Qulbix Raptor 140
- Thread starter Mammalian04
- Start date
Mammalian04
100 kW
Thanks for the link Jay. I have subscribed.
Re: pegs - The pegs were a major factor in my decision of the Raptor. David at Phasor Cycles said pegs and a moto seat were being considered but Qulbix seemed to have momentum for the R&D to get it done. That being said, I didn't expect the peg option to be part of a new model only. Good thing I delayed my purchase until the Raptor 140 was ready.
Re: pegs - The pegs were a major factor in my decision of the Raptor. David at Phasor Cycles said pegs and a moto seat were being considered but Qulbix seemed to have momentum for the R&D to get it done. That being said, I didn't expect the peg option to be part of a new model only. Good thing I delayed my purchase until the Raptor 140 was ready.
I think stronger steel is being used (max tension of 1200N/mm2) so maybe they were able to go with a thinner gauge (the later part is just my speculation).Offroader said:
Hyena
10 GW
It's a little narrower so that saves a small amount but the main saving is in that they're using different steel, stronger than cromo so as Mammalian said presumably thinner than the old (mild steel ?) construction.Offroader said:
OK here's the last bit of info finally out for public release
Those numbers I was sitting on, the frame is 20-25% lighter!
Look at opening for storage space - it's cavernous! The larger battery door being aluminium probably saves a few extra grams as well.
interessting.
complete website only about 140er Raptor...
No Spare PArts to order for the 160er Frame?
No Chance to have a choice to buy the 160er Frame....
looks like in the near future you can buy some raptors from the "i must have all new stuff" community
140mm....iam not sure if it is better or the worst case for lipo users
complete website only about 140er Raptor...
No Spare PArts to order for the 160er Frame?
No Chance to have a choice to buy the 160er Frame....
looks like in the near future you can buy some raptors from the "i must have all new stuff" community
140mm....iam not sure if it is better or the worst case for lipo users
Like I have been saying, these guys really know what they are doing and put a lot of thought into their bikes. The 165 frame was outstanding and they got the geometry right. It looks like they put a lot of modifications into this new frame.
You're probably better off going with the 140 and building your own lipo pack from cells rather than using lipo packs. I think you will be able to fill the frame a lot easier with cells and have more variety in the type of packs you can build. I honestly never looked into building a cell pack so I am unsure of how they compare with packs in performance/cost/weight.
It kind of makes me want to build another raptor with the 140. It's too bad that these raptor frames are built so well that they will probably last forever. I also have no issues with the 165.
You're probably better off going with the 140 and building your own lipo pack from cells rather than using lipo packs. I think you will be able to fill the frame a lot easier with cells and have more variety in the type of packs you can build. I honestly never looked into building a cell pack so I am unsure of how they compare with packs in performance/cost/weight.
It kind of makes me want to build another raptor with the 140. It's too bad that these raptor frames are built so well that they will probably last forever. I also have no issues with the 165.
Hyena
10 GW
I have a new complete 165 frame on hand, up for grabs to the first buyer who wants the last of the 165sMerlin said:
I think Qulbix are focusing all their energy on this new model but I'm sure there'll still be parts available for the 165. I think the swing arms are interchangable so really it's only the main body and the bash guard. That could be a cheaper upgrade path too for those that want the new hotness.
Give me a few months and I hope to have a 'Hyena Spec' Raptor that I think will appeal to many :wink:
Rix
100 TW
I am partial to Stealth, but damn, the Raptor guys are listening!. I made the comment about initially offering a 165mm wide swingarm for big motors, then I said if the frame was 140mm wide, I would get one. Now, it looks like I will be getting one and building it up this fall or winter, since making my own frame is turning out to be as much fun as a barrel for shit. Jay, do you know if we can get a complete Raptor frame with no finish? I mean just welded up.
