Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

[lowellbert]

On second thought...

That motor is 145mm, which is huge.

The spacer is 17mm, and the nut is 3mm, for 20mm savings. But, you may need some room for the free wheel. I would guess you can reduce the width 15-20mm max. Maybe 15mm, maybe more. If you have a steel frame, it might work. But either way you'll have to bend the frame a bit.

All versions of the Q128 listed @ BMS Battery are 135 mm drop-out motors.
I don't know if ELB needs to up-date their product page or they are selling New Old Stock.
The 145 mm motor was also considered to be an under-performer, so unless ELB can clarify what motor it actually is, I would avoid it.

Thanks for your help, I would like to avoid bending my frame. I think I will go with this Q100H 36V 350W rear hub motor and remove the adapter spacer to fit my 120mm drop.

Thanks for your help.

 

[chas58]

Beautiful build, I love it!!! Something around 48V is great for the "201" Q100 (if you aren't bogging down climbing long hills).

I think the 52v +CON63+Q100 (201 rpm) is a nice setup if you're looking for something lightweight, speeds around 20 mph+ and relatively flat terrain i.e. rolling hills not mountains.

This build thread by chas58 shows what great bikes you can make.

I'm posting some before and after pics here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84433

 

[chas58]

Thanks for your help, I would like to avoid bending my frame. I think I will go with this Q100H 36V 350W rear hub motor and remove the adapter spacer to fit my 120mm drop.

Thanks for your help.

YOu are welcome.

I felt pretty confident doing my 120mm single speed build on a Q100, once I found the engineering diagrams showing the rear hub motor with a 120mm dropout. I can imagine it being used as a single speed a lot in China, not sure why no one sells this version. I guess there isn't much of a demand for it, but it is a great motor for a single speed. No need to shift with this motor if you don't have steep hills.

 

[Aurinko80]

- Would the 328rpm version of Q100 do well with a 36V battery in a road bike and flat ground?
- Is there a substantial difference why to choose front/rear motor?
- Have you found any controllers that could be made somewhat invisible and/or thief proof?

Got absolutely tired of cycling long distances in my current fat bike and ordered a new road bike. I have previously done ~100 mile/day trips on a normal hybrid bike (very low speed) and now the dream is to make the same ~100 mile trip on an electric road bike with a 20-25 mph avg speed. I have a couple of 36V batteries so the voltage is set.

 

[Khumarahn]

- 328rpm Q100 with 36V battery on a road bike and flat ground is very nice, if you are willing to pedal a bit. 328 rpm correspond to the speed of around 25 miles per hour, and this is easy to reach and maintain. I had a bicycle like this for a while, and loved it.
- I used the rear motor, because I like how it looks more.

 

[chas58]

I’m using the 328 on my road bike with 36v and moderate hills.

Yep, the motor will be happiest at 25mph with you pedaling to help a bit. It will do about 22mph without pedaling, but you really should be helping that little motor at those speeds.

I did have a couple of controllers overheat in a bag when using full power for an hour. They didn’t get that hot – just felt a little warm to the touch, but that was enough. Since then I’ve had them in open fresh air, and on a heat sink, so no problems for several years.

If you use the moderate 15amp controller, the motor won’t overheat if you keep it above 14mph. I’ve never had overheating issues with the motor even with some moderate hill climbing – but I wouldn’t leave it at full power at low speed for too long…

I’ve been using the little 6fet controllers. They are pretty small – you could even hide them under a big seat. They do make a little plastic case for them if you want to try that, although that won’t keep them cool. I never used my case. Some people have tried stripping (removing the case and unused wires) and sticking them under their seat (above the seat rails), but that doesn’t sound too robust to me.

Front or rear motor is a personal choice. These motors don’t have a ton of torque. For the front, you should have a steel fork and torque arms, but if you are sure you are never going to spin the wheel, you could probably get by without any of that. Just keep in mind, if the fork brakes, you are going to crash hard – those aluminum forks have pretty brittle dropouts. The motors don’t weigh too much and are not too strong, so you could go either way.

 

[motomech]

I agree with most of that. I actually melted the cheap bullet connectors for the phase wires w/a 328/6-FET controller combo. With a high speed mini, if the rev's fall while climbing a hill, the controller tries to give it max Amps.
The thing to consider is, the Q100 "260" in a 26" whl. on 48 Volts will do 22 mph, but will not "over-rev" much w/ leg power. So folks that are not really good cyclists are probably better off w/the 260 speed.
I think with at least one torque arm, a Q100 can be used with most forks, even suspension forks. The thing here is, the better the quality of the forks, the stronger they are. They have thicker drop-outs and stronger alloys. I would say any fork that is used on a mid-level mountain bike would be ok for the Q100. MTBR forums is a good place to ck. how good a set of donor forks are.

