New electric mountain bike frame by Phasor Cycles

[Hyena]

Nice.
How structural are the side covers ?
If one wanted a low key looking build that didn't stand out and only had limited range, would it be possible to just fit batteries to the down tube and seat tube section of the frame ? Thus maintaining a hollow triangle ?
Granted, you'd need a way to hold the batteries in place, and I"m guessing velcro ain't gonna cut it... :lol:

 

[GCinDC]

Granted, you'd need a way to hold the batteries in place, and I"m guessing velcro ain't gonna cut it... :lol:

wouldn't you use an inner tube, H?

looks fabulicious.

 

[Hyena]

haha you must be psychic, just 5 minutes ago (2am here) I strapped a controller and a handful of lipo to an old bike with inner tubes to test a new kit I'm testing and tuning :lol:
Duct tape is too permanant, inner tubes are where it's at for quick test rides and being ghetto fabulous

 

[kfong]

Damn that looks nice.

This is from earlier this week. The components all fit great and now it is off to powder coating.

"What color scheme are you going with?"
"Any pictures with the side panals on?"
"is there a chance u could make a cutout (on the top of the frame ) for the buttons and screen of the CA?"

We are going with an antifreeze green powder coating, Then we will also post some photos of the panels and bottom bracket details (for Kfong)!

The new cycle analyst (bigger screen) does not fit in the width of this frame. If you still have an older version CA it will fit, and we can discuss cut-outs.

Looking good!

 

[Alan B]

Get a few rolls of 3M Vet-Wrap. Better than inner tubes or duct tape...

 

[Whiplash]

Awesome so far! I can't wait to see it all done!! Hurry up! LOL!

By the way, maybe I missed it, what is the cost looking like for the bare frame un-painted?? ------- EDIT: Found it thanks!-----


This thing and a Cro-Motor with around 44.4V and like 35AH would be an AWESOME high speed trail machine!!

Cromotor fast on 44 volts ?

For trails? I would assume that would be about 30ish MPH, so yes that's fast on a trail...

 

[Andje]

Just found this.
Jaw is on the floor.

My ONE complaint is price; not because it's unfair, I just think it is very close to "uncompetitive". If you look at 2nd hand dh bikes for frames (something vaguely comparable), you can find many in NA on pinkbike for under 1500, and that is usually the whole bike with every component including a frame that was 500+$ new. It could never compare to what you are offering directly, but I will pay almost anything for this hobby, and I could never justify 1400 on just the frame, no matter how perfect. It's a case of being a mechanical hobbyist and being able to build things going along with the hobby, and then being limited by funds on all these builds. I can build a battery rack, but not batteries, if you catch my drift. So if I have to start justifying costs, I don't NEED a perfect frame with an internal mounted solution, I just want one (o boy do I want one). For me this will remain a lottery dream until the price comes down to the 500-800 range, and I think that as a 26 y/o white male in Ontario who is a young college student I can say that that sort of price really would open up your market hugely, same way this larger one I think shuts down a good chunk of it.
Someone once told me; never tell them the price until they have ridden it. I think that was the sagest advice I've ever heard about EV's.

 

[pwbset]

I hope you can get your production up to speed by the summer riding season. Looking for a frame by April-May and this one is a serious contender for me. Keep us posted. Thanks.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Just found this.
Jaw is on the floor.

My ONE complaint is price; not because it's unfair, I just think it is very close to "uncompetitive". If you look at 2nd hand dh bikes for frames (something vaguely comparable), you can find many in NA on pinkbike for under 1500, and that is usually the whole bike with every component including a frame that was 500+$ new. It could never compare to what you are offering directly, but I will pay almost anything for this hobby, and I could never justify 1400 on just the frame, no matter how perfect. It's a case of being a mechanical hobbyist and being able to build things going along with the hobby, and then being limited by funds on all these builds. I can build a battery rack, but not batteries, if you catch my drift. So if I have to start justifying costs, I don't NEED a perfect frame with an internal mounted solution, I just want one (o boy do I want one). For me this will remain a lottery dream until the price comes down to the 500-800 range, and I think that as a 26 y/o white male in Ontario who is a young college student I can say that that sort of price really would open up your market hugely, same way this larger one I think shuts down a good chunk of it.
Someone once told me; never tell them the price until they have ridden it. I think that was the sagest advice I've ever heard about EV's.

