E+ powered by A123 20 Ah pack UPDATE

Miro if I lived closer I would gladly volunteer my bike for your experiment!

I see why you would only want an aux battery -- it would def. let you ride super light and fast! Probably one of the fastest production ebikes out there with just a LIPO and the 1000W engine. (Outside of the crazy 10K stealths etc).

If people used to ride using only the AUX battery without the front hub as stated above -- how did they accomplish that? Was it just a signal that went to the E+ computer telling it not to worry about the nimh front hub? :) haha or whatever it would tell it. either way, it seems like what you are trying to accomplish is def. doable. And if you get the aux pack working, I will be the first in line when you start producing them!
 
Paraller or not paraller with A123 you are pushing 8kg/!!!!!/
of high RI cells 30 of them in front wheel which usable capacity is only maybe 6Ah
Compare it with 7.5kg A123 heck even 17Ah worth
This give you idea what this fight is all about
 
i guess it did not make sense.

if the lithium is at a higher voltage then the diode would isolate the nimh pack and the motor would use power from the lithium, but as the lithium was depleted in voltage then the nimh could push current out through the diode to accompany the current from the declining lithium pack.

if the lithium is a 16S lifepo4 it would be right at 57V and the fully charged nimh would be around 37V so the diode would have to be capable of withstanding about 20V of reverse bias minimum, or breakdown voltage>20-25V. assume only about 12A from the nimh and you know what diode to buy. it only has to be an axial diode too unless the heat is a problem for the ceramic package. the diode could even be out in the air flow as the lithium lead connected to the nimh lead.

hope somebody follows this. and need to verify the 57V HVC, which could change the idea also. i would go with 60V breakdown though, not that much more heat at this ampacity. price could only be like 2 cents difference, $.50 maybe total for the diode?

all jmho
 
miro13car said:
Ambrose

I simply disconnected power wire on the motor side and pluged A123 pack
To avoid spark from rail capacitors I used precharge resistor

This is GREAT work guys, I had the E+lipo aux pack; however I gave it up due to the recall. I tried to attach a 36v lipo battery to the back port(B) or the front port (A) however the large spark really scared me, and I backed off. What and where can I get this " precharge resistor" mirocar?

also, when I did have the Lipo aux pack I would simply hold down the power button and it would switch to the back pack (B), a small letter B would show on my controller. I often switched between packs with a push of a button.
This ten minute shut off sounds like a huge drag... for now how do I prevent that crazy spark when I plug in my aux experimental battery? I really want to get this going as it would increase our range to 50 miles.
help, thanks
:)
Click to expand...
 
I get what you're saying dnmun,

However, the maximum voltage that an E+/TF bike can handle is around 46V before the HVC circuitry in the motor/controller cuts off power. So the voltage to the motor has to be lower than 46V. So if the packs are similar in voltage, then the high speed schottky diode would only need to be a relatively low reverse bias/breakdown voltage in order to do it's job, correct?

Ambrose

dnmun said:
i guess it did not make sense.

if the lithium is at a higher voltage then the diode would isolate the nimh pack and the motor would use power from the lithium, but as the lithium was depleted in voltage then the nimh could push current out through the diode to accompany the current from the declining lithium pack.

if the lithium is a 16S lifepo4 it would be right at 57V and the fully charged nimh would be around 37V so the diode would have to be capable of withstanding about 20V of reverse bias minimum, or breakdown voltage>20-25V. assume only about 12A from the nimh and you know what diode to buy. it only has to be an axial diode too unless the heat is a problem for the ceramic package. the diode could even be out in the air flow as the lithium lead connected to the nimh lead.

hope somebody follows this. and need to verify the 57V HVC, which could change the idea also. i would go with 60V breakdown though, not that much more heat at this ampacity. price could only be like 2 cents difference, $.50 maybe total for the diode?

all jmho
Click to expand...
 
Mr. Davies -- did you make this battery yourself or did you buy it? Did you get the Delphi connectors in order to mount it?

(I am behind all the technical talk with Voltages etc -- still trying ot learn) -- but I am trying to figure out just how hard /easy all of this is to do if I get an aux lipo pack.
 
kaysellters said:
Mr. Davies -- did you make this battery yourself or did you buy it? Did you get the Delphi connectors in order to mount it?

(I am behind all the technical talk with Voltages etc -- still trying ot learn) -- but I am trying to figure out just how hard /easy all of this is to do if I get an aux lipo pack.
Click to expand...


Im trying to figure all this out too.. I put a 10s lipo hobby king battery on the system , but the spark held me back when I connected it, so I didn't continue to get it to work. Ive been looking and looking for that Delphi connector but can't find it.
 
the spark is the current surge as the input capacitors charge up. you can use a precharge resistor, but if you hook up the lifepo4 in parallel, then you don't get the spark since the A battery in the front hub has already charged them up. but you have to use the diode to combine them. seems pretty straightforward and should solve your 10 minute problem and save your data too.
 
Ok so one, I've been looking online. Does anyone have a specific name for the kind of Delphi connectors E+ uses? These should be available somewhere --

So then build a battery, wire the battery wires into the Delphi battery and cross your fingers? I just somehow am having trouble believing it can be this easy when E+ spent so much damn time trying to come up with an AUX LiPo solution.

I am happy that its working for Miro and DMun- this is already good news. I am starting to look.

Like Davis, I'd like to know about these connectors -- anybody have any good ideas for where to find them?
 
kayselter,
first thanks for enthiusiastic support
Delphi connectors can be found in automotive parts stores like Parts Source or others,
I saw them there myself but they come in all kind of sizes. One common future of Delpi connector is triple rubber seal so it is easy to see them.
 
in exchange
if anybody come accross E+ front hub on wheel for sale
please, let me know
I think I would need it for experiments.
 