 

[majornelson]

Quick question for the Q!00 crowd...

I have a standard, silver Q100 freewheel hub motor and also a Q100CST hub motor. Is there any major difference (other than freewheel vs. cassette) between the two? Power, torque, speed, etc.? They're both 201 rpm and would work with the same 15 amp sine wave controller.

Thx!
Lee

 

[motomech]

The stator on the CST is about 30% more narrow to make room for the cassette and it will make less "power" than the standard in the same system. Not 30% less, maybe 15%.
The "H" version can make approx.15% more than the standard, so the logical take-a-way is the H will have around 30% more power ability/capability (not sure what ratio) than the CST.

 

[majornelson]

The stator on the CST is about 30% more narrow to make room for the cassette and it will make less "power" than the standard in the same system. Not 30% less, maybe 15%.
The "H" version can make approx.15% more than the standard, so the logical take-a-way is the H will have around 30% more power ability/capability (not sure what ratio) than the CST.

Thanks! Does that make the CST version more efficient than the Q100 or Q100H, which I guess would mean more range for a given number of AH's?

I'm planning to build out a training bike similar to chas58's V2 bike. I plan to use a 6 - 7 AH battery with the setup @ 52v.

Lee

 

[chas58]

No, the CST is less efficient as in the ability to handle extra power or maybe extra torque. The CST can take less power than the Q100H.

Just generalizing, but the newer Q100H motor appears to have more torque (at the same power) and be able to take more power before it has problems. 52v is a lot for the motor - you may run into durability issues (especially if you push it hard). Its probably doable, just realize you are outside of the design parameters and treat it accordingly. That could work fairly well with a nominal 201rpm (36v) motor at 52v.

It is really the thickness of the laminations (not the stator) that determines efficiency, but you aren't going to see a huge change in range with a more efficient motor.

 

[majornelson]

Chas58,

So, if you had a Q100 and Q100CST, which one would you use for a drop-bar, training bike with PAS only?

I'll have to have a wheel laced regardless. I do have a 9 speed cassette on the existing bike but I also found a 9 speed freewheel on Amazon...

Lee

 

[motomech]

I would go W/ the CST, especially if it fit the bike w/ minimal "dishing".
For a "trainer", power out-put is not really a concern and you will likely 'rowing thru the gears", 3 or 4 of 'em anyhow.
As for fit, on my Rocky Mountain, I couldn't get the CST to work without extreem dishing, adding washers under the brake caliper, spreading the chain stays, etc. On my other bike, the brk. disc lined right up and the rim required only moderate dishing.
I don't think there is any way to know without trying, but should be able to "mock-up" your bare motors to get an idea which might be the best fit.
One of the reasons I prefer the cassette is, I can use cheap ones, the kind where the pins fall out, and then remove 1 or 2 of the larger gears
But going to a DNP is not that bad. Some seem smoother than others and these days I pack on lot's of grease into the rachet mechanisum. I also use an 8-speed with my 9-speed bike as it seem to shift a little better.
The Enoch has "shark fin" shaped teeth, so the under idler wheel adjustment is important so the chain won't slip.

 

[chas58]

Chas58,

So, if you had a Q100 and Q100CST, which one would you use for a drop-bar, training bike with PAS only?

I'll have to have a wheel laced regardless. I do have a 9 speed cassette on the existing bike but I also found a 9 speed freewheel on Amazon...

Lee

I don't think there is that much of a difference between the two, especially if you are adding pedal power. I would use the CST to keep a good 9 speed cluster on the rear.

(then again, with a powered bike, I don't really shift around here, unless it is a fairly steep hill...) You certainly will have a larger selection of cassettes than 9-speed freewheels, and the option of better quality too. Those freewheels tend to be so heavy (lighter than a motor though, lol)).

 

[majornelson]

I don't think there is that much of a difference between the two, especially if you are adding pedal power. I would use the CST to keep a good 9 speed cluster on the rear.

(then again, with a powered bike, I don't really shift around here, unless it is a fairly steep hill...) You certainly will have a larger selection of cassettes than 9-speed freewheels, and the option of better quality too. Those freewheels tend to be so heavy (lighter than a motor though, lol)).

