Rickys High Power Flexable motor controller

[Njay]

As I see it there's a big difference in there, Lebowski. At least in 2-3 wheel diy vehicles, a good/powerful controller can cost half or more of the motor and 1/4 of batteries.

Just look at how many controller builders there are here; I'm sure it's not just a matter of having fun

 

[Lebowski]

Just look at how many controller builders there are here; I'm sure it's not just a matter of having fun

? You sure ? That's why I build mine, just for fun and out of curiosity....

 

[walls99]

Just look at how many controller builders there are here; I'm sure it's not just a matter of having fun

+1 for the fun of building you own controller

Of course, not finding something that met my requirement, also pushed me in that direction. FYI, my controller is also fully functional and open for other DIY-er to build their own controller with limited effort on the SW side.

 

[Alan B]

Sevcon makes good money selling controllers. But they are a major pain to program for ebike use.

The big problem is that we have essentially zero really excellent ebike controllers. Every one that is out there has shortcomings.

There are some promising developments, but nothing available yet.

There is a huge opportunity for improvement.

But it is a hard product to make money on since the cheap controllers out there set a low expectation of the price.

 

[Njay]

I have no doubt that the major part of it is having fun. But the thing is, and as was already mentioned here, there are "shortcomings" in the currently available ones that push people into designing their own. And it's hard stuff, so we don't take the decision "lightly". I also thing there's room for a lot of improvement, and it's not always a matter of "better" hardware; many improvements are just sw, but people is locked on the closed "chinese" stuff.

 

[Alan B]

I agree with that - the hardware improvement is interesting, but the real improvement is in software. The software that is out there is too closed and not suitable for improvement, so it is necessary to start over.

However the manufacturers of the chips provide huge support for software development. If we had some good open hardware using standard processors these software tools would be used to make a variety of good controllers. So we need open hardware and open software and this will take off.

 

[Lebowski]

I thought about it, making a controller and selling it.. But you have to realise we here at ES are
not the typical person on the street. We here have a way above average interest in electronic
vehicles and the controllers associated with them. And most of us here don;t care about
the controller, most questions here are about batteries and torque arms.

I cannot think of 25 people here on ES that would be interested in my controller, and at a few $
profit per sold controller it's just not worth going into business.... especially, as pointed out
by Alan, the market is flooded with cheap chinese controllers which, lets be realistic, are good
enough for most peoples needs.

Output stage wise, I don't think it as difficult as many of us think it is to make a big output
stage capable of say 10-20 kW. Parts and technology for this are readily available. I'm an
analog IC design engineer by profession so this sort of thing is right up my alley. If you
want to build something like that though you need a lot of equipment to test it, i'm talking
motor, batteries, vehicle or some sort of dyno. Plus, even then for me personally there
would be no point as laws here prevent me from ever riding around on my creation so why
bother ?

I hope I'm wrong though, it would be nice to start a profitable EV controller business......

 

[Njay]

For ebikes there are plenty cheap and reasonable options... not so much for motorcycles.

 

[h0tr0d]

Personally, I want to buy a controller not print pcbs...
Lebowski, you provide a chip, not a working controller (Arlo1 is almost there)... What's the max PWM freq your chip can go?

Burtie and Marti are developing a controllers but not there yet...

Wall's controller is looking good also, can you sell me something so I can "bolt" some big fets and caps and go for 20kW?

 

[Arlo1]

Personally, I want to buy a controller not print pcbs...
Lebowski, you provide a chip, not a working controller (Arlo1 is almost there)... What's the max PWM freq your chip can go?

Burtie and Marti are developing a controllers but not there yet...

Wall's controller is looking good also, can you sell me something so I can "bolt" some big fets and caps and go for 20kW?

What motor do you want to run with it at what voltage? If you settle for 100v or less a 24-36 fet controller with 4110 fets will rip hard. I was able to get the picture from my avatar from a 24fet but its just a spike. It actually only run at 250 amps an 90v under load lol. Man the pour X5 was so hot instantly!
If you want plug and play you will be waiting a while unless you want to spend BIG money.

 

[Lebowski]

Personally, I want to buy a controller not print pcbs...
Lebowski, you provide a chip, not a working controller (Arlo1 is almost there)... What's the max PWM freq your chip can go?

Burtie and Marti are developing a controllers but not there yet...

Wall's controller is looking good also, can you sell me something so I can "bolt" some big fets and caps and go for 20kW?

Arlo is using my chip, so.... PWM can go up to a few 100 kHz, so it really depends on what
the output stage can handle.

Getting back to selling controllers versus a chip / PCB combo... You have to keep in mind that,
with all the metal work involved building something like the Big Lebowski controller takes
2 to 3 days. Are you willing to pay $50 an hour (my daily job rate) for that ? Having it build in
China for less only makes sense from hundreds or thousands of controllers upwards...

