Noobie planning an Electric bike with >30 mph

I can wait to see where this build is going to end up. I am really looking forward to it :) When do you expect to start the build btw? Do you have any time schedule or estimated time of completion? If you are ever in the Oslo area feel free to come by my workshop.
 
No as of now I don't have any schedule set. There is so much new stuff to get a fairly good grip about before I can start getting parts.
I am new to the whole bike idea, as well as to doing any electrical work. So I must gather a better understanding of what is available and what can be done with each battery chemist. I am not gonna rush into things because I know I would end up doing bad choices or mix parts that do not perform the best together.

For sure I will riding the e-bike next summer if not way earlier. That is the best estimate I can give you.

Where is your shop at? Maybe I can find the time to stop by next I am in Oslo.
 
I think you have the enthusiasm, inelegance, and technical background to make a really interesting bike. Do you have any automation programming experience or have you ever worked with a PLC? You don't happen to be familiar with any machine codes do you?
 
No I don't have any PLC experience. The closest thing if even close is doing DIY project of various types like programming a controller to get me different heat cycles for a homemade microbrewery ten years ago or so and some light/sound/blinds controller for my home a few years later. And I've done a few slow coockers and sous vide cookers as well. So no PLC experience or machine codes.
But I have done tons of programming, from VB and C+ to python and C# to name a few. So I am confident I will figure out how to program a controller if needed.

As for moulding I have done several projects small scale. I used to make kayaks and also a few canoes earlier on. So I do know how to make moulds from scratch and have equipment for vacuum bagging, injection moulding in vacuum and an old but reliable vacuum pump. I can also get access to an autoclave if needed.

At the moment I do not have any stress testing software or simulator testing software. Today that should be possible to gain ehh..... somewhere *caugh ** Caugh*.

As for bike geometry I don't think I will take the time to learn all that. From my earlier days of riding motorcycles and mx I do know that angles of forks and suspensions play a big part of the handling of any bike. And why should I reinvent a thing that people have successfully making money from over several decades? I think the best thing I can do for a frame build is to find a frame or rather a complete bike I enjoy that fits both my body and my desired riding style. And just make a "carbon copy" of the geometry. As I lack the proper training and studies of a ME the outcome would most likely not work well if I did the geometry of the frame on my own. :D

I am however confident that I can manage to mould a carbon fiber frame that is light as feather and strong as need be.

For all the doubters of strength of carbon fiber, here is a short clip from the tube:


[youtube]hjErH4_1fks[/youtube]
 
I'm no engineer, so you can just consider this wind from my stink hole.

Consider that a carbon fiber product can be incredibly strong for its intended design, but potentially weak and brittle if used outside its design.
I don't have a great technical explanation for you. I do have a real world example of though.
Carbon hockey sticks took over some years ago. They are light and strong for the intended purpose. To fire off pucks.
Then comes along an aggressive winger, slashes at you, hits your stick and off you go. Next shot you take, your stick explodes into sharp shards of your hard earned money, if it didn't blow up when you were first slashed.

Point is that if impacted or force is applied in a way that it's not designed it often fails spectacularly.
Steel will bend and break but unlikely to blow up. :wink:
As evidenced in the vid You linked.
Riding at 80kph+ on a home built carbon missile sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Don't want to talk you out of it, just want you to be safe.
 
I get your point man. And not being an ME myself the safety issues with carbon fiber is not be taken lightly. (no pun intended)
I would for sure need some stress testing software at hand.
As I do have prior experience working with laminates, resins and composites material as well as the equipment to make hi quality cured parts, so the process itself seems ok and doable. It does however requires pre testing, simulations and probably some guidance from carbon fiber experts to make sure all the joints and stress points are made with enough strength/layers/thickness to withstand the usage.

When it comes to use of fiber carbon frames it is easy to overlook the fact that the material itself is a well known product. It has been and is still been used in various hi strength builds in different ares and industries. It might very well be correct that fiber carbon will not stand impact as well as steel, as you say steel does bend. But if that is really the case wouldn't top manufacturers for MTB's and DH's avoid carbon fiber at all cause just to be on the safe side for any potential lawsuits? Is there any bikes out there that takes a beating like DH bikes does? Still most of the top dogs offer carbon frames off the shelf.

Also the founder of Phasor did some extreme riding on his cabon framed e-bike/mx build. Big vertical drops where he landed on flat surface, multiple crashes and situations where when face down and the bike took impact. And still that frame hold up.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Over to a whole other thing. I've been looking into the mx rims and motorcycle tires. Al tough many members clearly uses it and says it is the bombs it does come with extra weight. Both for the rims and tires.

Maybe a hubmotor is not the best motor to use after all? A cromotor weighs in at more then 12 kilos. 25 lbs. That is some nasty weight really.
Then there are outrunners that can mount in the frame with all of the motor weight centralized. Zero uses a set up like that. Also many forumers do for their daily rides. I mean one of the good thing if I am to do a frame build is I can use and choose pretty much any components I like and choose components that makes for a best possible handling bike.



