E+ powered by A123 20 Ah pack UPDATE

[miro13car]

So basically you suggest to plug RS485 comm cable from hub battery BMS straight into display/controller
Yes display is a master controller
Would this cause to reset BMS microcomtroller?
You said that it works on your one every time
What problem do you have "every time" ?

 

[BVH]

This is the 3rd controller since the bike was purchased. Since new, I have had somewhat frequent ERR1 and ERR2's, most encountered when switching from battery A to battery B. Sometimes the err's occur for no reason that I can detect. My dealer told me a long time ago that E+ had told him to use this reset procedure when the ERR's occurred. Electrically, I don't know what is taking place when I do the reset procedure, all I know is that it gets rid of the ERR's every time.

Miro said..."So basically you suggest to plug RS485 comm cable from hub battery BMS straight into display/controller?" YES, exactly.

To add, If I remember correctly, when the display is plugged into the hub comm cable and is turned on, it will boot and then settle with a ERR code. Not to worry, turn it off and re-install in the system and the original ERR's are gone and the system works normal.

On occasion, when I switch from battery A to battery B and bring up the PWR display, it will show from 25 to 250 watts being used when I am not moving or using any throttle. The bike will operate normally but it is obvious the Watts being displayed are higher than what is actually being used. This is another one of the occasions when I do the reset and all is well afterwards.

 

[miro13car]

BVH,
You are talking about operation of E+ with EMS LiPolymer, that is completely different story , I was wondering , because very few owners have any problems with turning on hub NMH battery. E+ software had few bugs if it comes to working with EMS LIpolymer. You are not only one who had that problems.
EMS LiPolymer was recalled by EMS so technically like recall bulletin says dangerous to use.
EMS LiPoly is now history.
Our E+ ses in our hands should serve us for very long time.
My E+ is rock solid and pleasure to ride.
I am building A123 20Ah pack for my conversion.
Radiculous charging times for NMH on average 5 hours limit use of every E+ .
I will use 15A 36V charger for my A123 pack.
Project is coming along slowely but surely.

 

[BVH]

I had ERR's before buying and using the LiPoly - when just using the front hub battery. Just had more of them after integrating it into the system.

 

[miro13car]

That is weird
I am in contact with some owners and read very extensively about Eplus but never heard/read that any owner would have this on hub only
EDIT
Aparently early , very early E+ bikes had this problem solved since then long time ago.

 

[BVH]

Miro, anything new to report?

 

[miro13car]

So my project is in final stage.
A123 20Ah battery is complete, needs only sanding, priming, painting, etc. and is mounted on my BIRIA bike low over the frame between cranks.
I have ridden close to 50km on converted Eplus system with basically no problems.
Original factory BMS boards are incorporated into my A123 pack.
A123 pack discharges through factory BMS and is turned on/off by factory BMS MOSFETs rated 55V 86A , well overrated for the job.
MOSFETs are turned on by pressing power button on console/controller after it makes "hand shake" with motor controller over RS485 comm. and other connections checks. Voltage is voltage and systen doesn't care if it comes from NMH or A123.
During discharging BMS DSP board counts discharge , registers it in PIC chip which decide what bars display on SOC display.
So for discharging there is no change to factory functioning.
A123 is charged completely outside facory BMS , so facory charge MOSFETs are not used at all.
On my 13kms round trips to work A123 performs as you might guess much better than NMH.

Voltage sags of 30cell NMH string /for 36V/ in front hub do not directly affect performance.
Eplus is much more refined that that. There is not just common LVC function like in cheap BMSs.
As it appears BMS senses voltage sags and sends information to motor controller to reduce power GRADUALLY to extend life of NMH cells.
Anyway bike easly reach 45km/h even in subzero temperatures of minus 10C, imagine NMH in such temperatures?
Voltage never sags below 38V and current at power level 8 never goes above 30A at 42-43km/h.
Notice that front EMPTY E+ wheel has higher rolling resistance than quality bicycle hub.
Here are the pictures.

 

[ambroseliao]

Miro,

Great work! That looks like a nice setup! You don't show any pictures of the A123 pack! Is it in the box by the crank?

Can you still pedal? Do you shoes touch the boxes?

Since the front hub is now empty, why don't you replace it with a regular front wheel with a disc brake?

Ambrose
(I still haven't even tested my A123 cells yet or started assembling my packs with the OSN kits yet.)

 

[miro13car]

Ambrose,
thank you for comment.
Yes, box between cranks is an A123 battery pack. 6cells on one side, 6 cells on other side.
All box is made from very thick 9mm /3/8 inch/ ABS sheet. Side covers are 3mm aluminium plates bolted to ABS boxes by stainless screws.
Everthing is built rust - proof and rain - proof with wires - CA shunt, motor power, comm to motor contr. and charging wires entering pack from down up with drip loops everwhere.
All power connectors are like on Eplus only DELPHI weather pack - the best/$$$ of course/.
Pedalling as you can see is not affected at all, I never touch the pack with boots of course, cranks sheeld battery box from impacts.
I do not know even that the pack is down there when I pedal very fast.
Cranks spacing was increased just by 30mm, 15mm on each side which not affect pedalling at all.
Top cover not shown is aluminum plate. This plate is thermally connected to the heatsink of discharge MOSFETs so it serves as a heatsink at the same time.
I never saw more than 30Amps on my new CA, I belive CA is correct.
Yes, I will build wheel using Eplus quality DH19 ALEX rim, Chris King front hub came today. It should reduce rolling resistnce of front wheel a lot.
check out more pics.

 

[ambroseliao]

Miro,

What is that circuitry in the yellow Pelican case?

