LiFeBatt Battery Woes

[ejonesss]

anyone know what settling means?

is it the electrolyte liquid (acid) running to the end reducing the covered surface area or the surface charge being lowered or is it a bump jarring the cells and damaging the ends?

 

[BatteryKing]

I have been in contact with LiFeBatt they have been very informative. My understanding now is the pack should be on the charger for 40 minutes after the light on the charger goes green where the charger will be in CV (constant voltage) mode slowly balancing the cells with low currents. They also told me that the pack has a micro-controller on board that actively tries to balance the cells and my particular pack has an LVC (low voltage cut-off) circuit to prevent severe under-voltage events from occurring. This combined knowledge greatly increases my confidence in being able to properly manage this pack in the future.

 

[miro13car]

how can you have it on for 40 minutes if LBatt/BMI charger turns itself off minutes after end of charge light comes on?
MC

 

[BMI]

I have been in contact with LiFeBatt they have been very informative. My understanding now is the pack should be on the charger for 40 minutes after the light on the charger goes green where the charger will be in CV (constant voltage) mode slowly balancing the cells with low currents. They also told me that the pack has a micro-controller on board that actively tries to balance the cells and my particular pack has an LVC (low voltage cut-off) circuit to prevent severe under-voltage events from occurring. This combined knowledge greatly increases my confidence in being able to properly manage this pack in the future.

So BatteryKing are you saying you have a separate module in addition to the HPS battery itself which plugs directly into the DB9 data port?
If you don't have this extra module I am afraid to give you the bad news but Lifebatt is telling you a bunch of lies regarding the LVC feature.

 

[miro13car]

I would only second Armin here.
VMS board itself does not have any LVC future for sure.
So where is it in the HPS pack?
Can only be plugged outside the pack.
How else.
From the literature I read from Taiwan factory there is no LVC inside HPS packs.
VMSses are bolted to the undeside of top cover and there is no room anywhere for VMS board which for sure would include MOSFET/FET with heatsink.
mc

 

[BatteryKing]

There is nothing external plugged into the DB9 ports. I was just regurgitating what the LiFeBatt folks told me.

It looks like the charger doesn't shut off immediately when it reaches full charge, but instead the voltage drops a little and the fan shuts off, but both the charger and a certain place on the pack stay warm and the voltage does not drop down as far as when the charger is turned off altogether.

 

[BatteryKing]

As another note does anybody understand how the DB9 connector on this HPS pack work and what electrical specifications it coheres to?

 

[Ypedal]

edit : ok.. Don just had a hissy fit over this document... until i clear this crap up.. i am removing the posted document... for god sakes some people have no clue...

Edit 2 : so the document i posted earlier is relevant to the 72v VMS i have on hand, that i got direct from PSI/Raymond last year, it does not reflect the current lifebatt boards that Don claims has active LVC built in.. f.y.i.

 

[BMI]

As another note does anybody understand how the DB9 connector on this HPS pack work and what electrical specifications it coheres to?

Lifebatt should of provided you with a diagram showing all the pinouts of the DB9 data connectors and what they do.

If you want to use the HPS battery which has the same sort of automatic cut off features for over discharge and over charge you need to use either the battery protection module (BPM) or the brand new "HPS Driver" module which you can interface with any contactor, relay or solid state relay.

I am going away for a couple of weeks to work on an EV project interstate but when I am back I will post some photos and a full description of the "HPS Driver" module. Full details will be on the BMI website.
It is a fantastic little unit and allows for many advanced interface possibilities with the HPS batteries.

If you are using a proper factory supplied and approved Lifebatt/BMI charger it should turn off automatically when the battery is fully charged. If you are using a Sonneil charger or some other charger then this might be where the problem comes from since the Sonneil chargers are not supplied by the Lifebatt factory and are not the approved charger by the Lifebatt factory.

 

[BatteryKing]

When it comes to the LVC switch, LiFeBatt claims its newer packs have this technology integrated and in general the VMS system has been updated multiple times since they started selling their packs. What is your knowledge on these more recent claims from LiFeBatt and the management electronics in their packs?