Agreed! I've been debating on which bike to "juice". I have a Rivendell H. Homer Hilsen steel frame that's terrific but really a "country road-ish" steel frame with 105 components and 38mm tires. Love the bike (heavier) but it's not as twitchy or active as my Trek carbon or my recently converted '84 Schwinn Super Sport (to a city bike). I have an two older 80-ish Fujis- mid-quality types (in my shed), and a fully upgraded component-wise '85 Trek 620 I could add the motor to. And a 1987 Cannondale ST600, aluminum frame, in great condition but it would need new wheels, brakes, crank to be a candidate. And I don't think that aluminum rear forks will bend well (I think the rear is 130mm and the Q100 is 135mm - don't mind doing it to steel frames).

I really like you're Specialized v2 bike. Looked for it on craigslist but not available now.. Also considered some classic new steel frames from Velo-Orange, Soma Fab and Surly but it's a big investment to start there once I add needed components and then the ebike stuff.

I also like a taller stem (equal to the seat height - bad back) so the quill stems are more flexible than the threadless in terms of height adjustment. Just one more thing complicating the equation...

Any thoughts or recommendations appreciated.

Lee

 

[ScooterMan101]

Here are a couple of items that will be of interest.

Last I checked my , not so local , local bike shop that sells Specialized , says The Road Drop Bar with the 15mm rise is on back order to sometime mid or latter this month.

With that Handlebar, and , the multi adjustable ( by way of shim insert ) Comp Multi Stem , you might even get a centimeter or so higher rise .

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/equipment/components/comp-multi-stem/116813 ( you order the length you want and the rise you want from 4D to 24D )

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/equipment/components/hover-expert-alloy-handlebars-15mm-rise/118174

or if you win the lotto ...
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/equipment/components/sworks-aerofly-carbon-handlebars-25mm-rise/118175

I also like a taller stem (equal to the seat height - bad back) so the quill stems are more flexible than the threadless in terms of height adjustment. Just one more thing complicating the equation...

Any thoughts or recommendations appreciated.

Lee

 

[fat&slow]

Hi chas! Thank you for the informative and entertaining thread. I read through hastily and didn't catch if you were still using the original motors without any maintenance or repairs? How many km's do you estimate you have ridden with these motors?

 

[ScooterMan101]

Chas58

Yes I also want to know how the motors are holding up, especially the 328 rpm Q100 in a 700c wheel ? (since there is a split of opinions on putting a 328 wind on a 700c wheel )
Personally the 201 Winding on my Q100c cst is not getting me the speed I need, and is loosing 2-3 mph as the 48 volt battery loses even just a couple of amps of capacity . So it is either a 328 Q100c or a Q128 C 328 winding , or Friction Drive for me soon.

I forgot , you are using 12s battery on the Q100 with 328 rpm windings ?

 

[docw009]

BMSBattery shipped me a Q100H in less than 5 working days. Chinese New Years starts this week and most of the businesses, aside from restaurants shut down for a week, so the motor just made it. I was happy to see that it comes fitted with a 9 pin motor connector, plus a matching connector to splice onto one's controller.

It checked in at 4.8 pounds. I bought the 36V 260 RPM Q100H. In hindsight, perhaps the Q100C would have been better. The intended bike has an 11-34T cassette, and there aren't many options in a freewheel, but I found one. I did want to keep the same gearing because your feet can spin like mad with a 14T sprocket on a folder.

Wheel is on order. When it arrives, I'll measure for spokes. It was $100 extra in total to buy the bike with a wheel. I'd rather lace it myself. Don't save much money, but the money stays with US sellers (although they import the spokes/rims too).

The battery will either be my three pound 52V Luna Mini or my three pound 36V Ryobi tool battery. Both will fit in a under-the-seat-bag that I found on ebay. I will use a small 36-48V controller with PAS and thumb throttle.

My current full suspension folder is a bit heavy at 32 pounds. I have my eye on a lighter one.

 

[majornelson]

docw009,

What brand/model is your full suspension folder bike?

Lee

 

[docw009]

Brand of folder? I have a Downtube FS-8. 135mm rear drop out. Alloy frame. I was considering their lighter non suspension Nova which is 24 lb, but I'm not toting this on public transport.

 

[majornelson]

Got it. Thanks.

 

[chas58]

The motors are fine.

Last year I was doing 40-50 mile daily commutes at 25mph with the little motors and little battery (10s3p)

Early on I had burned out some controllers on the mountain bike (300rpm motor) if I ran them at full throttle for over an hour inside the frame pack. But putting the controller in fresh air solves the problem. Regular running 2 hours a day isn't a problem.