Rick
Rick
Hyena
10 GW
Yes there's much more involved than you might first think isn't there!Rix said:
I've been prototyping my own design for around 2 years now and various iterations later I'm still not totally happy nor have anything ready for production. That's why I've decided to go with the raptor frames, they tick all the boxes, atleast for a large/long range/high powered format. I will still push on with my stealthier, slimmed down ebike design but as I've said before, every man needs more than 1 ebike to meet all his needs
I'm sure something could be arranged especially early on in the production schedule like this. The issue is that being steel it will quickly start to get surface rust if left untreated. It's nothing that a rub over with some steel wool wouldn't sort out but yeah, it's something to consider. A light soda blast might even be the best course of action if you're not going to get to it straight away.
Either way we can discuss this more over PM as we have been doing about these raptor developments
And on that note, while I'm the official distributor of these frames in Australia I'm also happy to help out with any support/special requests from the US and UK too given you have no dealers or local support there.
Qulbix has a number of dealers in Europe now so people in those areas should go through their nearest dealer but if I can help the ES community elsewhere I'm more than happy to do so. I'm 'one of you' first and foremost
competitions
100 W
ELETRIC ?
Hyena, maybe you could speak with torques bikes about making a rear mudguard like the one offered by Quigley motorsports but wraps around the tire more in the rear so the tip of the tire doesn't fling mud up. I think they would do a good job and make it for a reasonable price.
Unless you like the raw metal look (rat rod?), I recommend you save yourself a lot of effort and order it in primer. You will save the cost of the paint (assuming you want to paint it yourself), but it will likely arrive with a rash of rust over the whole frame. Just a thought...
Hyena
10 GW
Offroader said:
Good idea. At the least something that protects the shock from being showered in mud and water would be a good idea (and easier to build and structurally support)
marcn
100 W
Hyena said:I have a new complete 165 frame on hand, up for grabs to the first buyer who wants the last of the 165sMerlin said:
I think Qulbix are focusing all their energy on this new model but I'm sure there'll still be parts available for the 165. I think the swing arms are interchangable so really it's only the main body and the bash guard. That could be a cheaper upgrade path too for those that want the new hotness.
Give me a few months and I hope to have a 'Hyena Spec' Raptor that I think will appeal to many :wink:
haha, is this Mr Dark Knights? He has the upgrade jingles! Do you know when the 140's are expected for production?
Rix
100 TW
spinningmagnets said:
As always SM, you are correct and it would arrive with a nice rust film I am sure. Its just that I live exactly 1 mile away fromt he best powder coaters in the western states of the US, I can get it finished in any color I want. Got to go with some kind of green. Maybe some cosmolene coating just to keep it rust free. The other option is having to remove the paint for refinishing which is a bunch of extra steps I want to avoid.
Yep, alot harder than I thought it would be. Makes me appreciate what you are trying to do and what Drunk Skunk had accomplished.
baja ebiker
100 µW
so i know a bunch of you guys have been looking at this new frames battery compartment. What are some of the pack options with the new 140 mm width. I know that the original 160 mm width was designed with lipo in mind specifically rc lipo packs. What are some of the options for this new frame ? looking for something dense and simple. Not afraid of lipo just seeing if these new dimensions help for other chemistrys. So lets go guys what can we fit in this thing ? Cause its my birthday in 3 days and I know what I want.
Mammalian04
100 kW
These were my thoughts for the 140 using 18650 cells.
22s10p
22s12p
22s10p
22s12p
Hyena
10 GW
I calculated this out just an hour ago when someone else asked me.
Your options are pretty much either lipo or 18650 and I'm leaning towards the later given how much better the tech is getting these days.
For a straight slot in battery the dimensions are 200x300x140mm. If you want to play battery tetris you could probably get a little more.
For lipo you can work out the pack dimensions you want to use and see what will fit.
20C turnigy 5S 5ah packs for example are 149x48x42mm
So you'll fit them 3 wide (126mm) x 4 high (192mm) and 2 long (298mm) That's 24 packs or 30ah @ 20S/74v an a nice easy config that you can easily slip straight in.
Or if you want to mix it up you could run 2x5S + 1x6S wide (134mm) x 4 high x 2 long. This would give you 40ah @ 16S/60v which would be good for a moderate speed offroader or well paired with a faster wind motor.