For me having all the batteries in the frame is a big + that are hidden behind panels, you can hide all the wiring and controller. Then the droupouts would also be suitably strong to not have to worry about torque arms. + it will look good and full suspension. If these things are important, then I think people would buy it. I couldn't afford it now because of all the money I've spent so far on my bike, and the fact I would have to spend another 1000 Euro's or so for quality parts, then new controller, motor, batteries. You are talking another 2000 maybe 4500 Euro's in total. But you would have one really fun bike. The other thing I forgot about was shipping, and to Europe I'm betting it will be very expensive!!!

You can get a 2nd hand downhill bike for maybe 600-700 euro's but then you have the hassle of torque arms, and trying to mount the batteries!

 

[oatnet]

My ONE complaint is price; not because it's unfair, I just think it is very close to "uncompetitive".

+1

Beautiful frame, nicely though out, and the labor involved is obvious. However, even though I have a generous budget for eBikes, I am not ready to meet the price tag. There probably is a niche of users that will, though, so best of luck with it!

-JD

 

[SHiFT]

Awesome!

I had a thought for how you might expand the market for your bike.

One way you could start to open up the potential market could be by providing a modular bottom bracket "area" or "drive box" to accommodate the different types of drive systems.

So your market right now is essentially:
Home builders
Who want an offroad bike
Which uses a hub motor
DH bike geometry


It's two parts. The frame and a drive box that mounts to tabs on the frame. A "drive box" would be a mounting system designed to fit on any frame you build with 4 bolts (or something), but each drive box would be capable of accepting a different kind of motor configurations.

You would then supply different drive boxes designed for different drives, for example:
Standard BB and Crank for Hub motor
Recumpence Drive + Crank
Jackshaft Style Crank + motor (a good choice if you want to go Belt all the way)
Pinion gearset capable http://pinion.eu/discover-pinion/pinion-p1-18/
No Crank, only a motor like an etek or mars.
Open Mounting - Mostly a DIY option for someone to retrofit their own setup

On top of the expanding the drive-type options, all your future frame designs could take advantage of a standardized drive mounting system, enabling again many choices for frame design from road to recumbent, or DH to Supermoto, with no extra drive-design work.

Something like this would cost more to develop for sure, and is probably not good to even attempt right now, but seeing the variety of bikes here (and my own odd tastes), it could make your frame a much more viable option for a larger market of builders - myself included.

SHiFT

 

[Andje]

The more i think about it, bombers sell in aussie land and that things is way overpriced in exactly the same way; I'd buy one if I won the lottery, but not before. So in NA you may indeed find a generous market of people with money who CANT build their own willing to pay for what is obviously an amazing NA product. I've often told interested people that in NA there is no "bike" that I can point them too, only information. If you can lead that market you could do well with the right marketing.
Our musings must be just that too what is obviously a well thought out venture.

We have the Jig about 80% done and we have all the materials ordered

The more I think about THAT the more I want one just to support NA manufacturing.

 

[full-throttle]

I think the price is reasonable, it would be hard to find a custom frame builder who will charge less than $1,400 for a quality hardtail/road frame. When you say 'non-competitive' which other e-bike specific suspension frames are you referring to? Greyborg?

Phasor: get used to the comments above, some people don't understand that the price of a finished product is far more than raw material cost OR simply don't value their time

Would be great to see a Phasor owners thread on ES. Good luck!

 

[Gordo]

Get a few rolls of 3M Vet-Wrap. Better than inner tubes or duct tape...