It really doesn't make much difference if you use a 26 or 700c wheel. It depends on the tires, but the rolling diameter is basically the same. My 328rpm motor likes the "bigger" 700c wheels as the rim and tire are so much lighter and faster than a mountain bike tire. So, I use the slower motor on the smaller tires.

I've been running studded tires this winter, which are god awful slow on a non motorized bike. But, they work great on an e-bike. My only problem is wind chill!

as for the 48v, well the problem you described is why Luna Cycles sells 52v batteries. As for you specifically, if you have a 48v battery, you could use the 260rpm motor and get about 24-25mph. (or more specifically for you, your speed would increase 30%)

Chas58

Yes I also want to know how the motors are holding up, especially the 328 rpm Q100 in a 700c wheel ? (since there is a split of opinions on putting a 328 wind on a 700c wheel )
Personally the 201 Winding on my Q100c cst is not getting me the speed I need, and is loosing 2-3 mph as the 48 volt battery loses even just a couple of amps of capacity . So it is either a 328 Q100c or a Q128 C 328 winding , or Friction Drive for me soon.

I forgot , you are using 12s battery on the Q100 with 328 rpm windings ?

Hi chas! Thank you for the informative and entertaining thread. I read through hastily and didn't catch if you were still using the original motors without any maintenance or repairs? How many km's do you estimate you have ridden with these motors?

 

[majornelson]

Great picture!

 

[ScooterMan101]

This winter in My part of California has been unusually wet and colder than usual. 2.5 months of storm after storm has produced more rain than the previous 5 years.
Mud Slides and standing water on the roadways .
and when it has not been raining it has been cold, so I have felt what you talk about , the Wind Chill Factor.
In Fact because of this I have not done the testing that I have been wanting to do, since riding over 15 mph has made me very cold so I had mostly kept the speed down to 15 or less.

I did not get a 328 rpm Q100c , I bought the motor locally from someone who only had the 201 rpm version, so that is what I am running, I would rather have gotten a 260 rpm version of the Q100c but BMS Battery did not carry that , and I did not know about elife or greenbikekit companies, or if they even have a 260 rpm version of the cassette version of Q100.

Since my Last post I have started to use different batteries. Lipo now, first 2 x 6s packs (18 - 20 mph max ) , and now for the last 3 rides 2x 7s and for the last ride I had made my own Series/Parallel Harness so now using 4 x 7s Lipo's .

The 14 s is not giving me much speed faster than the 13s Li-Ion pack that I had, only about 1-2 mph faster, since I have the 201 rpm motor on 700c x 35mm tires, I am only getting about 21-22 mph or 23 top with me pedaling as hard as my legs and cardiovascular system can handle.
However I think part of the lack of expected/desired speed is the Aerodynamic Drag that I am getting/having when going 16 mph, My Road Bike is a Flat Bar Bike, upper body position is between a Road Bike and a Mountain Bike, and I usually have a beam rack on the seat post, which now carries 2 of the 4 7s packs.

To give you an Idea of Aerodynamic Factors , on my 2nd run with a 14s pack I saw a rider , on a back country road coming the opposite way, when we passed I noticed that he was riding a Specialized Shiv TT , so I turned around to see what kind of speed he was doing, he turned onto a road that goes up hill for a mile so I passed him there, and waited at the top, when he passed by I told him I was going to follow him only to the next road which is 0.8 of a Mile downhill, I was adjusting something so started off 3-4 seconds behind him, I gave the bike full throttle and peddled almost as fast as I could, but only got up to about 26-28 mph Max, Downhill . I did not even catch up to him ! less than a mile , and 231 feet of elevation drop , but because of his better Aerodynamics he, with no motor at all, was just a little faster than me .

In about a month I will experiment with a 16s pack , with the 201 rpm wind Q100c motor on 700c wheel and see what the difference is . from 13s to 14 s only produced 1-2 mph faster.

From what I have experienced on the Q100c so far , I think that a 260 rpm cassette version , with some improvements in the materials in the motor , ( tighter tolerances / better bearings / better or more grease , stronger clutch / etc. ) running on 14s - 16s is what it will take to be able to ride at the same rate as club riders,
at least for me .

Last year I was doing 40-50 mile daily commutes at 25mph with the little motors and little battery (10s3p)

Early on I had burned out some controllers on the mountain bike (300rpm motor) if I ran them at full throttle for over an hour inside the frame pack. But putting the controller in fresh air solves the problem. Regular running 2 hours a day isn't a problem.

as for the 48v, well the problem you described is why Luna Cycles sells 52v batteries. As for you specifically, if you have a 48v battery, you could use the 260rpm motor and get about 24-25mph. (or more specifically for you, your speed would increase 30%)