbs.

Glad they last long. My GBK battery lasted ~ 2 years. I bought LifeP04 back in the day because I could recharge it thousands of times. I got a couple dozen charges out of it. The EM3 battery got a charge/discharge cycle about twice a day last year, and is going strong.

 

[ScooterMan101]

Looks like more new e-bike builders will need to read this Fourm.

 

[d8veh]

Something a lot of people seem to be missing: Those KT controllers use current control on the PAS. The PAS is so good that you don't need a throttle for normal riding, though they are always useful in some circumstances. The current is limited to a different level in each PAS level, so you can use a high current controller, like the S12S, with a small motor, like a Q100 as long as you start with PAS (not throttle) set to a low level and you only use level 5 when you're up to speed.

The current is held absolutely steady when pedalling in each level. You can see it in the image below from my Speedict. the interruptions are when I stopped pedalling. This is a 15A KT controller. You can see levels of about 3,4,6, and 15A, which will be levels 1, 2, 3 and 5 on the LCD

Bear in mind that the back EMF from the motor will limit the current to less than the controller anyway when you get up to speed, so, realistically, you can only take advantage of the higher current in the mid-range.

 

[chas58]

thanks Dave, that is good to see and understand. I see the 4 different PAS (current settings) you were using by tracking the yellow line on that graph. Nice to see it so clearly.

I assume the older controllers work similar to a throttle, where in effect the power is basically speed limited, but would provide similar actual power at lower speeds?

 

[d8veh]

That's right. Each PAS level is a target speed. They give high power whenever you start, and it decreases as you approach the target speed. The KT current control ones give constant power at all speeds until the back emf from the motor reduces the current below what the controller allows.