It took me a long time to figure out what connectors E+ uses. They are from the Delphi Metri-Pack 480 series. I source mine from Waytek Wire. The only thing is that you need to buy the special Delphi crimping tool to properly install the connectors. It's pricey, but it makes the installation oh so easy. Mystery solved!
 
Here's what a recent order of male and female Delphi Metri-Pack 480 series connectors from Waytek looked like. There's a minimum order requirement of 10 units.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
1 10.00 10.00 0.00 38121
   METRI-PACK 480 CONNECTOR 2-WAY
   FEMALE DELPHI # 12052613 EA 0.8606 8.60
2 10.00 10.00 0.00 38120
   METRI-PACK 480 CONNECTOR 2-WAY
   MALE DELPHI # 12065863 EA 1.2100 12.10
3 100.00 100.00 0.00 39013
   METRI-PACK 480 CABLE SEAL
   12048442 CHANGED TO 15324989 EA 0.0739 7.39
4 25.00 25.00 0.00 32092
   METRI-PACK 480 MALE 12 GA
   12065197 LOOSE PIECE TERMINAL EA 0.1599 3.99
5 50.00 50.00 0.00 38124
   METRI-PACK 480 TPA 2 WAY
   DELPHI # 12059897 EA 0.1493 7.46
6 25.00 25.00 0.00 32093
   METRI-PACK 480 FEMALE 12-10GA
   12052139 LOOSE PIECE TERMINAL EA 0.2216 5.54

_______________________________________________________________________

It comes out to about $45. 
 
Are you sure you cannot find anything in auto parts retail?
For connecting non-Eplus battery you need only matching female connector,no pair
 
Ok so basically a pack like this would do the trick: http://whiteproducts.com/sealed480.shtml

The crimp tool -- do you mean the one they sell for $30 -- approx - I think thats reasonable.

So - is there a build process involved with the battery as well or does it come ready to plug into the delphi connectors and then into the bike.

For this upgrade, I guess i will need a new balancing lipo charger that can handle a 20AH pack...
 
Did you mean charger for LiPolymer?
I don't want to sound negative but EMS pack was LiPolymer and you know what happened?
 
Can I use this pack ? http://www.a123systems.com/prismatic-cell-amp20.htm

I just meant lithium -- isnt that what you are using? I had no specific to which battery -- i am just trying to figure out what I would need ot buy to make all of this happen.
 
I've been away for a year and not done much riding of my E+. I just stumbled upon the Gov't site showing the LiPo recall and came back here to learn more. I used my Lipo "B" battery all the time before I stopped riding for a while and never saw even warm temps during rides nor charging. I charged it up yesterday and went for a ride before finding out about the problem. Is there any specific info on the unit that caught fire?

To better understand your aux battery connection to the E+ controller...Would I simply unplug the front hub, 3-wire connector and determine which of the 3 wires are normal + & - and hook those to the aux pack + & -? What is the purpose of the 3rd wire?
 
Kayselter
cellman is highly regarded here
He sells A123 cell packs
Yes I was testing Eplus powered by 36V 12S 20Ah pack
It is LiFePo chemistry
By LiPo they mean LiPolymer
 
BVH said:
Is there any specific info on the unit that caught fire?
Click to expand...

There's very little information except one person reporting that an E+ dealer's store suffered significant damage from an E+ battery that caught fire. I have not been able to corroborate that story and the person who relayed that information wouldn't divulge the name of the dealer nor the circumstances. A Google search for any bike dealers in Florida suffering a fire is also fruitless.

The details are here:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/tidalforce/6nF70m0sgAE
 
BVH
Forget about front
I connected A123 pack to rear power connector after dosconnecting
motor, you of course connecting your battery on the motor side to małe connector
 
BVH:

From E+ directly, they said that there were a "number" - unspecified - of cases where the battery malfunctioned. I believe the fire case was the only one -- but someone else writing about the E+ has said that it happened to them as well. i think its the kind of thing where you may not experience any issues -- or you could have a major issue.

I know there are a number of people here who have used them and returned with recall but who reported no issues. Miro is one of those as well.

----

Miro,

what happens if you connect A123 pack to engine and computer without front hub? Do you have no response? Did you ever take apart the E+ aux lipo pack? Was there a controller or computer chip inside the aux pack?
 
OK, I admit I'm a bit "slow" on understanding what is being explained so how about this. Using the labeled switch and connectors in the pics, can you step-by-step describe the process of getting the "B"/back rack battery recognized in the system so that it functions?


Also, does the fuel gauge for the "B" battery function normally with the aftermarket battery?


Something like:

Turn on S1 and wait until display stabilizes
Unplug connector C2
Plug "B" battery into C4

ES1copy.jpg


C1C2copy.jpg


C3C4copy.jpg


C5C6copy.jpg
 
A123 battery is not factory battery, it is is DIY.
It does not communicate with rest of the Eplus system like factory hub battery or recallled LiPolymer battery.
Normally with hub battery when you press power up button computer in the console goes through initialization hand shaking with components of the bike like battery electronics, motor electronics, etc. checking system. When initialization OK battery electronics put out 36V to the motor.
But you can disconnect this factory 36V by unplugging power cable at the front or rear going to the motor and connect your own 36V of any kind. Eplus will not detect it thinking that is still connected to hub battery.
So procedure is
go to the rear of bike, disconnect power connector, connect your own 36V and next power up Eplus normally.
Display provide only partal informations, no power to the motor displayed , because hub batt electronics does not monitor your non-Eplus battery and such battery has no communication with rest of the system.
. Every other functions are on display just like with hub battery.
I cannot speak about LiPo factory battery, I don't have one but obvious to me is that it was communicating with rest of Eplus system through RS485 port just like other components of Eplus.
 
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