E+ powered by A123 20 Ah pack UPDATE

so the trick will be to discover what is sent through 485 port to authenticate the nimh status?

if you can create that signal without the DSP board being present then the controller will use the A123 as the main power and even try to regen?

that is what i hear you saying. is this something that paul at E+ would help with if you contacted him?

maybe he can get you in touch with the guys who designed that connection so you can use that insider knowledge to spoof the controller. you know they posted up his email address on the tidal force board i assume. otherwise there is nobody left to ask there.
 
It is Rick who still provide E+ service.
I am sure he is not going to discuss any technical details about E+ or send me any documents, no way.
If he has supply of those green NMH cells modules so you know what he is interested in.
And I don't blame Rick
He had been so generous in warranty replacements that now it is time for him to start charging and I don't blame him
We all interested know who was lead engineer on E+ it is not a secret.
I exchanged couple of emails withhim but he refused to discuss E+.
Instead he tried to sell me Falco system.
 
dnmun, Ambrosio and others,
I was on vacation
Yes,of course there is software solution to powering E+ on third party battery. Recalled EMS LiPolymer battery had BMS electronics which communicated with master controller in console so it is not just the matter of changing codes.
My A123 battery will use 2 boards disconnected from hub NMH and connected to A123 pack with communication cable connected to master controller in console.
Those boards are DSP board and power board.
My conclusion is that any 36V nominal battery can be used to power E+ with absolut max.45V terminal voltage and ability to tap 6.5V - 7.5V from such battery for connection to two sense boards, so 2 times 6.5- 7.5V for 2 sense boards. That is all what's needed.
All functions on display should work, however Columb discharge count will be different for sure which will result with false SOC reading on E+ display which I do not care - I will use CA for Ahours count.
 
Miro13car,

Welcome back. I got my A123 cells and will be starting my pack build. I look forward to using it with my X powered S-750!

Ambrose
 
I don't remember. S-750.
Does not mean 750W version of TF?
There are:
500W Canadian version
750W USA version
1000W USA version
Is it right?
 
Yes, there's a model (introduced after the m-750 and the iO) called the S-750 which is a hard tail mountain bike.

I've upgraded mine to the X version motor. It looks the same, of course

https://picasaweb.google.com/109213416992599816126/MyTidalforceBikes#5750610969504376274
MyTidalforceBikes
 
Ambrose,
Tell me about X upgrade. I have been planning on doing it to my my 500W TF for years.
How much was it , at LEVT of course, right?
What difference do you feel?
I mean what is max. speed on flat, no wind with 150-170lb rider and on what tires?
 
I was lucky in that I bought the red S-750 from Jason Seybold who worked for EMS when he was selling excess inventory of Tidalforce items. When I picked up the bike from him, he mentioned that he had two Tidalforce hub batteries and a tf motor that he wanted to sell also, as is. He didn't know if they worked or not and what type the motor was. I bought it on the chance that the batteries were good and the hope that the motor was an X version. The batteries are both good and the motor was the X version!

The biggest difference between the standard 750w version and the 1000w version is primarily speed. For me, there isn't a huge difference in torque. In standard mode, the top speed is 19.5mph and in turbo mode, it's higher at around 27 or 28mph. I did notice a huge amount of voltage sag whenever I went WOT on the Tidalforce throttle with the stock NiMH front hub battery. This is what is driving me to upgrade to the A123 20Ah pack. The low sag and high current of these batteries should be wonderful with the Tidalforce X motor. I hope to get much higher top speed with the A123 packs since the Tidalforce system is a current based controller and so the higher voltage (low sag) of the A123 should allow higher speeds.

I'll let you know when I make the transition!

Ambrose
 
As marketed, the 750 in M-750/S-750 was not representative of the wattage, although it is certainly possible that was the original intent. The 750w and lower wattage "street-legal" models were sold as IO Cruiser, IO Step-Through, S-750, and M-750. The 1000w "offroad" models were sold as IOx cruiser, IOx Step-Through, S-750x, and M-750x. The only difference between the bikes was 'x' badging, different firmware on the same motor, and a second fuse on the front wheel. I forget if the Delphi connectors replaced Anderson's on all late model bikes, or just the x models. They also changed to a different Alex rim and cheap-ass low resistance tube/tire combo, dont remember if that was just x or all later models.

The x-bikes also had the benefit of continuous throttle. To comply with federal regs, the "street-legal" models disabled the throttle and started regen when you exceeded 19.5 mph. Annoyingly you had to release the throttle and pause before it would recognize throttle input again. It was frustrating to ride down one hill then start up the next hill, and suddenly realize you were only traveling on momentum because the bike stopped pushing halfway down. By the time you re-enable the throttle the bike would be almost stopped, and you wouldn't make it up the hill.

-JD
 
Ambrose,
thank you
can you confirm that on X version in NORMAL mode there is still 20mph spped limiter?
By other words on X in NORMAL mode regen will kick in when you approach 20mph, right?
Also do you know what was the cost of upgrade at that time?
 
miro13car said:
Ambrose,
thank you
can you confirm that on X version in NORMAL mode there is still 20mph spped limiter?
By other words on X in NORMAL mode regen will kick in when you approach 20mph, right?
Also do you know what was the cost of upgrade at that time?
Click to expand...