Or another config which I reckon might be nice is 21S5P (78v/25ah) with an internal controller.
For 18650 you can easily slot in a 300 cell pack.
At 20S that's 15P and with 2.9ah cells that's a whopping 43ah.
Even using 3C rated cells like the 29E that's still a pack capable of delivering 130 amps which is pretty sweet. Beyond that you're starting to piss alot of it away as wasted heat.
Alternatively, go for something like the 25Rs for a 37ah pack and see how quickly you can melt your motor with a pack capable of delivering 370A
The raptor allows you to go large but as I always remind people a big battery is going to add alot of weight.
A bare 29E weighs 45g. Lets very conservatively say 50g with tabs and wiring - a 300 cell pack is still going to weigh 15kg+
Your options are pretty much either lipo or 18650 and I'm leaning towards the later given how much better the tech is getting these days.
For a straight slot in battery the dimensions are 200x300x140mm. If you want to play battery tetris you could probably get a little more.
For lipo you can work out the pack dimensions you want to use and see what will fit.
20C turnigy 5S 5ah packs for example are 149x48x42mm
So you'll fit them 3 wide (126mm) x 4 high (192mm) and 2 long (298mm) That's 24 packs or 30ah @ 20S/74v an a nice easy config that you can easily slip straight in.
Or if you want to mix it up you could run 2x5S + 1x6S wide (134mm) x 4 high x 2 long. This would give you 40ah @ 16S/60v which would be good for a moderate speed offroader or well paired with a faster wind motor.
Or another config which I reckon might be nice is 21S5P (78v/25ah) with an internal controller.
For 18650 you can easily slot in a 300 cell pack.
At 20S that's 15P and with 2.9ah cells that's a whopping 43ah.
Even using 3C rated cells like the 29E that's still a pack capable of delivering 130 amps which is pretty sweet. Beyond that you're starting to piss alot of it away as wasted heat.
Alternatively, go for something like the 25Rs for a 37ah pack and see how quickly you can melt your motor with a pack capable of delivering 370A
The raptor allows you to go large but as I always remind people a big battery is going to add alot of weight.
A bare 29E weighs 45g. Lets very conservatively say 50g with tabs and wiring - a 300 cell pack is still going to weigh 15kg+
baja ebiker
100 µW
hell yeah thats what im talking about. what is the estimated cost and pack density difference per layout ?
baja ebiker
100 µW
sorry hyena we posted at the same time what is price difference. I'm looking to build a straight up offroad e moto with this thing and go moto seat and pegs. no pedals for now. would like to rip it through the desert for 1-2 hrs. not too concerned about weight as i have no intention of pedaling this thing.
Mammalian04
100 kW
Thanks Jay. Am I just wasting space by calculating with the interlocking spacers?
You are also convincing me on dropping from 22s to 20s with all this talk of heat the last few days... I don't need the speed from the extra voltage and with packs this big, it doesn't sound like I will be able to use the extra Amps from the 29E anyway.
One interesting idea I am playing with though is being able to take half the pack out (22s6p or 20s7p) and run a lighter weight bike when I don't need mega amphours.
You are also convincing me on dropping from 22s to 20s with all this talk of heat the last few days... I don't need the speed from the extra voltage and with packs this big, it doesn't sound like I will be able to use the extra Amps from the 29E anyway.
One interesting idea I am playing with though is being able to take half the pack out (22s6p or 20s7p) and run a lighter weight bike when I don't need mega amphours.
marcn
100 W
The 29E 21S12P pack we had built came in at 13.356kg to be precise. It's bloody heavy. At 20S15P, thats over 16kg. What a big mumma. When we trialled a soft spring chamber with a 13kg weight to act as a dummy battery in the belly, we had severe braking sag. We had to upgrade to a much stiffer chamber. I wonder how the rear shock and front shock will feel under full braking with an extra 3kg.
Something to consider.
Something to consider.
