Direct-drive 3220 setup with a 3-Speed Hub...

[grwsaltspring]

Good Fun

Greg

 

[lesdit]

I think you need a full suspension bike for that road in the video !

Here's the short video. It turns out you can upload it directly from the iPhone. Amazing.

[youtube]VVlOBXe4a5o[/youtube]

 

[GGoodrum]

Great vid - how is the noise from the motor? That vid of recumpence's beautiful twin motor PK ripper was too loud for my stealth standards but yours sounds much quieter. I know that the DC motor in my VW is much more apparent in video than on tape, maybe I will try one of these builds after all.

-JD

PS - yep, Iphone 3GS rules

Yes, it is actually a lot quieter than I thought it would be. Right now I'm using an 11T motor sprocket, but because of the "chordal effect" (yea, Miles, I remembered... ), it could be quieter by simply going up a tooth, or two. 11t is right on the edge of where it starts to get really noisy. Even still, it makes less noise than the two-stage setup on my other folder. Also, a lot of the noise is coming from the regular chain, which is being driven by the motor right now. The FW in the crank keeps the pedals from being driven, but the chain still moves. This gets fixed today. I'm home now, and I have the first two of the new FW adapters I had made, to play with, so I'm going to redo the whole crank setup and go back to the stock crankset. This not only should make things quieter, it will solve another problem where the bike chain is flopping around at high speeds, because of the spring loaded tensioner I'm using. This tensioner works fine for pedaling, but when the motor is driving the chain, the tensioner unloads, and the bike chain keeps slapping up against the heavier #35 chain.

Here's a quick shot of the adapters:

View attachment FW Adapters-01.jpg

 

[GGoodrum]

Thanks for the vid Gary, looks like it pulls very nicely, was that a "too fast" i heard in the vid :lol:
not to derail, im thinking of getting the iphone 3gs - you approve then?


D

Yes, it definitely was a "too fast" comment. It took me about ten minutes to let go of the seat...

The 3Gs rocks! Absolutely amazing what this thing will do, and it is very fast, even on the 3G mode. Anyway, I'm loving it.

 

[GGoodrum]

I think you need a full suspension bike for that road in the video !

Yes, at least I think I need to let a little air out of the tires. That would smooth things down a bit. Of course, many would think it a bit nuts to try and go 35 mph on a 20" folding bike, and at a more reasonable 20-25, it isn't quite as jaw-rattling. Most of the racket you hear is the front basket, which definitely has a problem staying on, over 30+ mph bumps.

 

[methods]

Looking good.

Bob is getting blasted from all side about the hall sensor issue.
I really think the next step is to just convince him to do a one-off.
Ask if he can epoxy the hall sensors right into the motor.

If he can, --- just once---, place those halls where they should go then we can duplicate the spacing perfectly.

-methods


P.S. Dont get your leg caught in that meat grinder

 

[GGoodrum]

Looking good.

Bob is getting blasted from all side about the hall sensor issue.
I really think the next step is to just convince him to do a one-off.
Ask if he can epoxy the hall sensors right into the motor.

If he can, --- just once---, place those halls where they should go then we can duplicate the spacing perfectly.

-methods


P.S. Dont get your leg caught in that meat grinder

Actually, I don't think you can just glue hall sensors to the back end of the motor. He has to do it like the Cyclone motor, where there's a ring attached to the end of the shaft, with magnets on the ring. The hall sensors then go on a PCB, around the ring. Not sure the reasoning, but that is what he said.

Don't worry, the meat between my legs is safe, for now...

 

[drewjet]

Nice vid.

Love the freewheel adapter, any idea on price and availability?

 

[oatnet]

not to derail, im thinking of getting the iphone 3gs - you approve then?

The 3Gs rocks! Absolutely amazing what this thing will do, and it is very fast, even on the 3G mode. Anyway, I'm loving it.

iPhone is life-changing. I am more PC than Mac, but I had the 1st gen iphone, which was life-changing but too slow on EvDO to surf; the 3g, which was fast enough but the OS lagged; and now the 3GS has performance just right. It is my phone, my ipod (with WIreless stereo headphones), my email, my main surfing device, my GPS, sometimes my TV, my vidcam, my ghetto camera, and a million other things that are useful or fill time when I am bored or shopping with my wife. If you are thinking of it, all I can say is it so SOOO worth it, the permasmile rivals the EV permasmile.

-JD

 

[GGoodrum]

Nice vid.

Love the freewheel adapter, any idea on price and availability?