Hi Miro,

Yes, the top speed in NORMAL mode on the TFX motor is 20 mph. Yes, the regen kicks in as you reach 20mph. I believe it's actually 19.5mph. This is much higher than the non-X version of the motor which limits you to 12.5mph in NORMAL mode. I believe inn Turbo mode on an X motor, regen doesn't kick in unless you apply the brakes.

The top speed of the X motor is very high if it isn't drawing much current. The motor will not push past the current limiting controller. This translates to around 27mph in TURBO mode when being ridden and 19.5 in NORMAL mode on an X motor.

To show you the difference, I made two videos. One in Normal mode and one in Turbo mode of the X motor before it was laced into a wheel.

This is the first video of the X version motor in NORMAL mode.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz8ICoD1tPU
[youtube]dz8ICoD1tPU[/youtube]

This is the second video of the X version motor in TURBO mode. There's quite a difference!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQYhK8yugDc
[youtube]aQYhK8yugDc[/youtube]

I'm hoping that with the new A123 pack that I'm building for my TF bike that the voltage will stay high and not sag very much which should translate into higher speeds.

Hope this helps. As for the upgrade cost, I believe it was around $200-250 if you were buying the bike new and wanted the higher powered X motor from the factory. If you want it now, you would have to send your NORMAL motor to LEVT Idaho and in a few months, they will do the upgrade and check out your motor for any other issues that it may have for $250 USD. You would have to pay for any extras and shipping, of course.

Ambrose
 
Thank you Ambrose.
Excellent tutorial on Tidal Force also.
But we have to be careful here.
We cannot call rotations per minute speed, so what you measured is no load rpm.
Of course rpm translate to speed.
But max land speed of X version in TURBO depends greatly on many factors as you can imagine: tires, weight of rider, aerodinamics, bearings lubrication etc. etc.

For now my choice of ride is E+ at least in the summer. In winter NMH gets weak dramatically so I ride TF on Lithium.
Everebody know that I am great supporter of E+.
If you want me to compare TF and Eplus...
TF is adorable for incredible smoothness which cannot be matched by any other ebike. that's includes super smooth regen kick in.
E+ for other hand is not that smooth , jerks on regen engagement and on throttle engagement.
on other hand Eplus motor laced into comparable rim is lighter by 6kg and also smaller than TF.
I estimate TF would use at the min 15% more Wattshours for the same km ridden in comparable conditions.
and it is real adventage here. No doubt.
There are other advantages like super responsive and linear E+ throttle , pleasure to operate, TF throttle is not so.
 
you guys may be able to do a hack on the speedo to get the TF to higher speeds. if there is a signal from the spoke sensor or from the hub, maybe you could put a timer on that signal line so it would only see half the pulses to the controller.

not sure how to do that, maybe a 555 timer along with an op amp to handle the signals.
 
It's not based on the speedo. The controller has a speed sensor and limits the current to the motor to lower the speed. I'm pretty sure your speedo hack idea wouldn't fly. If only there was someone out there who had the software and the connector to hack the Tidalforce controller!
 
When and if any of the E+ riders here had the E+ Lithium "B" battery, did you occasionally get an ERR1 (or maybe it's ERR2, can't remember right now) when switching from A to B? I seem to get it maybe 1 out of 10 or 15 switches. Only way to get rid of it is to remove controller and plug it in down at the Ft hub comm connector to force a reset. (Learned this from my dealer when he was still in business) I don't think it's something I'm doing as I pretty much do the same thing every time. Sometimes, when I switch, and bring up the PWR display sitting still, no throttle, it will be displaying 40, 60 or some other Wattage figure.

I'm still using my E+ Litho but charge it outside. It's never been more than luke-warm charging or running. Hope I'm not tempting fate.
 
dnmun said:
you guys may be able to do a hack on the speedo to get the TF to higher speeds.
Click to expand...

TF is built to NASA standards, not China standards, so removing the speed limit on non-X bikes isn't trivial. Speed is determined via an optical sensor tracking a black/white pie (like someone (burtie?) did with outrunners), change that pie and its like moving your hall sensors to random spots. Over the years, a number of very bright people have tried physical hacks to deregulate speed and failed, firmware is the way to go. Jeff was getting close to hacking the firmware, so LEVT started offering the 'X' upgrade for $250, and currently that is the cheapest, simplest, most elegant way to get all possible speed from your wheel.

Once you have an unregulated X wheel, speed limitation comes from backEMF, so top speed is voltage dependant. The components installed are only good up to 45v-48v (I've seen a range of claims, only done 45v myself). To achieve higher speeds on an X wheel, Jeff posted a thread on the TF forum, detailing the hacks he went through (fix one thing and see what burns up next) to run it at higher voltages, where it was reportedly a screamer by 2008/2009 standards.

