Qulbix Raptor 140

[marcn]

or effect handling.

I'd have to disagree. I think it played a big part in handling, and that was only on pavement. No matter what bicycle forks or rear shock you use, it will have an effect. We're still messing with the Cane Creek, but the Marzocchi, although excellent forks, needed adjustments and a new chamber, otherwise we'd have 112mm of compression just from braking. Once you start introducing other obstacles that the forks are already absorbing, plus the compression from braking weight, you'll bottom out the forks.

Of course handling characteristics can be a different priority for everyone, and what one person is happy with, someone else may not be.

 

[Offroader]

or effect handling.

I'd have to disagree. I think it played a big part in handling, and that was only on pavement. No matter what bicycle forks or rear shock you use, it will have an effect. We're still messing with the Cane Creek, but the Marzocchi, although excellent forks, needed adjustments and a new chamber, otherwise we'd have 112mm of compression just from braking. Once you start introducing other obstacles that the forks are already absorbing, plus the compression from braking weight, you'll bottom out the forks.

Of course handling characteristics can be a different priority for everyone, and what one person is happy with, someone else may not be.

I guess I should say it will have no noticeable effect on the handling.

I'm sure it will have a small effect, but quite small that you won't notice it. We are only talking around 15 pounds for a substantial size difference in battery capacity. That small amount of weight isn't going to change the handling enough to come close to outweighing the benefits of having the extra capacity.

Yes, you will have to re-tune the suspension of course when changing the weight and may also need to change the spring weights, but that is to be expected.

braking? Maybe if you measured the braking distance, but I noticed no change in braking.

The raptor built on downhill suspension is going to weigh a lot no matter how you put it.

This is just my opinion and you will have to make a determination if the extra weight is worth it for you. However, from my experience the extra weight for the extra battery capacity was well worth it and it honestly hasn't had a noticeable effect on the handling of my bike.

I must admit, before I added the extra 15lbs of battery weight I was worried that it would ruin the handling of the bike. I think I may have even posted about it. The bike handled great with 25lbs of batteries, but after adding the batteries I was surprised it made no noticeable difference.

Marcn, may I ask what kind of riding are you going to be doing where the weight will be important?

 

[marcn]

Marcn, may I ask what kind of riding are you going to be doing where the weight will be important?

Weight isn't important, otherwise I wouldn't have built a 50kg+ mammoth

All I'm saying is when it comes to the weight, the speed you want to travel at, and the terrain you expect to travel on, you've got to consider suspension setup pretty carefully. Most the time it's overlooked. Weight plays a big part in all that.

In my experience, having a 13kg weight impacted how the bike handled significantly, and over 100mm of suspension sag from braking is quite obvious, and in our case not so good. Of course I love range, we just had to be careful with suspension to compensate for it. The Raptor isn't an actual downhill bike, but we're still expecting to smash it up a little, hopefully with nothing snapping or otherwise failing. If we had fit more Ah in there, it would've made things more difficult for us. That may not be the case for people who rise fire trails or just use it on normal paved surfaces.

 

[Offroader]

marcn, how does rider weight effect the handling compared to the weight of the bike? Reason I ask is because people who use the raptor will be lots of different weights, and this must have a lot of effect on the suspension or similar to the effect adding extra battery weight will have.

Maybe I get away with a lot because I weigh very little? I will just say I weigh around the weight of my raptor, most people are going to be 50+ lbs more weight than their raptor.

You're going to have to tune the suspension when you change weight drastically. With 13kg you will have to increase the rear spring weight and quite possibly the fork spring. If you're a heavy guy, then most likely you're not going to get away with using the medium spring weight for the fork on a heavy raptor.

 

[marcn]

Coming in at 96-98kg (211-216lbs) I'm much heavier than you, so it definitely plays a part. The speed which you're travelling at and braking from also plays a part. We originally had MT8 brakes but we're heating them up way too much (are you serious?!).

I would absolutely love more range and upgrading to the Raptor 140. Would love to fill it to the brim with 18650's. But it just wouldn't be practical for what we're planning to do with it. I am trying to convince my brother though who's looking at buying a Stealth Bomber.

 

[Offroader]

marcn, I think you compared having nothing in the battery compartment to having added 13kg battery, did you even have the heavy hubmotor installed? Yeah, you're going to notice a big difference once you do that .

However, going from 11.3kg pack to a 18kg pack (heavy bike to heavier bike), like in my case, is going to be a lot less noticeable, I know because I tried it and I didn't notice any difference. The advantages FAR outweighed any disadvantages of having the extra battery weight. This is why I'm recommending to not limit your battery size because you may think the bike weight may be too heavy.