Also what kind of agreements do you have with the factory as opposed to LiFeBatt if you don't mind me asking?

 

[BMI]

When it comes to the LVC switch, LiFeBatt claims its newer packs have this technology integrated and in general the VMS system has been updated multiple times since they started selling their packs. What is your knowledge on these more recent claims from LiFeBatt and the management electronics in their packs?

Also what kind of agreements do you have with the factory as opposed to LiFeBatt if you don't mind me asking?

But you are talking about the current HPS batteries which is what you own and which does not have LVC.

I deal on a daily basis with the factory engineers and as an electrical engineer myself I provide my advise and input into the battery design and therefore the final product which comes out of the factory. You may not be aware but on the HPS battery you own I was the engineer responsibe for the aluminium extrusion sides as well as providing input regarding the VMS "fuel gauge" LED's. The HPS packs were originally going to have steel sides which would of made the batteries much heavier and prone to rusting in the long term. Luckily the factory took my advice and used aluminium as I suggested. The factory engineers take my advise seriously and seem to implement quite a few of my suggestions. I have provided my advise on the new generation of batteries. There are two changes I would like to see implented in any new battery design and I will be waiting to see if either or both of my suggestions will be implemented in the new batteries.

 

[miro13car]

Maybe it is not known
my Soneil charger was authorized by Don Harmon to be used for HPS pack.
I knew nothing about BMI that I could buy from Armin.
After my second LB charger Don became unpatient said he would not offer chargers anymore, sent me to authorized contact at Soneil.
MC

 

[soul_bandaid]

Maybe it is not known
my Soneil charger was authorized by Don Harmon to be used for HPS pack.
I knew nothing about BMI that I could buy from Armin.
After my second LB charger Don became unpatient said he would not offer chargers anymore, sent me to authorized contact at Soneil.
MC

You would think a company charging such a premium for batteries in exchange for warranties and service, would at least make sure you had a charger that worked included for the markup on cells. But if we keep this up this will just turn into another bash on don and lifebatt thread :lol:

 

[miro13car]

My first charger which came with battery charged battery but never showed end of charge LED. I never new when to stop charging. So it worked sort of but newer signaled end of charge which means was faulty.
MC

 

[AndyH]

When it comes to the LVC switch, LiFeBatt claims its newer packs have this technology integrated and in general the VMS system has been updated multiple times since they started selling their packs. What is your knowledge on these more recent claims from LiFeBatt and the management electronics in their packs?

You have two LEDs in your HPS case between the DB9 connectors, right? The left one is the LVC signal, the right is high voltage. The internal buzzer is also set to respond to both HV and LV events.

I've got the docs straight from the manufacturer - for both the BMI/LB VMS board configured for starting batteries and the larger VMS the company makes for EVs.

Here's a place with more info on the boards: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10282

 

[miro13car]

how can be LVC integrated into HPS pack.
OK originally HPS , first HPSs never had ANY LVC integrated.
unless your pack has been enlarged....No way they made HPS bigger to accomodate LVC.
And you need room to put LVC in.
Why?
First , what is LVC exactely?
As name implacate C- for cut out, means there must be some electronic switch FET/MOSFET which conduct load currant which in HPS can as high as 100A during normal operation.
When electronics detect LV treshold FET/MOSFET disconnects load current.
For every electronically minded person is clear that you must provide sizable heatsink to conduct 100A.
My HPS had 160A fuse inside, so maybe like 140A through FET/MOSFET???
Where in HPS there is room for that?
Just look at FACTORY TOUR pictures on LB website.
I am sure BatteryKing 48V pack upper cover has room for just 4 small VMSes and it is IDENTICAL to my 36V pack cover.
Rest of the pack inside is thightly pack.
WHERE is room for LVC switch??
Correct me if I am wrong!!!
Again check this factory tour, HPS is modular,
MC

 

[AndyH]

Sorry for the confusion, MC. Communication at it's best.

I used LVC to mean low-voltage control, not cut-off. Let's use the manufacturer's acronym - LVP - low voltage protection.

