One motor on a two wheel trailer?

FluxZoom

100 W
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Messages
107
Location
Midwest, USA
Hello,

Having one motor connected to one wheel on a two wheeled push trailer, terrible idea? The implementation I have in mind is peaks of 5-10kw hauling things.

Thanks
 
That's a lot of power. What will it be attached to?

Here's a guy who made one, and I can think of another that used a hubmotor.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2798
 
If you have enough weight on the trailer to ensure no wheel slip, then the motor could be effective.

Depending on the trailer and hitch design, and possibly how the trailer is loaded, the trailer may push in a non-straight line. It may be easy to compensate, or it may not, depending on how it is all set up, and your terrain and road/trail conditions. You'll probably have to try it out to see.


I used one-wheel drive (right side) on Delta Tripper trike, and it was "ok" in that it was easily controllable, but never tried it on the trailer.

On SB Cruiser trike, I usually use both motors (left and right) to startup, but often use just one (usually the more powerful right) to cruise. Depending on load, terrain, conditions, etc., sometimes it's not as easy to control as it usually is, and sometimes I have to use the other motor to help steer rather than the actual front wheel steering.

It's only a third of the power you're talking about, but I expect it'd be similar for yours.


I expect the same would be true with a pusher trailer. Someday I'll get all the stuff together in one place, with the time to implement it, and actually get the pusher stuff onto one of the dog-kennel trailers.
 
FluxZoom said:
Having one motor connected to one wheel on a two wheeled push trailer, terrible idea? The implementation I have in mind is peaks of 5-10kw hauling things.

I think that could work OK (put the motor closest to behind the hitch, if there is any asymmetry), but wouldn't it be easier to get 5 to 10kW out of two motors? I mean, in terms of cooling, availability and cost of controllers, and using cheap commodity motors.
 
gogo said:
That's a lot of power. What will it be attached to?

Here's a guy who made one, and I can think of another that used a hubmotor.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2798

Thanks for the reply, very important line of thought. I'd use a tadpole trike if using a single motor push trailer, don't want to get knocked over.

Thanks so much for sharing that thread link you went out of your way to find, bravo! I've skimmed that thread and lots of other threads and was going to ask this question to rossfree (OP for that thread) but he hasn't been here since 2012.

amberwolf said:
If you have enough weight on the trailer to ensure no wheel slip, then the motor could be effective.

Depending on the trailer and hitch design, and possibly how the trailer is loaded, the trailer may push in a non-straight line. It may be easy to compensate, or it may not, depending on how it is all set up, and your terrain and road/trail conditions. You'll probably have to try it out to see.


I used one-wheel drive (right side) on Delta Tripper trike, and it was "ok" in that it was easily controllable, but never tried it on the trailer.

On SB Cruiser trike, I usually use both motors (left and right) to startup, but often use just one (usually the more powerful right) to cruise. Depending on load, terrain, conditions, etc., sometimes it's not as easy to control as it usually is, and sometimes I have to use the other motor to help steer rather than the actual front wheel steering.

It's only a third of the power you're talking about, but I expect it'd be similar for yours.


I expect the same would be true with a pusher trailer. Someday I'll get all the stuff together in one place, with the time to implement it, and actually get the pusher stuff onto one of the dog-kennel trailers.

I really appreciate your input, your insight and experience is very interesting. Thank you for sharing your time and thoughts with me.

My goal is to replace the need to ever rent a truck, car or trailer to carry large and heavy loads. This entails being able to carry things like long beams of steel, lumber and even sheets of drywall. Likely a foolish goal but I suspect it's one I can achieve with careful planning and clever approaches combined with a modular telescoping trailer design. With that in mind, I am not so sure about the idea of the placement of a single driving wheel in a two wheeled trailer, I suspect the driving wheel will be pretty much far from the center of a trike it is pushing. Meaning chances are slanted or dragging wheels might be an issue to consider.