I wouldn't worry about the weight of the pack. My pack of 24 6s 5000 packs (18s8p) weighs 40 pounds (18.15 kg). Going from 15 6s packs to 24 6s packs added 15lbs (6.8kg) of extra weight and it only took me one ride to get used to the extra weight then after that I didn't even notice the weight. Right now at 40lbs (18.15kg) my handling of the bike is just as good as when my battery weighed 25 lbs. (6.8kg).
Surprisingly, when adding the extra 15lbs of batteries, I couldn't even feel the difference easily of the added weight. The only way to notice was that my driving and handling the bike was off a little.
My point is that you're better off adding the extra batteries and not worry about weight. The frame is strong enough that the battery weight doesn't make the bike wobbly or anything or effect handling. You won't notice the weight after your body learns how to handle the bike and the advantage of having the extra batteries is well worth it.
If you're going to off-road the bike and want to change battery capacity often I do not think that is a good idea. Your body learns how to handle the bike at a certain weight subconsciously, when you change that weight it throws off your handling big time and can be dangerous. You will need at least a day and night to relearn the bike again.
So fill that battery compartment up fully and drive and explore new places.
Surprisingly, when adding the extra 15lbs of batteries, I couldn't even feel the difference easily of the added weight. The only way to notice was that my driving and handling the bike was off a little.
My point is that you're better off adding the extra batteries and not worry about weight. The frame is strong enough that the battery weight doesn't make the bike wobbly or anything or effect handling. You won't notice the weight after your body learns how to handle the bike and the advantage of having the extra batteries is well worth it.
If you're going to off-road the bike and want to change battery capacity often I do not think that is a good idea. Your body learns how to handle the bike at a certain weight subconsciously, when you change that weight it throws off your handling big time and can be dangerous. You will need at least a day and night to relearn the bike again.
So fill that battery compartment up fully and drive and explore new places.
Hyena
10 GW
baja ebiker said:
Price depends if you DIY or buy it pre-made. I dont know what delivery is like to Mexico, if there's a local hobbyking and you can make up the pack yourself from RC hobby packs that would be by far the cheapest. You'd be looking at around $1500 in RC packs and a good few hours to assemble it all (I spent the best part of a day rebuild the 16ah battery for my stealth fighter recently and the raptor battery is more than double that size)
Otherwise you could get a pre-made, plug and play 18650 battery made up but it won't be cheap. I'm chasing up some options now for some killer, long range high power batteries but you're talking in ballpark of $2000 for one of that size. So lipo is obviously a fair bit cheaper but it depends on how much you value your time and if you've got the skills to do it. I can't stress enough that you really need to know what you're doing when building lipo packs, particularly huge 40ah ones like the raptor can hold. We're talking about a battery that will happily discharge 1000+ amps if you bump the wires together, 2000+ amps if you're using the better C rate stuff! Alot of us who are more experienced casually talk about building these packs and then noobs come along and assume it's just a matter of twisting a few wires together and wrapping it up in duct tape but it's really not. Unless you know what you're doing with lipo I'm trying to steer people away from it these days. The bang for buck is certainly there but high powered 18650 is just such a better option - safe, neat, easy and no maintenance or balancing required as it's all taken care of by the BMS.
Depends on how you will actually construct the pack - if DIYing using those blocks then of course you need to factor that in. If you're having them made professionally and tab welded there's usually minimal spacing between the cells. When I'm measuring out I allow 20mm per cell knowing that it's actually a shade less than that and if I miss out by a few mm on any particular dimension I know it'll still squeeze in.Mammalian04 said:
As an example the new 21S packs I'm using in my conversion kits are a shade over 400mm long, and that includes the BMS too! So under 19mm per cell in a string.
Good call, and it's nice to have a bit more tolerance for component ratings too. 29E cells at ~100 amps will sag more than 25R but it's not huge deal in the grand scheme of things. Unless you're really riding hard and constantly hill climbing it'll only be bursting those high currents for a few seconds anyway.
Yeah that's doable but you'd probably want a BMS in each pack for maximum plug and play friendliness. You'd also need to make sure both packs are fully charged (or at the same state of charge) when you put them back into parallel as otherwise the higher charger battery will try and dump bulk current into the lesser charged pack.