I don't know. The more I read up, the more uncertain I become. One thing is for sure, the choices I will make for parts will have great impacts on the bikes handling and performance. And there sure is a lot more to building an e-bike then I thought when I first came onto this forum. Really that just makes it a bigger challenge to do both the proper research ahead of time and to ensure the build will start out with the best possible parts and design to meet my budget and criteria.
 
I don't know. The more I read up, the more uncertain I become. One thing is for sure, the choices I will make for parts will have great impacts on the bikes handling and performance. And there sure is a lot more to building an e-bike then I thought when I first came onto this forum. Really that just makes it a bigger challenge to do both the proper research ahead of time and to ensure the build will start out with the best possible parts and design to meet my budget and criteria.
EXCELLENT!
If you want something to ride the first time out within the next year you will need to understand all the components and decide which one are DIY candidates. It is virtually impossible for a single person to singlehandedly custom design and fabricate all components a solid reliable high performing ebike.

Weight - cost - performance. The golden triangle of ebike parts selection.

Weight - This is the easiest design goal to define as all you need is a simple scale. All components can be lightened up. Main aspects are weakening and cost. Light and strong costs $$

Cost - This is more involved as there are multiple variables. Simplest is $$ changing hands. Time and energy are forms of cost as well. For each make vs buy decision you are settings values in the cost calculation. In DIY cases, rarely does one slide through without some redo or added costs for unforeseen events.

Performance - increase power to the wheel. This is the most difficult as there are so many variables in an ebike. The battery pack is a simple object yet has quite a few considerations. Even a buy decision is really critical to get just right as the cost is so high. The more tidy the pack is the less adaptable it is. Alternatively, a bunch of cells and small packs taped together offers more flexibility to reconfigure the pack when you likely want to add volts to what you figured would be enough or more capacity due to ride time.

Even the lonely charger gets so little attention yet charging performance can be a very important criteria for some riders. Most newcomers to battery technology are not even aware of cell management and ensuring all batteries remain balanced and such.

Then there is the controller. Not properly sized and properly managed by yet other components such as a cycle analyst, you will read about the brief cloud of smoke when you inadvertently run the bike too hard.

The brain such as a cycle analyst serve as the eyes and ears on what is going on with the power drive system. It also can control the throttle to avoid blowing things up and allowing things to have a decent life.

Drive systems - hub or mid drive or? So many options and the integration with existing mechanical drive system. Proven designs in high power configurations run left side drive to keep power out of the bike drive system. Bike drive systems are not designed to handle power dished out by many ebike systems. Even if you stay under say 1500 watts (constant running load) you have regular gear configs as well as IGH options.

Motor options - You will find quite a few major categories and then when you dig in you will find quite a few different offerings and options in each.

Wires galore and a lot of reading on harness systems and routing and gauge and connectors.

Then you have the entire topic of frames, wheels, tires, rims, etc. So so many ways to here.

The list goes on and every item on the list has its own sphere of technology, methods, builds, costs, performance, design parameters etc. Attempting DIY on every item requires a solid understanding of all the factors relevant to that component.

I'm glad to hear you feel your eyes and ears opening more and receiving a flood of information. Like I mentioned before I am about 5 months into this journey and feel like I can at least ask an informed question in most areas. All this shows is I have a basic understand of the principles at play and can just commence serious evaluation, design, and selection of all the key components. I try not to get diverted into subjects such as lighting and various methods for connecting them or options for power system cut off switching, etc.

In the end, the only practical and reasonable approach is to understand how and what makes up a solid running bike then decide what makes most sense to you to DIY. Select and buy what you've chosen to purchase. For each DIY components plan to spend a lot of time developing a deeper knowledge base so you can design and build something solid and reliable.

From my vantage point something like a custom carbon frame is hardly worth considering. Going back to weight-cost-performance. It is quite easy to toss this off the DIY list. Cost is quite high. Once built alterations are quite difficult. Is a really stiff frame something you even want. Maybe a softer more flexing frame is better suited to absorb some of the road. The few pounds difference may make a big difference in a road race bike but on bike pushing near 100 pounds, you can get those pounds elsewhere for pennies on the dollar.

Glad you are on board and learning a lot and keeping the credit cards locked up for awhile. It will pay off big time once you do learn sufficiently to design a solid running bike. It takes time, more than you think, especially since many components are linked and intefaced to others. So a change in one impacts one or more of the other ones, somethings a simple ripple but sometimes a major resign and rethink.

Keep it fun and a hobby even if it were being designed to be your primary commuting vehicle.
 
Just completed reading the entire thread. And enjoyed it thoroughly. I'm also new to ebikes and can relate to ALL of the issues and questions raised by the person who started this discussion (less the weight issue maybe :wink: ).

