Need expertise on wiring Turnigy packs?

[EVDragRacer]

Is there a small motor I can buy that will run off 37V 5AH? And what type of small charger do I need to charge the packs individually? I will research, but any quick answers will help.

You will definitely want to break in your individual packs with a few cycles before building up the 50 ah blocks, and then individually test each block for a few cycles to weed out the inevitable pack that puffs. Gotta discharge em somehow, may as well be on something kinda fun like a pitbike. quote]

 

[EVDragRacer]

 

[dogman dan]

I got 8 guage wire with my 30 c turnigys, and 10 guage with my 20c zippy's. So I think you will get 8 guage on anything with really high c rates. That ought to be plenty for handling the power from each individual pack as it goes to connect with larger wire, or bussbars for the big paralell and series connections.

It's once you get the current from multiple packs that you need the big wrie. I think you'd be wanting to do solid solder connections from the big discharge wires on each little pack to a bar or fat wire on each 37v section of battery. Then large wire like welding cables connects each section to make up the series connection.

I don't know what size wire, but It won't be regular jumper cable. You need huge, so that got me thinking big copper bars on each 37v section. Or maybe you could just strip long peices of 8 guage and bundle or braid them all into a big fat wire with a connector on the end. Then wrap it with insulation.

As for a test motor for a pitbike you could find a used electric scooter, use a motor intended for electric scooters on anything from a bike to a dead gas go cart, or get a bike hubmotor kit. The fun thing to do would be get a hubmotor, A solid steel MTB bike frame, and a powerfull 72v controller from Lyens in this forums for sale section.

Basicly build yourself a bike similar to my race bike, but with rear motor. Then break in the packs drag racing the bike. 8) Look at bike build threads in the picture section for ideas, especially those by Methods, or others running 100v and such. Here's a few links, far from the whole list of great ebikes displayed here, but browsing these should introduce you to the players here who have built fun fast bikes.

I can't stress enough how much money you could save making a few mistakes learning stuff at bike scale, vs car size.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17166&start=0

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8482&start=0

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8482&start=0

Here's one of the good places to get chargers, for those break in and balancing cycles. You'll want one that works fairly fast, so ignore the 50 watt ones.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?catname=Battery+Chargers&idCategory=216&ParentCat=408

 

[EVDragRacer]

Thanks for the recommendations,you guys have been very helpful in my battery project. I will post pictures as I build this monster!

I got 8 guage wire with my 30 c turnigys, and 10 guage with my 20c zippy's. So I think you will get 8 guage on anything with really high c rates. That ought to be plenty for handling the power from each individual pack as it goes to connect with larger wire, or bussbars for the big paralell and series connections.

It's once you get the current from multiple packs that you need the big wrie. I think you'd be wanting to do solid solder connections from the big discharge wires on each little pack to a bar or fat wire on each 37v section of battery. Then large wire like welding cables connects each section to make up the series connection.

I don't know what size wire, but It won't be regular jumper cable. You need huge, so that got me thinking big copper bars on each 37v section. Or maybe you could just strip long peices of 8 guage and bundle or braid them all into a big fat wire with a connector on the end. Then wrap it with insulation.

As for a test motor for a pitbike you could find a used electric scooter, use a motor intended for electric scooters on anything from a bike to a dead gas go cart, or get a bike hubmotor kit. The fun thing to do would be get a hubmotor, A solid steel MTB bike frame, and a powerfull 72v controller from Lyens in this forums for sale section.

Basicly build yourself a bike similar to my race bike, but with rear motor. Then break in the packs drag racing the bike. 8) Look at bike build threads in the picture section for ideas, especially those by Methods, or others running 100v and such. Here's a few links, far from the whole list of great ebikes displayed here, but browsing these should introduce you to the players here who have built fun fast bikes.

I can't stress enough how much money you could save making a few mistakes learning stuff at bike scale, vs car size.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17166&start=0

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8482&start=0

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8482&start=0

Here's one of the good places to get chargers, for those break in and balancing cycles. You'll want one that works fairly fast, so ignore the 50 watt ones.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?catname=Battery+Chargers&idCategory=216&ParentCat=408

 

[EVDragRacer]

I have looked at the chargers, I do not see one that works for a 10S pack, am I missing something?