These boards have the capability to sense cell voltage and trigger signals for both low voltage set points and high voltage set points.

The signal is used to trigger an LED, to make an audible signal, and to trigger a 0-5V signal on the ribbon cable and DB9 connector used to communicate between VMS boards and between packs.

The VMS is designed to DETECT and REPORT the problem. This is no different than the Fechter/Goodrum BMS - it sends a signal to the controller to shut down - it doesn't have an 'active cut-off'.

View attachment VMS1.jpg

The company does have a number of active-cutoff boards that are signaled from the VMS - but the active cut-off function is not part of the VMS. Again - this is documented in the thread where we're actually talking about these boards.

 

[miro13car]

To claryfy:
my comment is NOT on VMS .
It is on what Batteryking was told by LB.
Batteryking was told by LBatt that that "LVC switch" is "integrated" in HPS packs /latest ones=I understand.
it is reprinted 2 times on this page.
"LVC switch integrated into HPS" - I understand Batteryking said he was told by LifeBatt.
What is LVC switch ?
solid state relay SSR, mechanical relay, FET, agree?
low voltage is detected and signal activate switch.
If switch were inside HPS it must had been enlarged, because FETs with heatsink need room, SSR needs room, relay needs room. I opend HPS pack and looked at insides for weeks when I was rebuilding , there are FACTORY TOUR pictures also you can look at -- it is thightly packed.
no way there is room for any switch capable of 150Amps inside HPS!!
again
Construction of HPS is modular. If they made 48V HPS bigger the would also made all line of HPS bigger - very unlikely.
You draw conclusion yourself what Batteryking was told.
correct me if I am wrong.
MC

 

[AndyH]

ANE's 60A max active cut-off board connects directly to the VMS board. It's the same size as a VMS board, and doesn't have heatsinks (other than the board). Paralleling a couple of these could give the 140A that's been reported.

While it's possible that our friend got bad info, it's also possible that he has an active cut-off board installed.

While it can sometime be fun to stand around and pretend to be psychics, has anyone thought to open the case and have a look inside?

 

[BatteryKing]

LifeBatt also claims 20C rates, so on a 20Ah pack, that would be 400A max the SSR would have to handle. I once used an 80A SSR for a physics project and that thing was pretty huge in comparison to the tiny top space on the pack. Not sure how you would fit an 80A SSR in there let alone a 400A one, not to mention the cost, which I am sure would be quite substantial. Contact relays would be out of the question for a LVC (low voltage cutoff) because the potential high currents at cut-off time would probably weld the contacts or at the very least severely corrode them in short order. Those thick bars connecting the battery cell terminals in the pictures they show can probably handle very high currents at least.

 

[BatteryKing]

I guess a question would be how does the Ping battery pack work, because I have seen posts on this forum of people talking about some sort of cut-off on those packs and the electronics on those packs are pretty small.

 

[miro13car]

Yes, but Ping 36V or 48V are 2C continous packs not continous 12C packs .

Normally Ping would carry 30A load, but HPS would carry 120A.
That`s why Ping has small heatsink.
Andy, I saw this 60A LVC board on picture somwhere.
But you would need 2 in pallarel for just 120A.
Why would you use just 60A load on 12C capable cells, that's underuse, after all this bragging about 120A continous???
Believe me there is not room inside HPS pack for such board, it needs some air around, it cannot be just crammed, there is not any serious ventilation, holes.
Can you imagine FETs conducting 60A , there are for sure more than just slightly warm.
Claim that LVC SWITCH,/ driver for such switch maybe/ is "integrated" inside HPS pack is just plain not true.
People who took apart HPS pack like me cannot be fooled.
UNLESS physical dimension had been enlarged, but how come, there are still the same as 2 years ago on LB website.
Again Iam talking about LVC SWITCH:SSR,FET, relay.
MC

 

[Ypedal]

batteryking's purpose for the pack is just 50 amps from crystalyte controller.. so a 60 amp board would do.. :wink:

I would personally love to see under the hood

 

[BatteryKing]

I think Don and Michelle would get upset if I took a pack apart while still under warranty.