I started reading ES some time ago with the simple idea of a commuter bike, then got discouraged by all the fancy designs I saw. Recently I got hooked up again. I have yet to understand why people would be willing to spend up to $10k on a "bike" that they can't legally drive on either public roads or a pedestrian way. What's the point of a high performance e-bike in an urban /suburban environment and a country with strict traffic law enforcement?

For this reason, a bike, to me, still needs to look, behave and sound like a normal bike even if I would run a higher performance on it than allowed by law. In Europe, that's a mediocre 250w motor. Anything above would need a license plate and registration to my knowledge. Not very exciting to even consider.

So ultimately, I will hopefully end up with two different projects. A slightly overpowered budget bike for city use. Ideally with the option to restrict the motor power to 250w manually if needed. Is this doable?
And an electric motorcycle as a commuter vehicle. As mcribs said, old moto x chassis are available at a fraction of the money of a downhill bike frame. They have great suspension, are more stable at higher speeds, have the space to fill a great amount of battery power (removed motor space), may actually carry some lugguage (useful when commuting to work), and are legal to use on street with simple modification. They may also be more comfy to sit for longer rides. Only drawback is the cost of a high wattage motor and the total amount of batteries required. Yet, still cheaper than the stealth bombers and phasors and in DIY certainly be cheaper than the Zeros and Brammos.

I don't have much of a technical background and plan to start with the bike as a way to get myself familiar. I have an old crappy MTB that must suffice.

Batteries: Will probably use Hobbyking Lipo. Either 6 packs of 6s1P 22.2V for a 44.4V 15AH setup. Or 6 packs of 4S1P 14.8V for a 44.4V 10AH setup. Only cheaper alternative I found is to build the battery packs from used 18650 cells. I know how to solder batteries, but I'm lost with balancing them. So, until I get that knowledge, HK is the best option. Adds up to just $100-$150 for the batteries.

Motor: As I prefer to have no drag when pedaling, a geared motor or mid drive motor seems the way to go. A geared motor would also provide the silence of a bike as a bonus even though I'd prefer the weight distribution of a mid drive. Can anyone recommend a particular brand of geared hub motor? The cheapest I could find is from bmsbattery. But I couldn't find any reviews on it.
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/529-q11-48v1kw-front-driving-hub-motor-e-bike-conversion-kit.html

Do geared hub motors and mid drive motors produce the same power output? I noticed that cyclone sells mid drives with extremely high wattage (up to 8000w) while I have yet to find a geared hub motor clocked higher than 1K watt.
A setup as described above, to my best knowledge, would produce between 444w and 666w. Why would I even want to consider a motor > 1000w? Can a motor be overclocked and still run reliably? I often read on this board that it is the controller that matters most, not the motor. Say I end up liking my bike so much that I wanted to upgrade the 48V motor to 60V and 25AH (for a 1500w setup) with a better controller. Does that work? Or are geared motors a no go then?

Charger: No idea yet. Often read that Hyperion EOS is the way to go for Lipos. But there are so many different models available. What's the cheapest one that can handle at least 6 packs simultaneously? I found an
IMAX-B6 for €20 that can do that (assuming that each "pack" counts as a "cell"?) but what else do I need to look for in a charger?

Overall, it looks to me I can put together a usable city ebike for a few hundred $$. Too ambitious?
 
chriss said:
Just completed reading the entire thread. And enjoyed it thoroughly. I'm also new to ebikes and can relate to ALL of the issues and questions raised by the person who started this discussion (less the weight issue maybe :wink: ).

I started reading ES some time ago with the simple idea of a commuter bike, then got discouraged by all the fancy designs I saw. Recently I got hooked up again. I have yet to understand why people would be willing to spend up to $10k on a "bike" that they can't legally drive on either public roads or a pedestrian way. What's the point of a high performance e-bike in an urban /suburban environment and a country with strict traffic law enforcement?


The beauty of e-bikes, program the controller to have different "modes". There are various ways you can implement this on your bike. You can have 1 button visible that restrict the output to within the limits of your country. So even if you run a hi power motor the output will not be exceeding 250 Watt. You can even set a upper speed limit. Like where I live we have max 25 km/h for e-bikes and then the motor is supposed to cut. Cos you can peddle the bike as fast as possible, but motor must stop power output at max 25 km/h. Then you can have 2 hidden buttons which gives you more ie little more speed while still giving you best range. And finally the "flat out" button that lets you ride the bike the way you really want to. If pulled over, hit button 1 and tell cops to test drive the bike. :)

When questioned about the rather large battery start a tedious, slow and long explaining about battery chemistry, Ohms law, what gain a large amph battery have and how long you get "pedal assist" with your huge battery. Don't be shy to stray off topic every now and then, make sure you fit your mother into the story or your wife. Pretty soon they will be so bored they will let you go :D

chriss said:
So ultimately, I will hopefully end up with two different projects. A slightly overpowered budget bike for city use. Ideally with the option to restrict the motor power to 250w manually if needed. Is this doable?
And an electric motorcycle as a commuter vehicle. As mcribs said, old moto x chassis are available at a fraction of the money of a downhill bike frame. They have great suspension, are more stable at higher speeds, have the space to fill a great amount of battery power (removed motor space) and are legal to use on street with simple modification. And probably more comfy to sit for longer periods. Only drawback is the cost of a high wattage motor and the total amount of batteries required. Yet, still cheaper than the stealth bombers and phasors and in DIY certainly be cheaper than the Zeros and Brammos.