Here's one of the good places to get chargers, for those break in and balancing cycles. You'll want one that works fairly fast, so ignore the 50 watt ones.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?catname=Battery+Chargers&idCategory=216&ParentCat=408

 

[AussieJester]

I have looked at the chargers, I do not see one that works for a 10S pack, am I missing something?

Here's one of the good places to get chargers, for those break in and balancing cycles. You'll want one that works fairly fast, so ignore the 50 watt ones.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?catname=Battery+Chargers&idCategory=216&ParentCat=408

If your looking for a kick ass rc charger dont look at Hobby City... The Hyperion 1420i does upto 14s check here for more info on it

Best of luck with your build, my ears are still ringing from last nights trip to the drags, Nitro Funny cars
were running no matter how many times i see them they always put a smile on my face...

KiM

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

...what type of small charger do I need to charge the packs individually? I will research, but any quick answers will help.

14s:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=23362

Hyperion EOS 1420i NET3 14s Balance Charger

or 10s:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=18225&start=0
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22168&p=322924#p322924

but the first 2 digits represent the charge current, so a 106 is only going to charge at 10amps max. The 20x series charges at 20amps, and the 30x series charges at 30amps (the icharger 3010b is currently my favorite battery charger ever to grace planet earth for any price, but you don't need 30amp charging on just a 10ah pack)

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=11597

iCharger 3010B 1000W 10s Balance/Charger

 

[EVDragRacer]

Thanks!

I have looked at the chargers, I do not see one that works for a 10S pack, am I missing something?

Here's one of the good places to get chargers, for those break in and balancing cycles. You'll want one that works fairly fast, so ignore the 50 watt ones.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?catname=Battery+Chargers&idCategory=216&ParentCat=408

If your looking for a kick ass rc charger dont look at Hobby City... The Hyperion 1420i does upto 14s check here for more info on it

Best of luck with your build, my ears are still ringing from last nights trip to the drags, Nitro Funny cars
were running no matter how many times i see them they always put a smile on my face...

KiM

 

[EVDragRacer]

Thank you!

Hi,

...what type of small charger do I need to charge the packs individually? I will research, but any quick answers will help.

14s:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=23362

Hyperion EOS 1420i NET3 14s Balance Charger

or 10s:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=18225&start=0
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22168&p=322924#p322924

but the first 2 digits represent the charge current, so a 106 is only going to charge at 10amps max. The 20x series charges at 20amps, and the 30x series charges at 30amps (the icharger 3010b is currently my favorite battery charger ever to grace planet earth for any price, but you don't need 30amp charging on just a 10ah pack)

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=11597

iCharger 3010B 1000W 10s Balance/Charger

 

[dogman dan]

Somehow I was missing that he was going to use the 10s packs. There may be other goodies he can use at HK though.

 

[EVDragRacer]

I like more "goodies" what do you have in mind?

Somehow I was missing that he was going to use the 10s packs. There may be other goodies he can use at HK though.

 

[liveforphysics]

If I was going to make this pack, I would go with 5s packs rather than 10s.

Either way, you end up with the same number of connections, but going in 5s packs gives you greater freedom to configure, solve cell problems, etc.

To connect, I would buy packs of the 8mm bullets, drill some 1/4"x3/4" copper bus strips (which really aren't as $$ as people think, I buy them in 10ft pieces all the time).
Use all male connectors for every discharge lead on each of the 10 packs in parallel. Drill the hole in the copper bus to be 8mm ID, then force each male connector end into the bus. You make 20 holes in each buss strip, and it makes a series connection for each pack that is easy to make, compact, easy to service if needed, and most important, easily able to handle 5,000-10,000amps for the duration of a drag race.

Group the packs in side-by-side groups of 10, each set of balance taps plugged into balance tap paralleling boards, then snip each positive lead, solder on the 8mm male end, and stick it onto the bus. Have the bus-bars all screwed to a sheet of 1/4" lexan as the back-plane. In between each set of copper bus-bars, have a Turnigy voltage monitor/cell-logger/battery medic (which ever flavor is your favorite).

Then, when not racing, unplug each voltage monitor after it's all balanced.


You do NOT need an RC charger at all. It's actually kinda a nightmare of an idea. You want to dumb-charge ONLY. RC chargers would be useless to balance this pack at the track anyways, and if you're not balanced before you leave for the track, you shouldn't be racing, and you've got days and weeks to balance it while it's in your garage.