Chalo said:
I think that could work OK (put the motor closest to behind the hitch, if there is any asymmetry), but wouldn't it be easier to get 5 to 10kW out of two motors? I mean, in terms of cooling, availability and cost of controllers, and using cheap commodity motors.

It's a great and important question, thanks for asking it, and one I don't really know the answer to. I've done some looking around, most of the information I've gathered so far mainly pertains to hub motors, non-hub motors is definitely something I need to look at closely and populate a spreadsheet with. Data like weight and cost to power ratios are something I am focusing on. It sometimes seems like maybe one is cheaper than another, depending on the combination of parts to look at, but like I said I haven't done a crazy amount of looking into this yet to say confidently. Setting up one motor over two doesn't seem like a trivial task though along with the worries of issues arising. It could be seen that two motors are redundancy and lower cost, or greater chances of trouble, more complexity and cost, don't know for sure though. I should have known the answer to this question prior to starting this thread but it's something that isn't easy to know with certainty and I still am not really confident in the possibility of considering using a single motor. When I consider the idea of the trailer constantly trying to push itself in a slanted direction and sort of dragging itself and making handling in general a headache at best I imagine it wouldn't be worth the single motor approach even if it was to a benefit, but this is still something of a mystery to me. If you think having the motor far from centered behind a trike will be a large issue then perhaps I will ignore this route, I hadn't really strongly considered placing the wheel centered as this would cause the load (sometimes fairly wide) to need to be far off to one side (which would probably be an issue for many routes) but now that I consider this train of thought it seems illuminating if I understand things well.

Considering the idea of having the trailer to carry very long things like perhaps 8-12 foot long items it might end up that the desire or ability for the trailer to want to turn could be a bit much. I imagine, but don't know, that a longer trailer having motor further from it's main point of resistance might add more of what I imagine to be something like a fulcrum, hard to explain and I am probably pretty far off base from reality.
 
FluxZoom said:
Considering the idea of having the trailer to carry very long things like perhaps 8-12 foot long items it might end up that the desire or ability for the trailer to want to turn could be a bit much. I imagine, but don't know, that a longer trailer having motor further from it's main point of resistance might add more of what I imagine to be something like a fulcrum, hard to explain and I am probably pretty far off base from reality.

The further back the drive wheel, the less of an angle with the centerline of travel? I'd think a delta trike would be better to hitch to than a two-wheeler. The rear wheels of the trike might need to be stout enough for any side-loads, though.

On two-wheelers you want the hitch as close to the contact patch as possible. The ideal would be a force sensing hitch that would control trailer drive and braking with turn angle taken into consideration.
 
When you look at sidecars-- which are analogous to the kind of trailer you're proposing-- then yes, there are some handling issues. But they're not insurmountable. Basically, a sidecar rig tends to steer towards the sidecar when on the power, and tends to steer away from the sidecar when braking. That's for a sidecar motorcycle with a free-pivoting front wheel. An offset trailer would feed those "steering" forces into the hitch, which might or might not result in any perceptible steering effects at all. If you're hitching to a delta trike, it might be worthwhile to have the choice of a centered hitch and one that's offset as much as possible in the opposite direction of the offset in the trailer tongue. Then you can choose whichever one works better for a given load and road conditions.

I recommend using relatively small diameter wheels. 16" wheelbarrow wheels are an excellent choice-- cheap, easy to find, relatively low rolling resistance, and load rated usually 400 lbs each. I wouldn't use anything bigger than 20" freestyle wheels in any case. That way, you can put a top rail on your trailer that will allow large flat loads like plywood or drywall to sit on the trailer's frame without the trailer having to be so wide that the sheets can fit between the wheels, or so high that the rig becomes unstable. And then the rail can help hold in smaller items or containers.

For various reasons, it's a very good idea to keep your trailer narrower than a pickup truck. I built my heavy trailer so that I could pull it through a common 36 inch doorway when necessary, which means it also easily clears bike path bollards that are often spaced 1m apart. Wider is better when you turn the speeds up, but keep in mind that the larger a load you carry, the slower you are likely to go to avoid upsetting it.
 