If you are an EU citizen I know for a fact it is rather hard to get plates on a DIY EV conversion. Reason for that is all the testing, engineer statements andthe TÛV approval you will need. It is not impossible but the journey will be time consuming and costly as well. For that reason alone I dropped the whole conversion project. After all with all the time and money spend to get to drive such a e-converted motorcycle I am sure I could get a used Zero of some kind for the same money, ready to ride and approved byt the Motor & Vehicle department.

But if you start that project slow and buy parts whenever you got money to spend it will sure make for a great project and that will be an amazing ride with no noise and no pollution. You could probably ride it in the countryside where all motors vehicles are banned without getting a ticket. Because no one hear you :D


chriss said:
I don't have much of a technical background and plan to start with the bike as a way to get myself familiar. I have an old crappy MTB that must suffice.

Batteries: Will probably use Hobbyking Lipo. Either 6 packs of 6s1P 22.2V for a 44.4V 15AH setup. Or 6 packs of 4S1P 14.8V for a 44.4V 10AH setup. Only cheaper alternative I found is to build the battery packs from used 18650 cells. I know how to solder batteries, but I'm lost with balancing them. So, until I get that knowledge, HK is the best option. Adds up to just $100-$150 for the batteries.

Motor: As I prefer to have no drag when pedaling, a geared motor or mid drive motor seems the way to go. A geared motor would also provide the silence of a bike as a bonus even though I'd prefer the weight distribution of a mid drive. Can anyone recommend a particular brand of geared hub motor? The cheapest I could find is from bmsbattery. But I couldn't find any reviews on it.
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/529-q11-48v1kw-front-driving-hub-motor-e-bike-conversion-kit.html


Can't really give you any pointers here yet as I am learning as well.

chriss said:
Do geared hub motors and mid drive motors produce the same power output? I noticed that cyclone sells mid drives with extremely high wattage (up to 8000w) while I have yet to find a geared hub motor clocked higher than 1K watt.
A setup as described above, to my best knowledge, would produce between 444w and 666w. Why would I even want to consider a motor > 1000w? Can a motor be overclocked and still run reliably? I often read on this board that it is the controller that matters most, not the motor. Say I end up liking my bike so much that I wanted to upgrade the 48V motor to 60V and 25AH (for a 1500w setup) with a better controller. Does that work? Or are geared motors a no go then?

Yes most motors will handle more voltage fairly good. But for safe guard I would be using a motor with temperature probes to monitor heat build up and to prorgam controller to reduce output when temp gets high to avoid burning motor or controller. Geared motors have pro's and cons. They let the motor work in the best possible conditions so that the optimum RPM of the motor is targeted. An RPM where the motor spins with most efficiency. These motors are also much lighter in weight.

Down side is durability and and more prone to overheat.

chriss said:
Charger: No idea yet. Often read that Hyperion EOS is the way to go for Lipos. But there are so many different models available. What's the cheapest one that can handle at least 6 packs simultaneously? I found an
IMAX-B6 for €20 that can do that (assuming that each "pack" counts as a "cell"?) but what else do I need to look for in a charger?

Overall, it looks to me I can put together a usable city ebike for a few hundred $$. Too ambitious?


Charger no clues yet.

Yes you can get a really cheap city bike using your current bike and parts. Adding only batteries, controller and motor. If you will use the city bike mostly within or close to EU rules and regulation you can get lightweight and cheap battery packs. Also you could get a smaller motor, that would also come cheaper.
Maybe you could use like a Magic Pie v4 motor? It has a build in controller. And you can get motor pre laced in a mtb rim.
Just add batteries and BMS and you will be able to ride.

Smart pie v4 in 20" wheel w/throttle

Magic Pie v4 20" wheel w/throttle

I know a few people keep dissing magic pie, but it seems for people that are not looking to get maximum power from a bike these are really among the cheapest ways to do an e-bike, and if you don't overclock or whip the bike to max speed in long steep hills I think they will prove to have plenty of durability. I hear of people that do 4.000 km a year on magic pie bikes and they still run with original motors. But do your research first, cos there are some issues with axel or bearing or something. But if you don't ride like a hooligan it should work just fine.
I think any of these would work well for your city e-bike.
 