You want a single 415v CC/CV supply to charge with. At the track, you don't want to be dicking with plugging in and setting up 20 chargers.

 

[texaspyro]

Best of luck with your build, my ears are still ringing from last nights trip to the drags, Nitro Funny cars
were running no matter how many times i see them they always put a smile on my face...

So that's why the call them funny cars...

 

[dogman dan]

LFP's shopping list is some of the goodies I refered too. His pack design is somthing like what I was vaguely picturing in my mind, but I was stumped on how to easily connect to the bussbars. Brilliant.

The only use for the RC charger was for the early experiments with something smaller than a car, balance charging for break in cycles, troubleshooting a single pack, etc.

 

[EVDragRacer]

That information sounds great. I must use the 10S packs, already in flight. Can I still use your system with the 10S? Also, if you are willing, I need diagrams drawn up to explain more in detail of what you are recommending. I am willing to pay for support, please contact me at:
ecedraev@gmail.com

I really appreciate your guys help, I have been catching slack from other ev builders stating I cannot balance or install a BMS system on pre-built 10S 5AH packs, they state I must rip apart the packs and make them all parallel. This I do not want to do.

I want to state my experience, I have over 25 years building race cars, but with ICE. I am new to the EV world, but learning everyday. Because I am an experienced welder, and mechanic I feel with the right help (instructions) I can build any pack.

Again, thank you all! :lol:

Ron

If I was going to make this pack, I would go with 5s packs rather than 10s.

Either way, you end up with the same number of connections, but going in 5s packs gives you greater freedom to configure, solve cell problems, etc.

To connect, I would buy packs of the 8mm bullets, drill some 1/4"x3/4" copper bus strips (which really aren't as $$ as people think, I buy them in 10ft pieces all the time).
Use all male connectors for every discharge lead on each of the 10 packs in parallel. Drill the hole in the copper bus to be 8mm ID, then force each male connector end into the bus. You make 20 holes in each buss strip, and it makes a series connection for each pack that is easy to make, compact, easy to service if needed, and most important, easily able to handle 5,000-10,000amps for the duration of a drag race.

Group the packs in side-by-side groups of 10, each set of balance taps plugged into balance tap paralleling boards, then snip each positive lead, solder on the 8mm male end, and stick it onto the bus. Have the bus-bars all screwed to a sheet of 1/4" lexan as the back-plane. In between each set of copper bus-bars, have a Turnigy voltage monitor/cell-logger/battery medic (which ever flavor is your favorite).

Then, when not racing, unplug each voltage monitor after it's all balanced.


You do NOT need an RC charger at all. It's actually kinda a nightmare of an idea. You want to dumb-charge ONLY. RC chargers would be useless to balance this pack at the track anyways, and if you're not balanced before you leave for the track, you shouldn't be racing, and you've got days and weeks to balance it while it's in your garage.

You want a single 415v CC/CV supply to charge with. At the track, you don't want to be dicking with plugging in and setting up 20 chargers.

 

[liveforphysics]

That information sounds great. I must use the 10S packs, already in flight. Can I still use your system with the 10S?

Yes, it can still be done with the 10s packs, it simply requires running a pair of balance tap boards to combine them for each pack, and a little more cramped buss layout.

Also, if you are willing, I need diagrams drawn up to explain more in detail of what you are recommending. I am willing to pay for support, please contact me at:
ecedraev@gmail.com

My friend, the last thing I would do is try to get a fellow racers money. Racing does a plenty good job taking our money on it's own.
I will absolutely work on pack development for you, and I happen to have a CNC machine and sheets of Poly-Carbonate, and sticks of copper bus-bars.
The only thing I would ask in exchange for helping your project is that you freely and openly share the things learned in your journey, failures and successes, improved procedures and methods, problems experienced with designs etc. The electric drag racing community is so small right now, info needs to come out to show folks methods that work and don't work to help take a big chunk of the development/RnD costs out of grass-roots electric racing efforts. Openly share your project details and work, and you've got my full support.

I really appreciate your guys help, I have been catching slack from other ev builders stating I cannot balance or install a BMS system on pre-built 10S 5AH packs, they state I must rip apart the packs and make them all parallel. This I do not want to do.