-JD
 
I could use a little help guys :)
I bought 2 Tidal Force M-750 bikes about 9 months ago only to find out now that the company went out of business. So I'm stuck trying to figure out what to do with the batteries when they finally die. You guys seem pretty knowledgeable on the subject as far as battery rebuilds go. So I was hoping to ask a few questions of you that didn't seem to be addressed in your thread.
1) First of all is it possible to just replace the dead cells in the front battery hub without having to go thru a lot of trouble?? I'm afraid I'm electronically challenged and if it gets too complicated I might fry the system.
2) If I replace the hub batteries with these A123 batteries mentioned in your thread will the controller still work like it should?? And can I still use the battery charger that came with the battery to recharge?? Also what A123 battery should I buy??
3) Also the front hub has 2 connections one pretty small and a larger one.
Delphi Was mentioned in your thread. So if these are Delphi connectors could you please tell me what I need to order should I get brave enough to build my own battery from scratch.
Any help would be much appreciated :)
 
Hiwayman said:
I could use a little help guys :)

1) First of all is it possible to just replace the dead cells in the front battery hub without having to go thru a lot of trouble?? I'm afraid I'm electronically challenged and if it gets too complicated I might fry the system.

2) If I replace the hub batteries with these A123 batteries mentioned in your thread will the controller still work like it should?? And can I still use the battery charger that came with the battery to recharge?? Also what A123 battery should I buy??

3) Also the front hub has 2 connections one pretty small and a larger one.
Delphi Was mentioned in your thread. So if these are Delphi connectors could you please tell me what I need to order should I get brave enough to build my own battery from scratch.
Any help would be much appreciated :)
Click to expand...

Hi, Hiwayman,

First, welcome to the ES forum.

Second, I think it would be best for you to start a new thread on your efforts to revive your TF bikes.

Third, having just said that, here are a couple of answers to your questions.

for 1) Yes, it's possible, but it's not practical. It requires some specialized equipment and a good deal of electronics experience.

2) If you were to replace your front hub battery with the A123 20Ah prismatic pack, then yes, your TF would work like it should except that you would be using a so called "B" or auxiliary battery. It is not possible to use your existing charger since it requires some communication with the front hub's BMS in order to work properly.

3) You may or may not need the Delphi connectors since Tidalforce bikes came with Anderson Powerpoles as well as Delphi connectors. Does your bike use click-lock water resistant connectors for the red and black power connectors or is it rectangular mini Lego-like friction fit connectors that don't look very water tight?

Lastly, perhaps it's best if you read my blog post on the question of replacing your front hub with a 3rd party battery!

http://ebikerider.blogspot.com/2012/03/how-to-use-external-battery-pack-with.html

Hope this helps!

Ambrose
 
Actually I have the E+ bikes that has the controller shown in the pictures on page 4 here by BVH. Sorry if I misrepresented by bikes. I did look at your link Ambrose and my settup looks different. Say do you guys know of any company now that rebuilds these batteries. I'm thinking I'm getting WAY over my head here :)
Hiwayman
 
Hiwayman,
on page 4 of this thread?
So you own E+ bicycles not Tidal Force.
Maybe E+ bikes on Tidal Force Paratrooper frame, Electric Motion System offered such ebikes but they are still E+ bikes.
If you ask question if you could still use original E+ charger after converting to A123...- what does it tell me??
Original charger is for NMH cells, A123 is LiFePo.
As starter of this thread ...
I cannot even imagine person without solid electronic/electrical knowledge and good with electrician tools to even open front hub.My pictures speak for themselves.
Chances of causing shorts inside hub are real.
This conversion is for CAREFUL ,electronics knowledgeable person .
I proofed in this thread that E+ can be run on Lithium Iron Phosphate 12S cells, but again you must know what are you doing.
What holding my project down is that I cannot find long enough axle for BB on my Biria. /please, suggest something, I posted seperate thread about help/
Rick , former emploee of Electric Motion System still offer service for Eplus bicycles
here is tel. number: second post from the top:
.http://visforvoltage.org/forum/12378-e-electric-bike-master-controller-re-set
 
BVH,
good that you still use your EMS LiPOlymer battery.
I never owned one but I read E+ owner by the name Bill Von had one and experienced lots of problems when he switched From A to B and back.
 
miro13car said:
...............
I never owned one but I read E+ owner by the name Bill Von had one and experienced lots of problems when he switched From A to B and back.
Click to expand...

Just a technicality but I cannot switch back and forth between A & B. I'm limited to the program of: Push and hold power button to power up on "A". Push and hold power button for about 5 seconds to go to "B". Push and hold power button for about 5 seconds to turn off. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Cannot toggle btw A & B
 
Miro, I was reading the post of resetting the E+ controller on the "E is for......" forum you linked to above. I did not see anyone mention the reset procedure I use.

Unplug the controller cables (2) and remove controller.
Disconnect the comm connector at the front hub battery.
Plug the hub end of that comm cable into the controller - it will only go in one port)
Turn on the controller and let it boot.
Turn off the controller and re-install everything.
This works every time for me.

You might post this for garn1081 over there.
 
I registered and made the post.

Has any other owner ever been told of this reset process?
 
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