The beauty of e-bikes, program the controller to have different "modes". There are various ways you can implement this on your bike. You can have 1 button visible that restrict the output to within the limits of your country. So even if you run a hi power motor the output will not be exceeding 250 Watt. You can even set a upper speed limit. Like where I live we have max 25 km/h for e-bikes and then the motor is supposed to cut. Cos you can peddle the bike as fast as possible, but motor must stop power output at max 25 km/h. Then you can have 2 hidden buttons which gives you more ie little more speed while still giving you best range. And finally the "flat out" button that lets you ride the bike the way you really want to. If pulled over, hit button 1 and tell cops to test drive the bike. :)

I really have some reading to do on controllers. But this is just what I need to disguise the true power . By "program the controller" you mean these modes can be adjusted on the device or would I also need to learn a programming language?

When questioned about the rather large battery start a tedious, slow and long explaining about battery chemistry, Ohms law, what gain a large amph battery have and how long you get "pedal assist" with your huge battery. Don't be shy to stray off topic every now and then, make sure you fit your mother into the story or your wife. Pretty soon they will be so bored they will let you go :D

Good point! An alternative to battery packs would be to use tube batteries. Almost look like water bottles. If disguising the full power of the bike is the goal, that may be the better option. I may get two of them on the frame for longer range or more power. Does anyone know if tube batteries can be connected and if switching from serial to parallel setup may be done with a simple plug solution so that you may choose either more power or more range prior to starting your trip?
For high-power bikes like a stealth bomber, it's not just the look of the bike that will make the police suspicious. How do I explain to them that I need a motorcycle helmet to ride a bike that stops at 25kmh max speed? :|

If you are an EU citizen I know for a fact it is rather hard to get plates on a DIY EV conversion. Reason for that is all the testing, engineer statements andthe TÛV approval you will need. It is not impossible but the journey will be time consuming and costly as well. For that reason alone I dropped the whole conversion project. After all with all the time and money spend to get to drive such a e-converted motorcycle I am sure I could get a used Zero of some kind for the same money, ready to ride and approved byt the Motor & Vehicle department.

I have to do more research here. My plan was to get all the parts together, maybe do the basic setup myself, but let a certified motorcycle engineer do the wiring and approval. If the motorcycle frame had valid papers before the conversion, the TÜV should be OK. It's like converting a combustion engine car to gas-powered drive. If done by a certified provider, the TÜV won't mind.
Having said that, with the first hydogen fuel cell motorcycles hitting mass production, battery technology may already starting to be outdated and over-expensive before even reaching critical mass.

Maybe you could use like a Magic Pie v4 motor? It has a build in controller. And you can get motor pre laced in a mtb rim.

But it's a direct drive motor as far a s I know. And those motors produce a drag when pedaling which I want to avoid.
However, this example from their website looks very good to me. Very unobtrusive. Thanks for pointing this out. Got even more research to do now...
0101.jpg

http://www.goldenmotor.com/

Another interesting motor I just found is from MXUS
http://www.mxusebikekit.com/shop_show.asp?cid=52

Geared Hub Motor
Small size with simple structure, light weight and long life, super power,high efficiency, beautiful,high speed motor with gear, drive is very free and fluent, better for Li-ion battery and e-bike.

Voltage,24V-48V
Specification, 8”-28”
Weight ,3KG
Power, 50w-5000w
Efficiency ≥80%


Just 3kg in weight and freewheel. Good. But 50w-5000w seems like a very wide range to me. Can anyone comment on how realistic this is? Anyone using this motor?

In their "European Market" ebike kit they sell the same motor as 150w-350w? Do they just state the low wattage power to comply with regulations while, in fact, there is much leeway to overpower if desired with the right components? Unfortunately, they don't offer different "American Market" kit version for comparison.

"Euro Market" Kit
Gear motor performance:
Voltage:24V-48V Max speed:25km/h
Power:150w-350w Load:120kg-180kg
Specification:12"-28"(700C) Range:35KM-50KM
Front gear motor support disc brake
Rear gear motor support disc brake and 6-9 speed gears.
http://www.mxusebikekit.com/shop_show.asp?cid=45
 
chriss said:
I really have some reading to do on controllers. But this is just what I need to disguise the true power . By "program the controller" you mean these modes can be adjusted on the device or would I also need to learn a programming language?