Nope. You absolutely don't need to do anything like that. We've got hundreds of systems, including a number of my own, that have been operating perfectly for years now using the outside discharge leads and paralleled balance taps. You CAN install any BMS you wanted with this method (which you don't want to do), and you absolutely don't have to open any packs.

I want to state my experience, I have over 25 years building race cars, but with ICE. I am new to the EV world, but learning everyday. Because I am an experienced welder, and mechanic I feel with the right help (instructions) I can build any pack.

Again, thank you all! :lol:

Ron

You sound like my father. The skills you've got are more valuable to building an EV racecar than having EV specific skills. Likewise, you need to understand that nobody who is an electrician (even the master admin 01 level electrician down the street or that is friends with a buddy) can help you with this project. Likewise, the masters degree having electronics engineer is useless towards helping you do the high-power side of this project. It's unfortunate, but true. Electricians run wires and look up a chart to determine the size, once in a while following a schematic for wiring something. The electronics engineer works in a world of mili-amps rather than kila-amps, and has no concept of inductive path optimization or high current parallel array issues. Don't let these well-meaning folks discourage or steer you off track from the designs we come up with, which will be designed around strong power-electronics principals (the only type of engineer you should listen to if you ever can find one, a power electronics specialized EE, which is sadly extremely rare in the USA.)

 

[Bazaki]

Looking forward to see some building pictures of the batterypack with 100x HK lipo stuff
You really ordered al 100 of them ?

Did you also decide what controller and motor you are going to use ? Please share it with us, I'm curious about al other parts.

 

[EVDragRacer]

Okay, great I can't wait to see your design. I have also found one very nice guy, Tom. He agrees with your data that it will work. Please forward info when ready.

Thanks, and yes I will post step by step with pictures. :wink:

Ron

That information sounds great. I must use the 10S packs, already in flight. Can I still use your system with the 10S?

Yes, it can still be done with the 10s packs, it simply requires running a pair of balance tap boards to combine them for each pack, and a little more cramped buss layout.

Also, if you are willing, I need diagrams drawn up to explain more in detail of what you are recommending. I am willing to pay for support, please contact me at:
ecedraev@gmail.com

My friend, the last thing I would do is try to get a fellow racers money. Racing does a plenty good job taking our money on it's own.
I will absolutely work on pack development for you, and I happen to have a CNC machine and sheets of Poly-Carbonate, and sticks of copper bus-bars.
The only thing I would ask in exchange for helping your project is that you freely and openly share the things learned in your journey, failures and successes, improved procedures and methods, problems experienced with designs etc. The electric drag racing community is so small right now, info needs to come out to show folks methods that work and don't work to help take a big chunk of the development/RnD costs out of grass-roots electric racing efforts. Openly share your project details and work, and you've got my full support.

I really appreciate your guys help, I have been catching slack from other ev builders stating I cannot balance or install a BMS system on pre-built 10S 5AH packs, they state I must rip apart the packs and make them all parallel. This I do not want to do.

Nope. You absolutely don't need to do anything like that. We've got hundreds of systems, including a number of my own, that have been operating perfectly for years now using the outside discharge leads and paralleled balance taps. You CAN install any BMS you wanted with this method (which you don't want to do), and you absolutely don't have to open any packs.

I want to state my experience, I have over 25 years building race cars, but with ICE. I am new to the EV world, but learning everyday. Because I am an experienced welder, and mechanic I feel with the right help (instructions) I can build any pack.

Again, thank you all! :lol:

Ron

You sound like my father. The skills you've got are more valuable to building an EV racecar than having EV specific skills. Likewise, you need to understand that nobody who is an electrician (even the master admin 01 level electrician down the street or that is friends with a buddy) can help you with this project. Likewise, the masters degree having electronics engineer is useless towards helping you do the high-power side of this project. It's unfortunate, but true. Electricians run wires and look up a chart to determine the size, once in a while following a schematic for wiring something. The electronics engineer works in a world of mili-amps rather than kila-amps, and has no concept of inductive path optimization or high current parallel array issues. Don't let these well-meaning folks discourage or steer you off track from the designs we come up with, which will be designed around strong power-electronics principals (the only type of engineer you should listen to if you ever can find one, a power electronics specialized EE, which is sadly extremely rare in the USA.)