Not sure yet, but they should be pretty cheap. My guy is normally quite reasonable, and I told him to make about 50, or so. I also told him to have them all anodized black. I just need to do a fit check tomorrow, on the bike, and then I'll have him do the run. Depending on how busy he is, it could a couple days, or a week. The anodizing adds another day is all.

-- Gary

 

[GGoodrum]

I agree with JD. I too am not normally an Apple/Mac guy, but they really nailed it with the latest 3Gs iPhone. I got my daughter the original iPhone, but I held out for the 3G. Then, a few weeks ago, I gave my wife the 3G and I upgraded to the 3Gs. She wasn't too happy with a hand-me-down, until my son setup an irritating incessant dog bark as a ringtone for when I call. She's had some great fun with her tennis buddies over that. Freaks our cats out, though.

-- Gary

 

[deecanio]

LOL,

thanks for the info guys, SOLD!!!

Cheers,

D

 

[nomad85]

they arent worth the price though(to me) 130$ a month is twice what I pay for 3 lines with unlimited text, data and more minutes that I can use. If it were reasonably priced I might get one, are the 3GS' screens more durable, most of my friends have cracked there screen at some point.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Gary,

Nice vid.

Love the freewheel adapter, any idea on price and availability?

Not sure yet, but they should be pretty cheap. My guy is normally quite reasonable, and I told him to make about 50, or so. I also told him to have them all anodized black. I just need to do a fit check tomorrow, on the bike, and then I'll have him do the run. Depending on how busy he is, it could be a couple days, or a week. The anodizing adds another day is all.

-- Gary

I think you should get a price/weight of aluminum vs steel. When Matt had his (much smaller) FW adaptors made the weight difference was pretty substantial.

50 sounds like a lot to me if the only application is right hand drive with Nexus Hubs. How many drives has Matt sold and how many of those are being used with right hand drive with aNexus Hub?

 

[gwhy!]

Hi Gary,

Nice vid.

Love the freewheel adapter, any idea on price and availability?

Not sure yet, but they should be pretty cheap. My guy is normally quite reasonable, and I told him to make about 50, or so. I also told him to have them all anodized black. I just need to do a fit check tomorrow, on the bike, and then I'll have him do the run. Depending on how busy he is, it could be a couple days, or a week. The anodizing adds another day is all.

-- Gary

I think you should get a price/weight of aluminum vs steel. When Matt had his (much smaller) FW adaptors made the weight difference was pretty substantial.

50 sounds like a lot to me if the only application is right hand drive with Nexus Hubs. How many drives has Matt sold and how many of those are being used with right hand drive with aNexus Hub?

But it dont have to go on a nexus hub it will allow two indepent freewheels on the rear of the bike also which is a very good thing in my book anyway, thats my understanding of the adapter if im wrong can someone please let me know ..

Also I would like to ask will this adaptor be screwed to a wheel so its fixed and then put a freewheel onto the adaptor or dosnt it have a standard freewheel thread on the inside now that would be cool.

 

[GGoodrum]

I think you should get a price/weight of aluminum vs steel. When Matt had his (much smaller) FW adaptors made the weight difference was pretty substantial.

These are aluminum. The idea is that this adapter and the big sprocket are aluminum, to save weight, and then the 16T cog that is sandwiched between these two is hardened steel, as it is attached to the hub.

50 sounds like a lot to me if the only application is right hand drive with Nexus Hubs. How many drives has Matt sold and how many of those are being used with right hand drive with a Nexus Hub?

Although you can certainly use these with Matt's hub, the intent really was to come up with a much simpler direct-drive setup. Also, thee's a ton of single-speed cruiser-type bikes out there that use the same sort of three-splined cog, held on with a steel circlip. We have 5 or 6 of these beach cruisers down at our condo in SD. I'm thinking a six-wire 12-turn 3210, with one of Richard's new delta-wye switching widgets, would make a great two-speed commuter bike setup. Anyway, 50 seems like a good starting number, as it gets the per unit cost as low as possible. If I end up with a bunch of unused ones, I'll start a new pile, next to the 13" stack of unused prototype BMS boards.

-- Gary

 

[GGoodrum]

But it dont have to go on a nexus hub it will allow two indepent freewheels on the rear of the bike also which is a very good thing in my book anyway, thats my understanding of the adapter if im wrong can someone please let me know ..

Also I would like to ask will this adaptor be screwed to a wheel so its fixed and then put a freewheel onto the adaptor or dosnt it have a standard freewheel thread on the inside now that would be cool.