Stuff like overheating brakes or suspension compressing 4 inches while braking isn't just a problem of adding an extra 15lbs of battery weight, but more of a problem of overall weight, which is going to be mostly rider weight.

If anyone is worried then I think it best to start with a lower pack weight at first and get used to the bike. Then add some weight that equals what you want to expand the pack to and drive the bike for a few days and see how much it will effect the overall handling.

The raptor is going to take some time to get used to as if you're coming from a bicycle conversion will be quite different. I don't recommend that you drive the bike with nothing in the battery compartment when you first build it, then quickly add a lot of weight to determine your pack size.

 

[marcn]

marcn, I think you compared having nothing in the battery compartment to having added 13kg battery

I've actually just come back from trying the bike loaded with dummy weights, 0kg, 4kg, 9kg, 13kg then 19kg. Bloody hell what a tank she becomes. The differences between dummy weights affected the feeling of the bike a good deal. I guess everyone feels things differently, and people also ride on varying terrain. Mind you we're riding under no power, but it's all steep downhill with varying bends everywhere.

Although this is the first high powered DIY bike we build, I definitely didn't expect it to handle anything like the bikes we've tested so far. It's on the opposite side of the spectrum.

 

[Offroader]

I'm not sure what you're trying to test here. Get the hubmotor in, get power going, and then test from there. The way your trying to test is not testing the bike with proper power in the rear.

It is like taking a dirtbike and going downhill with it without power.

Even on the downhills I am giving the bike throttle.

 

[marcn]

Hehe i like the comparison although not quite there. We'll get to that Our test is purely to get an idea for suspension setup sag which wont make a difference if we're travelling at 25-30kmhr downhill with or without power. Weight and speed is identical which is what's important here.

To get back on topic I've almost convinced my brother to purchase the 140. Once em3ev get back to him with some battery configs I'll post them here.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Wrote up a quick article on the Raptor 140, feel free to PM me any corrections or additional info.

http://www.electricbike.com/qulbix-raptor-140/

_______________________________________

Is anyone considering a Raptor with a LightningRods big block motor driving the left side? (72V X 60A = 4,300W) The result would be similar to bzhwindtalkers LMX P2...(http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=61030)

 

[ecruz]

Marcn, may I ask what kind of riding are you going to be doing where the weight will be important?

Weight isn't important, otherwise I wouldn't have built a 50kg+ mammoth

All I'm saying is when it comes to the weight, the speed you want to travel at, and the terrain you expect to travel on, you've got to consider suspension setup pretty carefully. Most the time it's overlooked. Weight plays a big part in all that.

In my experience, having a 13kg weight impacted how the bike handled significantly, and over 100mm of suspension sag from braking is quite obvious, and in our case not so good. Of course I love range, we just had to be careful with suspension to compensate for it. The Raptor isn't an actual downhill bike, but we're still expecting to smash it up a little, hopefully with nothing snapping or otherwise failing. If we had fit more Ah in there, it would've made things more difficult for us. That may not be the case for people who rise fire trails or just use it on normal paved surfaces.

Hmm 15lbs is not much a good lunch and late number 2 is about 7 lbs. +5 pounds from a weekend of beer. NAH I have to side with OffRoad lol

 

[ecruz]

Also for those wondering. My pack with spacers and batteries at 22x12p of Sony VTC5 was around $2000 shipped.

 

[marcn]

Wrote up a quick article on the Raptor 140

Loving the comparison of the frames, great work!

Hmm 15lbs is not much a good lunch and late number 2 is about 7 lbs. +5 pounds from a weekend of beer.

LOL, you sir are a mighter bogger!

 

[Hyena]

Hmm 15lbs is not much a good lunch and late number 2 is about 7 lbs

'Merica! :lol:

Wrote up a quick article on the Raptor 140, feel free to PM me any corrections or additional info.

I'll have a heap more info for you shortly Mr Magnets
I'll do an unboxing vid, showing an examination of each component and hopefully if I have time a complete build log/video showing those wanting to take on a DIY project like this exactly what is involved. And then of course once all done there'll be a video or 20 of the beast in action

 

[Rix]

marcn, I think you compared having nothing in the battery compartment to having added 13kg battery

I've actually just come back from trying the bike loaded with dummy weights, 0kg, 4kg, 9kg, 13kg then 19kg. Bloody hell what a tank she becomes. The differences between dummy weights affected the feeling of the bike a good deal. I guess everyone feels things differently, and people also ride on varying terrain. Mind you we're riding under no power, but it's all steep downhill with varying bends everywhere.