 

[EVDragRacer]

Motor - Two Netgain 11", controller is a Zilla 2k from Cafe Electric. 2000amps, 340V. Pictures on: www.ECEDRA.com

Looking forward to see some building pictures of the batterypack with 100x HK lipo stuff
You really ordered al 100 of them ?

Did you also decide what controller and motor you are going to use ? Please share it with us, I'm curious about al other parts.

 

[x88x]

Motor - Two Netgain 11", controller is a Zilla 2k from Cafe Electric. 2000amps, 340V. Pictures on: http://www.ECEDRA.com

You're using 2 11" Netgains?!

Are those set up separately or in a twin config?

I'll express my concerns again about the Zilla 2K. It's an awesome controller, but with a limit of 2kA, you're only ever pulling 40C out of these batteries. And that makes me a saaad panda. If I were you, I would try and contact Otmar and see if he has any suggestions for running in the 4.5kA to 10kA burst range.

 

[Bazaki]

Maybe he can order a second controller of the same model later and each controller connected to a motor.
340v x 2000 amp is about 1000 HP twice would be 2000 HP.

That would make me a very happy Panda and all other EV competitors very sad I think )

 

[EVDragRacer]

The motors are set-up with a heavy duty "connector" made by Rev Conversions, combines two motors into one. The controller is my only limiting factor, but thats all I can get for now. I am also creating the pack smaller down to 25AH and 333V. The car is all fiberglass and will weigh under 2500lbs with great traction, so she will get good times. :lol:

Must find a stronger controller!

Motor - Two Netgain 11", controller is a Zilla 2k from Cafe Electric. 2000amps, 340V. Pictures on: http://www.ECEDRA.com

You're using 2 11" Netgains?!

Are those set up separately or in a twin config?

I'll express my concerns again about the Zilla 2K. It's an awesome controller, but with a limit of 2kA, you're only ever pulling 40C out of these batteries. And that makes me a saaad panda. If I were you, I would try and contact Otmar and see if he has any suggestions for running in the 4.5kA to 10kA burst range.

 

[liveforphysics]

The right chassis (which it looks like you've got) should be able to handle everything you can hit it with straight from the line.

I'm envisioning a contactor being well suited for your racing, and the controller used just to drive around, stage, and pre-load the chassis off the line lock.


And by contactor, I'm thinking something like a pair of 4" wide x 1/4" thick strips of copper that are bracketed above each other with something like 4 big valve springs that normally want to keep the connection apart, and you have to physically (or pneumatically etc) Pull the lever (or push the pedal) that crushes the plates together, and just let it pull whatever current the motor/battery combo decides to draw. Then the Zilla (which is also in parallel and getting full-throttle signal) can be used to absorb the arc and flyback when the contactor disconnects. The Zilla might not be able to handle the 5Ka flyback spike though... So perhaps you need one of the snazzy new silicon carbide TVS clamps that handles like 100,000amp surges for a split second. Or run the contactor setup in some liquid that will help control/minimize the plasma, and just keep the Zilla entirely out of the circuit (to protect it) after you get staged.

You're also going to want something like maybe 4 turns of det-cord around both of the power wires going to the motor with an electronic detonation setup that is hooked up to your panic button inside the car, so if something sticks in the "ON" position or whatever, you can survive it. About 5 months ago a guy at my local track got his head cut-off by going too deep into the run-out area and getting snagged by the safety cable under his helmet... Makes a guy think an emergency disconnect is a pretty good idea, even though it would hopefully never have to be used.

 

[EVDragRacer]

I have found a second Zilla 2k HV, should have it soon. Will keep pack voltage at Zilla specs, and keep teh pack at 50AH. With 5000amps available from my pack two Zilla's will fut nice! The packs have started to arrive from China,

 

[EVDragRacer]

Wiring two controllers (Zilla 2K HV's) to two Netgain 11" motors is why I am starting this post. I have not spoken with my guy yet on how to wire this type of set-up (Holiday), so I am starting this to help me and new ev racers.
I am assuming both controllers must be wired separately to each motor in series to gain 4000amps at the wheels? Has this been done before? I know Lawless wired two Zilla 2K's to one motor to create 4000amps, but two motors? Any thoughts?