Try the chinese vetwrap. Seems like the same stuff, only way cheaper. IIRC 3 rolls was $9 with $5 shipping. Then they sent me an email that the shipping to Canuckiztan was $27, so I passed.

 

[Alan B]

I've heard it isn't quite the same, but if you can get the shipping cheap it is probably worth a try.

 

[Andje]

I think the price is reasonable, it would be hard to find a custom frame builder who will charge less than $1,400 for a quality hardtail/road frame. When you say 'non-competitive' which other e-bike specific suspension frames are you referring to? Greyborg?

I mean non-competitive as in "There is a market for this product, but it might be impossible for that market to afford this product." I think it would be hard to find someone on ES that actually has 1500$ for a frame; very few people on ES make or get custom frames made. We mostly modify frames because being handy mechanically comes with the hobby. This leads me to believe that to change that trend one would have to challenge that price point of 5-600$ that most of the ES people are spending on frames now, not increase it by 2-3X. An impossibly expensive perfect car is not a business venture even if everyone uses a car. I don't think you'd argue that if these were 5-600$ there would have been a bunch of people that would have wanted to pre ordered one. As we approach the 7-1000$ range less and less hobbyists will be able to justify a frame that costs close to the batteries, and as we pass 1100$ we get into full second hand bike range, with bikes that were 3-5k$ originally.
I may be incorrectly comparing it to a homebuilt system, but to be frank, attaching batteries to the frame is annoying but not a dealbreaker. A good solution would be nice, but doesn't stop you from chucking a Ping in a basket.
BUT. I do agree about it being a reasonable fee for the labour involved; I am not one of those people who wants everything cheap over quality. I respect and desire more NA manufacturing even if it costs more; I love the idea of these responsible educated people caring about MY bike frame, making it perfect, and being able to make a reasonable living. I still have my financial limits though, and my gut feeling is that I could never justify this cost unless I was at the point of spending money on aesthetics. I wish things were different, but that's how I see it. It's terrifying that Chinese quality and prices may have severely influenced my needed level of quality of life by providing cheap luxuries that would break that where otherwise permanently out of my price range.

Phasor: get used to the comments above, some people don't understand that the price of a finished product is far more than raw material cost OR simply don't value their time

But if he should get used to the comment above, isn't that a bit frightening for his business venture? There is no magical category of people that nods sagely when met with an enormous expense. Consumers want as much as they can get within their budget, otherwise everyone would be paying interest on loans for BMW's and Porsches. I'm saying I'm worried this cost is outside of that budget for most people who might be interested. But I am not in marketing or consumer analyzation so I don't know. It would be facetious to think that the team involved in this venture hadn't thought about this stuff too, and they know a lot more then us about the situation.

 

[Ariane]

For me having all the batteries in the frame is a big + that are hidden behind panels, you can hide all the wiring and controller. Then the droupouts would also be suitably strong to not have to worry about torque arms. + it will look good and full suspension. If these things are important, then I think people would buy it.

+1 with this frame you can build your own Bomber (Stealth) for much more less with similar or better performance what else do you need exactly guys ? and comparing a second used DH frame bike to a new frame bike is just a none sense, this frame is desing and tested to be an ebike not a DH bike, with modifications. :lol: :lol:

Good day
Black Arrow

 

[Tom Tom]

"There is a market for this product, but it might be impossible for that market to afford this product." I think it would be hard to find someone on ES that actually has 1500$ for a frame

Maybe/Maybe not

I have no idea what people can afford or what they will buy.

But, I think the price is fair. I'm sure phasor is in biz to make some money. I'll bet they have 1000's invested just to
be able get to this point. They gotta recoup that investment and more just to make it worth their time.

 

[Alan B]

Can you buy a Stealth frame? At what price? Is this actually a bad price? What is it worth if they don't make it? What if there are a few early adopters that do buy it and they stay in business and continue on to make lower cost frames later on? What if they are so discouraged by talk that their frame is too expensive and they just give up? What point is there in telling them their frame is too expensive for one customer? Do this one customer represent all their potential customers? Can anyone predict all their customer sales?