The purpose of this adapter is two-fold. First, it will allow either a multi or single-speed hub, with a three-splined removable cog, to have now two chains to the rear, one for the motor and one for the pedals. The second purpose is to put a second freewheel (the hub has one...) on there for pedal chain, so that the motor won't drive the pedals, or the chain going to the pedals. this eliminates the need for replacing the front crankset with one that has an embedded freewheel. The advantage of having the FW in the back is that with it in the crank, the chain will still move with the motor, but the pedals won't.

The way it works is pretty much the same way something like an IPS freewheeling crank works, which simply embeds a 16T BMX freewheel in the crankset. The four holes in the adapter, and the holes on the big sprocket, line up perfectly with a 16T sprocket. So, the 16T Nexus sprocket is "sandwiched" between the big #35 sprocket and the adapter. Then, you simply screw on a BMX freewheel (they come from 16t to 22t...), onto the adapter. I'll post some pics of this assembly, on this bike, a little later today.

-- Gary

 

[Ypedal]

* Information overload.... brainpain.... yoikes...

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Gary,

These are aluminum. The idea is that this adapter and the big sprocket are aluminum, to save weight, and then the 16T cog that is sandwiched between these two is hardened steel, as it is attached to the hub.

Perfect! 8)

BTW it looks like the guy that is building the adapters would be good resource if you need any mounts fabricated.

50 sounds like a lot to me if the only application is right hand drive with Nexus Hubs. How many drives has Matt sold and how many of those are being used with right hand drive with a Nexus Hub?

Although you can certainly use these with Matt's hub, the intent really was to come up with a much simpler direct-drive setup. Also, thee's a ton of single-speed cruiser-type bikes out there that use the same sort of three-splined cog, held on with a steel circlip. We have 5 or 6 of these beach cruisers down at our condo in SD. I'm thinking a six-wire 12-turn 3210, with one of Richard's new delta-wye switching widgets, would make a great two-speed commuter bike setup. Anyway, 50 seems like a good starting number, as it gets the per unit cost as low as possible. If I end up with a bunch of unused ones, I'll start a new pile, next to the 13" stack of unused prototype BMS boards.

-- Gary

Single speed bikes hadn't occurred to me, good idea.

I mentioned the number of Matt's drive sales and right hand drive builds as a vague idea of the potential market size, not as a requirement for use.

I really like the simplicity of your direct build concept and implementation. One of the best builds on the forum IMO.

OTOH I think another stage of reduction (closer to cadence) might be better for riders that want to pedal. A belt first stage setup might also be a little quieter and a little stealthier (smaller rear sprocket).

The second purpose is to put a second freewheel (the hub has one...) on there for pedal chain, so that the motor won't drive the pedals, or the chain going to the pedals...

A really nice feature and an excellent idea!

 

[grwsaltspring]

Gary,

I'm by no means qualified to question your build, but any concerns about corrosion (galvanic action perhaps) between the steel and aluminum cogs?

Greg

 

[gwhy!]

But it dont have to go on a nexus hub it will allow two indepent freewheels on the rear of the bike also which is a very good thing in my book anyway, thats my understanding of the adapter if im wrong can someone please let me know ..

Also I would like to ask will this adaptor be screwed to a wheel so its fixed and then put a freewheel onto the adaptor or dosnt it have a standard freewheel thread on the inside now that would be cool.

The purpose of this adapter is two-fold. First, it will allow either a multi or single-speed hub, with a three-splined removable cog, to have now two chains to the rear, one for the motor and one for the pedals. The second purpose is to put a second freewheel (the hub has one...) on there for pedal chain, so that the motor won't drive the pedals, or the chain going to the pedals. this eliminates the need for replacing the front crankset with one that has an embedded freewheel. The advantage of having the FW in the back is that with it in the crank, the chain will still move with the motor, but the pedals won't.

The way it works is pretty much the same way something like an IPS freewheeling crank works, which simply embeds a 16T BMX freewheel in the crankset. The four holes in the adapter, and the holes on the big sprocket, line up perfectly with a 16T sprocket. So, the 16T Nexus sprocket is "sandwiched" between the big #35 sprocket and the adapter. Then, you simply screw on a BMX freewheel (they come from 16t to 22t...), onto the adapter. I'll post some pics of this assembly, on this bike, a little later today.

-- Gary

Thanks Gary for the info this is exactly what i thought ( minus the standard freewheel thread on the inside of the adaptor ) This is a really big step forward ( i think ) 1 less moving chain is a good thing. It should be also quite easy to make it fixed to the rear wheel as with now the speed increases see on these rc setups really would make it viable to have regen or at least some motor braking....