I generally agree with being able to keep the trailer narrow, but if like me you generally use roads rather than bike paths for large cargo, wider can sometimes be better (in that cars tend to be more likely to give me the lane if I am already taking up more of it). :)

If you need larger diameter wheels for whatever reason (like in my case to help with ride quality and ability to pull the loaded trailer over bad pavement, curbs, etc, that smaller diameter wheels would cause me problems with (or altogether prevent me from going over/thru)), but also need it to be low-slung, you could build the trailer like my new Mk IV flatbed kennel trailer linked in my signature.

The catch with a long, but low, trailer is that anything other than a flat road can be problematic, unless there are some sort of wheels or casters at the end of the trailer away from the main wheels to prevent the frame from dragging on the ground or curb, etc. I've been pondering ways to deal with that for my trailer, becuase I'm still working out a larger/longer (but low) version of it for carrying building materials, furniture, etc., instead of just St Bernards. ;)

Even at it's relatively short length, it still has that trouble with curbs/driveways sometimes.


FluxZoom said:
My goal is to replace the need to ever rent a truck, car or trailer to carry large and heavy loads. This entails being able to carry things like long beams of steel, lumber and even sheets of drywall. Likely a foolish goal
I don't see why it'd be foolish; there's a guy near Copenhagen with a pedal-only longbike (bakfiet type) that can carry full sheets of plywood, full-length wood beams, etc.

There's at least one trailer larger than any of mine here on ES posted in the last few months, made to carry at least two full bikes on it; I forget whose it is though. :/

I have a thread titled "Barkfiet" (something or other) that is about my Loooooooongbike I'd like to someday build (just for the heck of it if ntohing else), though by the time I do get aroud to it it'll probably be a leaning trike with a narrow double-wheel front end just enough to hold it up when stopped/loading.



but I suspect it's one I can achieve with careful planning and clever approaches combined with a modular telescoping trailer design.
I have some ideas in that telescoping stuff, in that Barkfiet thread.


With that in mind, I am not so sure about the idea of the placement of a single driving wheel in a two wheeled trailer, I suspect the driving wheel will be pretty much far from the center of a trike it is pushing. Meaning chances are slanted or dragging wheels might be an issue to consider.
Honestly, I think that given the power levels you're after, it's going to be cheaper *and* easier to just use two powered wheels on it, one on each side.

I doubt the problems in operating it with unbalanced pushing would be very bad, I think you could learn to deal with that with just a little practice in the various sitautions you'd encoutner it in, as I have on my trikes.

But it'll be just be cheaper to go with two small motors and controllers than one big one.

It'll also be "safer", because you'll have redundancy--if one fails for any reason, you stil lhave half your power to be able to push along, rather than having ot pedal your entire load. ;)

That's really why I have two on the trike, and two on the bike--I'm not really capable of pedalling the kind of loads I have to move around (or the vehicles I use to move them!). :oops: So if something failed, I'd be totally screwed if I had no backup. A few months back, I proved that to myself the hard way, when I ran out of battery power on the trike a few miles from home; had to veerrry slooowwwly pedal it, with rest stops, till I got to where I could charge it a bit (and rest before I passed out from the pain and the effort), at the breakroom at work that hapepend to be on my way back home.




As for the other points, about the problems with pushing one-sided vs length and load, you'd really ahve to try it out to see...but I'd persoanlly just avoid the problem and do a motor on each side just for the reasons listed above. :)
 
The guy who owns this company lives in my city and I see his trailers in action hauling 4X8 sheets of material.
http://www.bikesatwork.com/bike-trailers

Have you tried google searchs for bicycle trailers?
 
I pull the trailer, hub motor on rear wheel of recumbant trike works fine up Colorado hills even with 14.5 foot kayak and gear.

recumbant_kayak.jpg

More on build: http://renewableenergyspace.blogspot.com/2014/10/new-transportation-etrike-by-joseph.html

Thanks for Endlesssphere!
 
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