If you get CA (cycle analyst) I think it is all a matter of stepping trough a menu and choose accordingly to your needs. Don't think you will need any programming skills.
I have not used one myself so I might be wrong, but that is my understanding of CA so far.

chriss said:
Good point! An alternative to battery packs would be to use tube batteries. Almost look like water bottles. If disguising the full power of the bike is the goal, that may be the better option. I may get two of them on the frame for longer range or more power. Does anyone know if tube batteries can be connected and if switching from serial to parallel setup may be done with a simple plug solution so that you may choose either more power or more range prior to starting your trip?
For high-power bikes like a stealth bomber, it's not just the look of the bike that will make the police suspicious. How do I explain to them that I need a motorcycle helmet to ride a bike that stops at 25kmh max speed? :|

Yo ride with that helmet cos your dog ate your tiny bikecycle helmet, or your son took it. And your wife made you use that motorcycle helmet :) Be creative.
Those waterbotttle batteries should be possible to hook up as many as you like and in either serial or parallel. But doing a "quick switch" just before the police pull you over, I don't know. Maybe feasible to do some kind of "jumper cables". Like switch a couple of plugs into another. But that would mean twice the wires and twice the trouble. And what if you forget what hook up you use when charging?

I wouldn't worry too much about disguising the batteries. Just say you like long rides and got a great deal for a used pack. As long as they can not reach maximum power if they decide to do a "test drive" you will be fine. Never heard anyone that have had the bike taken apart for a thorough inspection of how the batteries are connected. And even if so, tell then point out that you have never done any "electrical work" before and you might have made mistakes with a few plugs.

Make your CA do the work for you and have hidden buttons for the two more powerfull settings.


chriss said:
I have to do more research here. My plan was to get all the parts together, maybe do the basic setup myself, but let a certified motorcycle engineer do the wiring and approval. If the motorcycle frame had valid papers before the conversion, the TÜV should be OK. It's like converting a combustion engine car to gas-powered drive. If done by a certified provider, the TÜV won't mind.
Having said that, with the first hydogen fuel cell motorcycles hitting mass production, battery technology may already starting to be outdated and over-expensive before even reaching critical mass.

The thing is here in Norway and at least central Europe is that when you do make changes to an engine for more power or a different power source, ie batteries you have made significant changes to the EU valid approval given for a certain motorcycle brand and type. For example. You have a Yamaha R1. Engine is shot. Too expensive to repair. You dismantle the engine, gearbox etc from the frame and put in electrical motor and battery. According to the approval this is no longer a valid R1. You now have a bike without department of vehicles approval. Those rules are the same in all of EU and EØS. But different countries might "read" the guidelines and regulations differently and you might get lucky in your country. But if the follow the low books the the letter you will need testing from an approved and unbiased test facility. Usually TÜV will hold water. But anything "bigger" then a moped will be prone to have more documentation and more testing and paperworks to document everything is within limits and rules.

Rule of thumb, moped is doable to get plates for in EU. Motorcycles with more then double that cost and will require much more tests and much more certifications. If you meet a true dick you might even need to supply a crash test, which mean you will need to build two similar bikes and crash one of them. It is not impossible but the EU sure make it as close to impossible as they can. :) There are a few bikes here on the forum with EU moped plates. Can go up to 45 kmh within the rules. Have never seen any EU electric converted motorcycle getting plates here. Maybe you are the first?



chriss said:
But it's a direct drive motor as far a s I know. And those motors produce a drag when pedaling which I want to avoid.
However, this example from their website looks very good to me. Very unobtrusive. Thanks for pointing this out. Got even more research to do now...
0101.jpg

http://www.goldenmotor.com/

Another interesting motor I just found is from MXUS
http://www.mxusebikekit.com/shop_show.asp?cid=52

Geared Hub Motor
Small size with simple structure, light weight and long life, super power,high efficiency, beautiful,high speed motor with gear, drive is very free and fluent, better for Li-ion battery and e-bike.

Voltage,24V-48V
Specification, 8”-28”
Weight ,3KG
Power, 50w-5000w
Efficiency ≥80%


Just 3kg in weight and freewheel. Good. But 50w-5000w seems like a very wide range to me. Can anyone comment on how realistic this is? Anyone using this motor?

In their "European Market" ebike kit they sell the same motor as 150w-350w? Do they just state the low wattage power to comply with regulations while, in fact, there is much leeway to overpower if desired with the right components? Unfortunately, they don't offer different "American Market" kit version for comparison.

"Euro Market" Kit
Gear motor performance:
Voltage:24V-48V Max speed:25km/h
Power:150w-350w Load:120kg-180kg
Specification:12"-28"(700C) Range:35KM-50KM
Front gear motor support disc brake
Rear gear motor support disc brake and 6-9 speed gears.
http://www.mxusebikekit.com/shop_show.asp?cid=45


Yes that is a light motor. Don't know that motor or company so can't say much. Maybe other will pitch in and help you on that geared hub motor.
AFIK the drag is overrated and not that noticeable. And for the most part you will not be pedaling solely. You will have pedal assist or rely only on motor.

I am not biased towards Magic Pie/Smart I just see them as a cheap and fast way of getting a decent e-bike. With a little leeway to up the voltage if needed. For a primary bike I might have chosen another light weight motor. But for a city e-bike I think those will be ok. They are complete and ready to run. Controller all build in.