 

[miro13car]

It is charger from BMSBATTERY but modified
It put out 17A which is less than 1C for A123 cell
I found original heatsink well overrated for that power it provide
What you see are just parts of original heatsink
Such modified charger fit like a glove in that size PELICAN case
It will not overheat at 17A
I got rid of original A/V meter

 

[ambroseliao]

Great job. Did the E+ charger have that LED display?

 

[miro13car]

THANK YOU
you mean if factory Eplus NMH CHARGER has a display?

 

[ambroseliao]

Yes. Did the E+ charger have the LCD display or did you add it?

 

[miro13car]

I edied my post
charger in yellow case is from BMSBATTERY company.
Original Eplus NMH charger does have only single LEDs no display.

 

[kaysellters]

Miro! Fantastic setup. Congrats. Really impressive.

Now if only you could develop a simple workaround one step solution for E+ users. Im sure it would sell like hotcakes!

If only I had that skill for such a project!

 

[miro13car]

Electrically such conversion is simple
But on other hand all this hardware and mechanical stuff can make it daunting task
Risk is there to accidentally make short to circuit board and fry electronics during removing NMH
So yes it require some electr/mech skills
Let me figure out how to use Windows7 software to draw on pictures so I can come up with instructions
I must be able to draw lines and write over pictures but do not know how

 

[BVH]

Excellent job, Miro!! It's great that you have given us E+ owners some hope for when our front battery goes Kaput! As you say, Voltage is Voltage, Current is Current. But you did all the investigations, trials and modifications and made it work! Thank You!

 

[BVH]

Miro, not that this is specifically related to your project but I was thinking that since I have my rear Lipo and everything is functioning normally, that I might build or buy another 36V/10 AH Lipo. My idea would be to install "T" taps in the OEM battery's output cables that would allow the second battery to plug into the OEM output power cables so as to Parallel the two. I would research and install protective Diodes in each of the 2 battery's output cables ahead of the "T" tap so there would be no reverse flow. That would probably cost me a half a Volt but double my capacity. I would also charge them separately and keep them balanced. Any thoughts on how the rear Comm/BMS board might react? On first blush, I cannot see that it would know any difference with the Diodes.

 

[miro13car]

As far as I know every EMS LiPolymer batt has his own BMS which communicate with display/controller , just like NMH BMS does.
For clarity of situation I would just stop, disconnect EMS LiPolymer1 and connect EMS LiPolymer2 instead
if I were you.
But let's imagine
two LiPolymers, two BMS , two communication cables, what are yo going to do with communication cables?
two of them.
if you connect power from both EMS LiPolimers together /plus to plus, minus to minus/ but only one communication cable to Display/controller
so what is going to happen?
Display/controller will only see one LiPolymer BMS
Second BMS will not be able to send any info to controller.
Namely how are you going to monitor second EMS LiPolymer while is being discharged if you do not connected it to controller/display?
Namely how are you going to monitor discharge/voltages/ of second EMS Polymer?
DISASTER WAITING TO HAPPEN
Remember you ride on LITHUM POLYMER=DANGER.
Foolish decision of Electric Motion Systems was to design so dangerous chemistry battery for Eplus bike and sell it to the public.
It was just matter of time before disaster happened .
And it happened, namely fire in bicycle store while charging which triggered recall - very costly operation for EMS .
One thing is when electronic/electrical knowledagble hobbyst build ebike with LiPolymer and run it
another thing is to design and start selling LiPolymer to general public= big NO NO.
GREAT pity.
Eplus is a wonderful, sophisticated system , DSP based with FOC motor control, all kind of protections build in /example you cannot melt Eplus motor-impossible/.

 

[kaysellters]

Miro -

I'm having some issues with my E+. 1) My charger is taking multiple cycles to recharge the E+ front hub. 2) Occasionally, I will have a full battery collapse from 1-2 bars left to a blinking 0 bar. Otherwise, range and speed is still good, but I suspect I have dead cells in the front hub.

A few questions for you: If I were to invest in D-cells (I know this is not optimal and the advantages of LiPo are many) - but I cannot do such a complete workaround as you. Do you know the steps involved in replacing the batteries in thefront hub? Does this involve soldering every battery, or do they come in packs? Have you tried this at all?

I contacted Rick, but he wants a $1000 and I can't afford that.

Let me know your thoughts.

 

[ambroseliao]

I'll chime in on this one. The E+ NiMH battery is packaged in 6 groups of 5 cells each. The cells are tab welded to each other. This requires a special spot welding machine. The D sized cells are also matched to each other in capacity and in internal resistance.

The E+ setup is easier to replace than the similar Tidalforce setup but is still far from easy.

 

[miro13car]

Ambroselio's answer is spot on
That is correct 5 cells for group,6 groups
Tabs on cells are very nicely welded
Groops of 5 are connected in series by jumpers for the total of 30 cells
Cells are the best NMH - Golden Peak brand
Wait I want to write more about conversion

 

[miro13car]

kayselters.
I would say NMH cells replacement is a complete workaround as you call it.
If you consider to go to such lenght as replacing 30 cells so I wold say conversion to lithium would be simpler.

 

[kaysellters]

Miro,

please excuse my ignorance. "Jumpers" - being cables linked from the groups of 5 to the battery control unit? Are these cables plug and play or also must be welded?

Why do you think it is a complete workaround? I simply cannot cannot convert to lithium with my limited experience, and I don't konw anyone who would have that skill. I appreciateyour project, but it is far beyond my tools, experience or know-how. I also simply do not have the time for such a massive project.

It seems to me like the wheel would involve opening it, taking out the 5 sets of batteries, disconnecting jumpers, removing batteries (How does one do this btw? Do the tabs come up or must they be broken?) ---The batteries would be replaced by a similiar high quality battery. Then, each 5 set would be tab welded. The jumpers reconnected and the wheel reassembled.

Or am I crazy?