Although this is the first high powered DIY bike we build, I definitely didn't expect it to handle anything like the bikes we've tested so far. It's on the opposite side of the spectrum.

Marcn, not trying to gang up on you with Offroader, but even running down the road with dummy weights loaded in the frame, what ever you think your suspension will be dialed at, will change when that weight comes from battery. Reason being, settings act way different when power is applied. Compression becomse too soft and needs to be increased, rebound becomes to quick and needs to be slowed. That being said, you can use weights in your frame for static sag settings and that will get you super ball park close. If you have a dirt bike back ground like me, the best advise I can give you is however slow you think the rebound needs to be, go to clicks slower. Some of the things you said tell me you know suspension set ups and how critical it is, so I feel where you are coming from there.

Rick

 

[marcn]

Hi Rick,

Thanks for your advice, never feel like that at all. More than happy to hear peoples advice. After all, a lot of the decisions on what's going on my Raptor were from things I've read from yourself and others!
I really did think that the motors power would affect the rear shock more so than the front forks, which is why we haven't dialed the back and have been working with the front forks under braking and cornering using dummy weights.

 

[Mammalian04]

Jay, thanks for your input on the batteries. When you say that I might need another BMS is I split the packs, would it not just be a matter of unplugging the balance leads from the BMS? Below is the picture of the Adaptto BMS.

I'll do an unboxing vid, showing an examination of each component and hopefully if I have time a complete build log/video showing those wanting to take on a DIY project like this exactly what is involved. And then of course once all done there'll be a video or 20 of the beast in action

Not having built a bike (much less an eBike before), your video build log will be awesome! Once again, thanks for the contribution to all of us noobs... and to the rest of you as well! I am learning a lot from you all.

 

[Rix]

Hi Rick,

Thanks for your advice, never feel like that at all. More than happy to hear peoples advice. After all, a lot of the decisions on what's going on my Raptor were from things I've read from yourself and others!
I really did think that the motors power would affect the rear shock more so than the front forks, which is why we haven't dialed the back and have been working with the front forks under braking and cornering using dummy weights.

No prob, you will get things ball park accurate. Actually getting your speed up down hill with the dummy weights will help with dialing your front like you said. So where you at on your build being up and running?

 

[marcn]

No prob, you will get things ball park accurate. Actually getting your speed up down hill with the dummy weights will help with dialing your front like you said. So where you at on your build being up and running?

At the moment we've got standard cranks and bottom bracket fitted, but we're waiting on the Schlumpf from Qulbix. Electrical equipment is still yet to go in as were waiting on parts from all over. Had to also play around with different derailleurs and their side profiles, as like Snell, in 5th gear we kept having issues with the cage hitting the motor side cover. So we've ordered another derailleur, which should arrive tomorrow.

We've got borrowed MT8 brakes fitted from Magura, but we're still waiting on these new MT7's to arrive - they said August.

I'd love to have this finished by end of August, but too many things are out of our control, and setting the controller and CA up I'm sure will occupy a lot of our time to dial it in right. I honestly didn't know how big of a job it was building your own bike to how you like it, even with parts readily available. Making sure everything is working together or can work together has taken up a lot of time. More complicated by the fact we're trying to run PAS, didn't know how much of a headache it was introducing a freewheel and cadence sensor into the picture. But the experience has been awesome, and it's all very exciting.

 

[Rix]

No prob, you will get things ball park accurate. Actually getting your speed up down hill with the dummy weights will help with dialing your front like you said. So where you at on your build being up and running?

At the moment we've got standard cranks and bottom bracket fitted, but we're waiting on the Schlumpf from Qulbix. Electrical equipment is still yet to go in as were waiting on parts from all over. Had to also play around with different derailleurs and their side profiles, as like Snell, in 5th gear we kept having issues with the cage hitting the motor side cover. So we've ordered another derailleur, which should arrive tomorrow.

We've got borrowed MT8 brakes fitted from Magura, but we're still waiting on these new MT7's to arrive - they said August.

I'd love to have this finished by end of August, but too many things are out of our control, and setting the controller and CA up I'm sure will occupy a lot of our time to dial it in right. I honestly didn't know how big of a job it was building your own bike to how you like it, even with parts readily available. Making sure everything is working together or can work together has taken up a lot of time. More complicated by the fact we're trying to run PAS, didn't know how much of a headache it was introducing a freewheel and cadence sensor into the picture. But the experience has been awesome, and it's all very exciting.