Yeah the watt is based on the voltage input to the motor. Feed motor low voltage, get little watt out. Go higher and motor will spin faster and produce more watt. The manufacturer are in the clear, as they have sold the motor "within" regulations. The "over clocking" is on you so to say.
I stand corrected. I was wrong on that previous italic statement. Turns out as Volt * amps = watt. So by lowering Volt you will lower the RPM and watt, but if you need to really lower power then you might restrict Volt as well as amps to get street legal

I think the American model usually are like 750 watts. Basically often the very same motor, but the sell it as a higher voltage motor.


I bid you all the best with your build and I am sorry I can not give you first hand advices as I am new to the e-bikes myself. I have however tried to share what I've learned and picked up over that past month or so.
 
Feed motor low voltage, get little watt out. Go higher and motor will spin faster and produce more watt.
Watts out are defined as Volts * Amps. 50v * 10a = 500W 25v * 20a = 500W 12.5V * 40a = 500W.

Voltage dictates motor speed, defined as RPM per volt or Kv. Motor shaft RPM is used in defining reduction in order to turn bike wheel in the range desired. Kv of 100 at 50v = 5000 rpm, 200 at 25v = 5000 rpm. Direct drive is 1:1 while a common ratio is around 10:1. Average ebike motor running at 3000rpm at 10:1 puts 26" wheel rpm at 300 which is about 20 mph.

A fundamental performance constraint is motor heat, heavily attributed to amps fed to the motor. Generally, most motors operate with max continuous amperage of around 30. Running motors continuously over this generates excessive heat meaning motor failure. An improperly specified ESC also starts overheating and going poof. Of course, less capable motors can melt at lower thresholds.

Seems simple right? Unfortunately, it is more involved than doing math and designing a 1500w system. There are loads of motor performance profile and curves that need to be considered throughout the design. These factors make component selection critical and also highly integrated to the entire drive system.

The next rung on the learning ladder for me is to better understand motor efficiency. Most motors show increasing efficiency as rpms increase. The power curve does not parallel this so there are different values to extract the maximum characteristic. This is where hub motors are not as capable as adjustable drive systems. Hubs are designed to operate at a fixed ratio so less flexible in operation.

I believe the primary reason hub drives are the most chosen is due to the minimization of various design considerations. It is virtually an all in one solution. If one uses a 26" wheel then everything is baked in and standardized. If used in a less standard size like 24" or 20" then maybe a bit less AIO but still by far the simplest solution to get running.

So now let's go shopping for a hub. You commute daily so you want an efficient system. On the road, you generally want to run at 18mph but want the ability to run faster on open roads so the system needs to be designed to handle more continuous power. At 18mph the system uses 50% of continuous max. Is a hub motor running at higher volts more efficient that the one running at lower volts? For example, do you select a 72v, 48v or a 36v hub? Remember, power (watts) is volts * amps so the battery system is configured using the same cells/packs to accommodate the required voltage. Use 500w as the target power required to run at 18mph. Currently, my thinking gets muddled on this as I stare at various motor performance curves. Maybe after more staring or input from you folks it will become clearer :D

Hang in there, plenty to learn and absorb.
 
Yes. The existing gear system remains as is as long as the hub can accept your gear cluster then all should be good. I have not installed one so I am not sure if there are alignment issues but I suspect the hub kits are designed to just spin on the cluster. Also you would want to double check the axle width is compatible with the bike frame. I read about the need to spread the drop out so a wheel will fit; not sure how applicable it is to off the shelf hub setups but just put on the checklist before writing checks. Lastly, if the frame might need to be spread there are extra precautions if the frame is alloy rather than steel.

Back to bike train and hub config. I live in USA and in an area where popo is got going to give two shats about an ebile so I don't pay attention to the unique challenges for riders in Europe. I do believe there is a legal requirement for PAS and no pure throttle so you would need to pedal anyway. Not sure how that even works with a rear hub. Many here have more specifics on this.

Either way, any positive pressure you apply will add to the power to the wheel so you get a boost, although continuous human power makes a difference only at slower speeds. Recently I was riding a steep incline at just over 20mph, backed off the throttle and the pedals felt like a ton of cement dropped on them. It was like the bike just hit a wall. No matter how hard you peddle when the bike is cranking over 2k watts, the assistance is inconsequential.
 
Does anyone ride anymore?

Slap together a 500W kit for now, get out there enjoy the ride and plan out your dream build while on those lovely rides. What's that Einstein quote 'I thought of that while riding my bicycle' sic Theory of relativity
 
You know for us DIY addicts planning and building is almost as satisfying as riding. See a problem or a challenge and start to work out ways to solve it, learning new stuff, reading up on topics you never knew anything about. It is exciting. And then when one has harvested enough wisdom one can start shopping and building. It is a process but that is also half the fun. :D
 
macribs said:
You know for us DIY addicts planning and building is almost as satisfying as riding. See a problem or a challenge and start to work out ways to solve it, learning new stuff, reading up on topics you never knew anything about. It is exciting. And then when one has harvested enough wisdom one can start shopping and building. It is a process but that is also half the fun. :D

That's an enjoyable process which shouldn't get in the way of riding.
Masturbation can't turn you into a porn star.