 

[Njay]

Getting back to selling controllers versus a chip / PCB combo... You have to keep in mind that, with all the metal work involved building something like the Big Lebowski controller takes 2 to 3 days. Are you willing to pay $50 an hour (my daily job rate) for that ? Having it build in China for less only makes sense from hundreds or thousands of controllers upwards...

As a side note, you "should":

1) Re-design the controller (including, or mainly, the mechanics) for manufacture.
Make things simpler to build, less custom work, easier assemble.

2) Outsource the assembly job to a cheaper technician.
You're too skillful (and therefore expensive) to spend time assembling stuff.

I'm not saying it will make your controller "price competitive", but in general terms that's how you do it

 

[Ratking]

I thought about it, making a controller and selling it.. But you have to realise we here at ES are
not the typical person on the street. We here have a way above average interest in electronic
vehicles and the controllers associated with them. And most of us here don;t care about
the controller, most questions here are about batteries and torque arms.

I cannot think of 25 people here on ES that would be interested in my controller, and at a few $
profit per sold controller it's just not worth going into business.... especially, as pointed out
by Alan, the market is flooded with cheap chinese controllers which, lets be realistic, are good
enough for most peoples needs.

Output stage wise, I don't think it as difficult as many of us think it is to make a big output
stage capable of say 10-20 kW. Parts and technology for this are readily available. I'm an
analog IC design engineer by profession so this sort of thing is right up my alley. If you
want to build something like that though you need a lot of equipment to test it, i'm talking
motor, batteries, vehicle or some sort of dyno. Plus, even then for me personally there
would be no point as laws here prevent me from ever riding around on my creation so why
bother ?

I hope I'm wrong though, it would be nice to start a profitable EV controller business......

I would like you to come to Norway and start a company with me
We will build high performance bikes with rc-drives and hardcore controllers that's bulletproof.
Every downhill guy would want one and we could be rich. After that we would focus on
building super motards with even bigger motors so they could compete with the gas ones.

I am sure that there are a marked for a 15kw downhill bike if we could make it sturdy and
user friendly. I would do this any day if I knew I would succeed in my quest

 

[amberwolf]

I hope I'm wrong though, it would be nice to start a profitable EV controller business......

see soliton1 saga on diywlelectriccar forum sfor example of such a star tup .

 

[h0tr0d]

Lebowski,

You seem the true definition of a specialist.
You know a LOT about controllers and the like, but you know next to nothing regarding the potential market for your product.
If your chip is really flexible to drive any kind of pmdc motor, then your market is EVERY ice powered vehicle and convert that to ev. Plus niche market like downhill monster ebikes.

I want to start a company to convert anything to EV, I'm starting with ebikes because of low initial investment. Then bikes, cars, trucks... And all is STUCK waiting for a decent flexible controller that I just change the power stage.

 

[Lebowski]

Yep, I'm a technical person with no clue about marketing or anything like that.

Where are you located HotRod ? Pity that nobody in my area wants to start an EV company,
I mean, Ratking, come on, Norway, so cold ! (but beautiful though)

 

[Arlo1]

Lebowski,

You seem the true definition of a specialist.
You know a LOT about controllers and the like, but you know next to nothing regarding the potential market for your product.
If your chip is really flexible to drive any kind of pmdc motor, then your market is EVERY ice powered vehicle and convert that to ev. Plus niche market like downhill monster ebikes.

I want to start a company to convert anything to EV, I'm starting with ebikes because of low initial investment. Then bikes, cars, trucks... And all is STUCK waiting for a decent flexible controller that I just change the power stage.

This isn't an easy thing. remember the brain board from various controllers will have different features needing different wires and pin-outs etc.
Anywas that's what I have designed with lebowski's chip.
The brain board is separate from the power boards. I have 3 different powerstage builds on the go that all use the same 10pin ribbon to connect to them.
So here is the other thing if I build it it will be like lebowski where I normally charge 60per hour at my shop and if BIG if I might be able to get a build time down to 10-12 hours who will want to pay that? Not to mention the cost of the parts which will range from ~$300-$900 in just parts depending on power levels and voltage levels.

 

[Lebowski]

I agree with Arlin, if you want a good vector sine wave controller for a reasonable price you need to put in the hours yourself.
You can buy the controller IC, PCB and order the rest of the parts for a 6 FET from DigiKey for $200 (Big Lebowski controller parts
plus PCB cost around $200 if I remember correctly), but then you need to put in the hours to assemble it yourself. Having it
assembled by someone else at $50-$60 an hour is what makes it very very expensive...

 

[h0tr0d]

Yep, I'm a technical person with no clue about marketing or anything like that.