Probably a couple of free wheel spacers or a free wheel extension baracket will solve your derailer problems. Know what you mean, I have been working on a frame design of my own, and so far, its been for shit. Much more difficult then I ever realized. Not throwing in the towel, not giving up, but sure not going to plan on have a rolling chassis any time soon. With enough screwing around I will nail it, someday. Built several mountain bikes up from the frame over the years, once I get past the frame part, rolling chassis will come quickly. Don't know if I speak for everyone, but would like to see some progress pics ofyour build as it continues.

 

[Hyena]

Jay, thanks for your input on the batteries. When you say that I might need another BMS is I split the packs, would it not just be a matter of unplugging the balance leads from the BMS? Below is the picture of the Adaptto BMS.

Presumably you'd still want the BMS to do it's things so you'd want to remove half the cells but still have the other half still monitored. So essentially you'd be running 2 parallel packs with separate discharge and balance leads. You'd either plug in each pack 1 at a time or use them both in parallel for double the capacity. You'd need to make a parallel harness coming off the adaptor board to do this. Not impossible by any stretch of the imagination but you wouldn't want to be yanking half a dozen JST plugs in and out every time you do it either. The best approach would be to use a 21 pin Dsub or better still centronics connector (this is what I had on my stealth) but it would mean having of them there handing off the adaptto. You then have the additional potential issue of how to charge each sub pack through the bike and you'd have to make sure that you kept the spare pack full and recharge the flat one before putting them back into parallel otherwise you'll have issues like I mentioned previously. With a normal non-adaptto setup it it would be neater and easier to use 2 discrete batteries with their own BMS and just have 2 discharge leads inside, but yeah, you'll need to make a parallel harness if you want to use the adaptto in that sense.

 

[Merlin]

At the moment we've got standard cranks and bottom bracket fitted, but we're waiting on the Schlumpf from Qulbix. Electrical equipment is still yet to go in as were waiting on parts from all over. Had to also play around with different derailleurs and their side profiles, as like Snell, in 5th gear we kept having issues with the cage hitting the motor side cover. So we've ordered another derailleur, which should arrive tomorrow.

i have also ordered the Schlumpf. since it is from germany i ordered here. The Gear is great. But the Finish, isnt.(Crank arms)
They looked 10 years old and scratched. I get a new pair and this is also in poor condition. Not the Price worth.(60$ JUST FOR THE CRANK ARMS!!!)
But the most important Problem is the Gear is not in the middle/center of the Frame :?
The GAP on the Right Crankarm the told me that is that the arm dont touch the Gear.(because it spins faster)
sure...but 1mm would be enough. not that 4mm Canyon....i will drill the arm a bit that it fits better.
atm iam waiting for answer because it is not in the middle of frame. No room for spacers. disappointed from that Premium Price Crank :-/

Some Pics:

.......... More complicated by the fact we're trying to run PAS, didn't know how much of a headache it was introducing a freewheel and cadence sensor into the picture. But the experience has been awesome, and it's all very exciting.

Let me know your solutions for Pas with the Schlumpf. I need also a PAS and thats the last Point of my list. ATM i have only ordered a PAS with 12Pole Disc

 

[marcn]

Hi Merlin. Great pictures showing what you mean. That gap from the crank arm could be to bring your legs out wider so when you pedal your legs minimise hitting the frame? Maybe?

I can see that the gear isn't centred to the crank which does look odd. Let me know what they say about that. I'm guessing it has everything to do with the extreme overdrive it offers.

Regarding the gap on the spindle I think that's good as there's enough thread for the pedal sensor and the hall sensor. The 12 pole that ebikes.ca sells is made for a square spindle which is suprisingly what Schlumpf uses.

 

[Merlin]

when the "Gap" is same on every site i wouldnt say anything. but "excentered" on a 1000$ Crank it is not acceptable.
when they offer a 83mm Bottom Bracket version. They have to build something that fits.
(Without Tweaking from a DIY eBiker to fit the Produt they offered)

I would buy from ATS or a Patterson Drive thats half Price of a Schlumpf, but they all had no 83mm Version

For the PAS you want to use the left Crank side? mhhhh.
sure it is the easy way. but i would prefer the right side, that you dont see the big Magnet Disc and Pas.

Did you have any information about deliver your Schlumpf? As Qulbix sell this special for the Raptor, i cant imagine that the Crank is "excentered" also from qulbix.....

 

[marcn]

On the bikes I've ridden the pas has been on the chainring side always. Depending on the pas you're using it shouldn't matter what side as long as it's reversible.

I wonder what effects it has being off centre and if this is delibrate or not a complete diy match. On their promo for their 140 it looks on centre

No information on delivery just yet but it should be soon. Ziva did say they're special orders from Schlumpf.