I have my competition grade DH bike with one of one custom 24Fet controller hooked up to Aspec RC lipo, but at the end of the day I'm always happy I've got a pedelec that just....... works!

BPM 500W, 6Fet sensorless and 48V of something battery will keep you smiling until you make one that gives you that half grin half ah shit I'm going to die look
 
macribs said:
You know for us DIY addicts planning and building is almost as satisfying as riding. See a problem or a challenge and start to work out ways to solve it, learning new stuff, reading up on topics you never knew anything about. It is exciting. And then when one has harvested enough wisdom one can start shopping and building. It is a process but that is also half the fun. :D

I enjoy "making" but riding is the REASON I spend time in shop. Learning anything is fun and if not eBikes it would be something else.

Bugs me like the guy in another thread who proclaimed "anybody" can throw shit together, blah, blah, blah. "Anybody" can't. Even an ugly mess of tie-wraps and DIY vibe requires some level of skill & knowledge to put together a bike that can actually be ridden daily. For some of us, riding daily is the primary point.
 
One thing I still can not understand is the batteries. In this thread it seems people are in general against the use of Lifepo4 batteries.
Yet the main part of ready made hi performance e-bikes are sold with just Lifepo4. And we know both Stealth bikes perform well.
It seems some well known Allex in this forum swapped batteries on his bomber but still uses lifepo4 pouches. But higher voltage. (have still not found his build thread so I don't know this to be certain but so I've been told)
And I've seen many a builds here that uses Cromotors or other hi performance motor while still using Lifepo4.

Ok, lifepo4 got lower C rate then Lico. But lets look at the positive side of lifepo4 batteries.

-Longer life time means they are money saver
-Safer to use the Lico's and can probably be charged without supervision
-Widely available from various vendors and sites means good prices.

Let's take an example. E-bike running cromotor. 96v 15Ah.



Will lifepo4 impact performance and what parameters would change if one switches from Lico to Lifepo4?

I've been playing with the e-bike simulator, but what I think should be possible to add in there was the chemistry of batteries. That way we could see a graph showing us the difference for each motor, battery pack and chemistry.

Does such a simulator exist on other sites maybe?
 
Hi mac,

Batteries can be confusing. I am still on the fence lipo vs Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4).

Longer life time means they are money saver - They do have better longevity but do cost more and weigh more (i.e less power/weight) than liPo. I have not done the math to see over the long haul which is less costly. LiPo offers more power per weight; i.e. lighter for same capacity.

liPo generally offers higher C rating, so in very high demand systems, this may be the better choice. For example if you plan on pulling 100 to 150 amps, higher C of lipo allows you to get there.

-Safer to use the Lico's and can probably be charged without supervision - Correct. LiPo setups are more prone to fire and other such potentially hazardous incidents.

-Widely available from various vendors and sites means good prices. It seems to me there are plenty of sources for either LiPo or LiFePO4.

For me the simple formulas on batteries is volts * amps = overall capacity. example 50v * 15a = 750watts. Your usual cruise profile draws 30 w/h means you get about 25 mile range, probably less due to stopping before you run too low on voltage.

Then there is C rating. If you ride at the battery rate (1c) of 15a at 50v sends 750 watts to the motor. If you want to got WOT and your motor/controller is sized properly you you can send 3000 watts to the motor at 50v * 15*4(c). Continuous C rating is something you just need to factor into your design no differently than all the other factors.

Maybe Google on battery chemistry if you are interested. There are batteries even lighter than LiPo but it is not seen much here; maybe due to cost or other less desirable traits.
 
Someone please help me with controller configuration.

Say I wanted to go with a 48V 1000w motor setup (I haven't made a decision yet). I know that it is crucial to select a matching controller to avoid overheating in peak time demand. A 48V 20A (=960w) controller just seems in balance with the motor while a 48V 25A controller (or higher) may draw too much current.

So here is my question: How does the battery setup play into this? Do I need at least the same capacity (AH) in the battery as the controller may draw at peak time? So, in the 48V 1000w motor with a 20A controller I would at least have to have a 20AH battery setup? Is that correct :?
 
mac,

18650 li-ion cells may be another battery option to consider

- Safer than lipo
- Cheaper than lifepo4
- Can be configured in any form or shape
- With 700 cycles they are less enduring than lifepo4, but after at least 3 years of continuous use I would probably want to switch to the then next generation of batteries anyway. So the longevity of lifepo4 may not be an advantage after all.
 
Back
Top