We would all love to see lower cost semi custom ebike frames, but first they must launch and survive as a business and measure their market. They can then see how much lowering their costs would increase sales and decide on their future course.

 

[SHiFT]

I spent too much on my first ebike and I would STILL think hard about buying this frame, if it was available with a non-hub motor configuration.

Price is relative.

There are people, like my girlfriend, who was SHOCKED when I said the second hand frame for my first ebike cost me $180 + shipping - which I thought was a steal. She was literally shocked. In her mind, I could get a complete used bike for under $100, so why on earth would I spend $250 for "just the pipes." I would even consider this frame at the price it is because it's one of, what, 2 choices I really have for this purpose.

It's all relative and, while everyone has made their points well, ultimately, it has to be a business decision by Phasor. Without complete knowledge of the parameters of that decision, us going around arguing it is kinda futile. Even if we all were to agree that it should be cheaper, a limited run, handmade, one-of-a-kind, North American product like this is expensive to make, period - plan and simple. There simply is no reconciling consumer-friendly pricing with manufacturing costs (at this point in the game).

 

[full-throttle]

Oh, I see what you mean Andje.. Yep, agree re: small market and DIYers are less likely to pay that much. It is still a niche product that will appeal to some of us.

 

[Kent]

All these points expressed here reinforce the major theme of why nothing is made in USA anymore.

I certainly hope that these good folks stick with it, all grumbling aside, and don't outsource their product to China.

 

[Andje]

For me it's making me think about how I own like 10 different cheap luxuries, and how I wouldn't be willing to give up any of them for one truly superior luxury... Speaks to how we gain pleasure from objects at a basic level imho; more is usually better then better... just like things like your average grocery store bakery section cake or something like that; give em a big enough portion and they get used to anything.
I wish you guys all the best in this venture; for what it's worth I think the market would be in a total bike solution for people who can't build their own until the price drops to the >1000$ mark. Then maybe I can see the made in NA factor swinging me the rest of the way. But one way or another its still frame=batteries, which is steep... I hope your initial investment gets recouped quickly, but you're also obviously not setting up to make a million units next year. If you built a turnkey bike even for 10 grand, I would still be able to tell the 100 people a year who are interested in my bike that yes, there was a bike available fully built in NA and up to our quality. Right now all I can say is ebike.ca and E-S for infos... You never know what middle aged professional would be fully willing to drop 10 grand on a pleasure or commuter vehicle if they had tried one or seen what it could really do. Your frame is gorgeous and your prototyping updates are exactly what we all dream of in an e-v company coming on here and involving the community. I really really hope you succeed, and that I somehow stumble on 1500$ soon that I can drop on supporting NA manufacturing.

 

[Ariane]

I think the market would be in a total bike solution for people who can't build their own until the price drops to the >1000$ mark.

Yeah right it's seemed that you know better than everyone else here at ES how to build a frame like this for less than 1000 $. I'm really curious to see your own prototype and will be happy to buy this frame from you; I mean not an outsourcing frame from china.

Your frame is gorgeous and your prototyping updates are exactly what we all dream of.

I agreed this frame as everything we need for a powerful ebike with a great range many DH ebike frame are light with poor range and l bad looking when they ar converted into an ebike.

I really, really hope you succeed,

without post like this yes probably allot better, now back to the topic!.

Good day!
Black Arrow

 

[Andje]

Hey black arrow, if you have your own opinions then feel free to discuss them in this public forum

Yeah right it's seemed that you know better than everyone else here at ES how to build a frame like this for less than 1000 $. I'm really curious to see your own prototype and will be happy to buy this frame from you; I mean not an outsourcing frame from china.

If you have some ideas on why I'm wrong we can go discuss them somewhere else without flame-thread-jacking maybe?