 

[methods]

Having ridden a cyclone at 88V and over 50mph - one less moving chain is a BIG step forward.
Having the meat grinder (er... chain wheel) spinning at ungodly speeds inches from your ankles is not desirable...
Riding off-road, hitting jumps, getting squirly - these things make that spinning chain ring by your ankles hazardous and unacceptable.

A spinning chain is one more thing to derail as well.

mmm..... quieter makes me happy
Less drag, cheaper, less work.

Sounds like getting your cake and eating it too. (or at least nibbling)


I was really put off with chain drive setups after my Cyclone debacle but I am seeing that the things which sucked are being resolved by others.
I look forward to my 1MW Astro bike.

Good job!

-methods

 

[GGoodrum]

I finally got the time to put this together with the new adapter. Here's a couple of iPhone shots of the assembly:

View attachment FW Adapters-04.jpg

View attachment FW Adapters-03.jpg




I found there is a slight difference between the Nexus and S-A 3-speed hubs in how far out the hub end extends, past the circlip. It is a bit wider on the SRF-3, which meant I ended up with a slight clearance problem on this bike. I ended up having to Dremel off the four "tabs" that stick out on the freewheel. These are normally used to remove the freewheel. If I ever end up needing to replace this $20 Shimano FW and I can't get this one off, I'll just use another adapter.

Anyway, I got the whole assembly installed last night, and put on the chains. I've now also added a tensioner for the #35 motor chain as well. I'll hopefully get this all finshed this afternoon, and do some more test runs. We have a fair number of hills around here, which should be interesting.

-- Gary

 

[methods]

I am right behind you Gary

Pulled out the Ghetto Booster MKII and removed all the Cyclone equipment in anticipation of the Astro build.

It is nice to finally see pictures of this. Makes a lot more sense now... That adapter looks very useful.

I am making a spreadsheet of all the parts you are using, technical specs, notes, where to buy them, cost, etc.
I plan to integrate this info into the gear ratio spreadsheet for some serious bathroom reading material

I found out yesterday that a very talented guy at my work is doing side jobs at home. He is one of those geniuses that can just look at a part and model it in a few minutes.
He has a home machine shop and I think he will be able to help us model and prototype. He is not the "all talk" type - he is the "I am already done" type so this could work well for everyone.

So how are you feeling about your decision to go with #35?

I am going to try some of the #25 pieces from Electric Scooter Parts.
They will bolt right onto that adapter you made. Largest rear is 90T
They have a few front gears that will bolt onto a 3/8" for cheap.


-methods

 

[GGoodrum]

So how are you feeling about your decision to go with #35?

I am going to try some of the #25 pieces from Electric Scooter Parts.
They will bolt right onto that adapter you made. Largest rear is 90T
They have a few front gears that will bolt onto a 3/8" for cheap.

I'm very happy with the #35 chain, on a setup with this much torque. Even though the pitch is smaller (3/8" vs 1/2"...), the links are wider and so are the sprockets. Very meaty! Take a look above at how wide the big sprocket is, compared to regular bike chain, even the 1/8" BMX/trials stuff.

I've used the #25 chain, on the 1st stage of my other setup, but I had problems with keeping it tensioned properly. Compared to the #35 stuff, it is downright puny. Anyway, you can get #35 motor sprockets with a 3/8" bore and two setscrews from McMaster.com. They come in sizes from 9t-13t, although I wouldn't go any smaller than 11T, which is what I'm using. For the big sprocket, I got mine from GoKartGalaxy. Scroll to the bottom of the page, to part number P5231. The last one lets you select from 83t-94t. I'm using the 94t version. It already has a 2-1/8" opening, which fits over the hub end, and four holes that match up with the adapter's holes. I then used a 16T Nexus "dished" cog, which I got from UtahTrikes.com, which gets sandwiched in between the adapter and the big sprocket.

The other option is #219 chain, which is also used on racing go karts. This is what D is using between Matt's drive and his front crank. This size is a bit smaller pitch (.308" vs .375"...), but every bit as robust as the #35 chain. There's several sources for big sprockets for these, also aluminum, but the problem is I could not find motor sprockets in this pitch that didn't have tapered bores, and/'or keyways, much less something with a 3/8" bore. I actually ordered and received some big sprockets and matching #219 chain, but I never solved the motor sprocket issue, so I switched over to #35 chain. Either way, I'm definitely glad I went this route. Originally, it was just to get a large enough ratio to make the direct-drive work, but I think the heavy-duty nature of this size is a very big plus, especially given your demonstrated tendency to break things. :lol: For your buddy, Luke, I think only tank tracks will survive.

-- Gary