Where are you located HotRod ? Pity that nobody in my area wants to start an EV company,
I mean, Ratking, come on, Norway, so cold ! (but beautiful though)

2000km away from you, Europe's westernmost country...

I'm not saying to start a EV company, but do start a controller company!
You've designed your controller for ebike but is it the only application??? Find the multiple possible applications for your tech and you have a business.

Edit: I don't need a "controller guy" on my company, but I do need a controller supplier which understands what I (or the market) need.

I agree with Arlin, if you want a good vector sine wave controller for a reasonable price you need to put in the hours yourself.
You can buy the controller IC, PCB and order the rest of the parts for a 6 FET from DigiKey for $200 (Big Lebowski controller parts
plus PCB cost around $200 if I remember correctly), but then you need to put in the hours to assemble it yourself. Having it
assembled by someone else at $50-$60 an hour is what makes it very very expensive...

I think you both didn't pay enough attention to NJay's words.
Sell the PCB's and chips to a $10/h person or company so he can assemble according to your specs.
Example: designing PCB - 20 hours => that cost separated by 100 PCB's =>20$ pcb + 50$*20h/100= 120$ PCB selling point
Or hire a recently grad technician, passionate about EV stuff and put him assembling @ 10$/h...
Just don't send it to manufacture elsewhere (other country)!

We need innovators like yourselves to keep innovating, not assemble stuff!!!

 

[Arlo1]

h0tr0d if you want ready to go you need to look to Sevcon, Tritium wavesculptor, Green time, Reinhart industries Altrax, Curtis etc . The only problem with what you ask is lebowski has no way to test the HI power stuff as he said its not allowed on the road where he is. And I can tell you first hand we don't want to build this stuff to hand away after spending 1000s - 10s of 1000s to get a powerful/reliable controller. I am going to do what I can and post all files for any diy guy to copy me and just order a chip from lebowski. I might offer pre built controllers too but it will cost money. and when you compare the features to a sevcon or something nice you will see its worth it.

As for where it can go its takes volume to make the big production to make it cheaper and unfortunately it takes money to do that. I have a dyno for 0-5 hp and a big motorcycle dyno for 5-300 whp I am also going to add a load brake etc. So I can spend the time setting this all up. But I can tell you in the last 3 years learning what I know cost me ~$10,000 in blown up shit. Who's going to pay for that??? Hi Hp inverters do not come cheep.

As for your company you are very eager which is cool but you seem like you come out of the gate full speed with a blindfold on. There is companies selling what you want and there is a reason the DIY car crowd is mostly using Brushed motors. It will come in time but for now look at what you can buy from Zero for off the shelf components they have 54 hp at the wheel. among other options.

 

[h0tr0d]

h0tr0d if you want ready to go you need to look to Sevcon, Tritium wavesculptor, Green time, Reinhart industries Altrax, Curtis etc . The only problem with what you ask is lebowski has no way to test the HI power stuff as he said its not allowed on the road where he is. And I can tell you first hand we don't want to build this stuff to hand away after spending 1000s - 10s of 1000s to get a powerful/reliable controller. I am going to do what I can and post all files for any diy guy to copy me and just order a chip from lebowski. I might offer pre built controllers too but it will cost money. and when you compare the features to a sevcon or something nice you will see its worth it.

I'm aiming for power density, something almost no one (if anyone) is selling. At least for decent prices.
The "secret" for power density is decent rpm, low current to minimize copper losses and a gearbox. With that, you can have high torque without "stupid" amp levels, efficiency and decent topspeed. Plus a cheaper controller.

Controllers capable of 200V120A are too expensive and many of them are not high commutation (only 500hz for Sevcon if I remember correctly).

Thats why I'm looking for alternatives.

As for where it can go its takes volume to make the big production to make it cheaper and unfortunately it takes money to do that. I have a dyno for 0-5 hp and a big motorcycle dyno for 5-300 whp I am also going to add a load brake etc. So I can spend the time setting this all up. But I can tell you in the last 3 years learning what I know cost me ~$10,000 in blown up shit. Who's going to pay for that??? Hi Hp inverters do not come cheep.

I'm not going to argue about business plans here, but the R&D investment has to be diluted in what time frame? I think thats the problem with the stuff that I want, who sells them wants to pay the R&D yesterday!

As for your company you are very eager which is cool but you seem like you come out of the gate full speed with a blindfold on. There is companies selling what you want and there is a reason the DIY car crowd is mostly using Brushed motors. It will come in time but for now look at what you can buy from Zero for off the shelf components they have 54 hp at the wheel. among other options.

Indeed I'm eager, like yourself I would say. That's why you've blown ~$10,000 doing stuff without the adequate knowledge, thing that now possess. From everybody's experience here in ES, my confidence grows daily to make stuff for my project at less then half the cost of many companies pointed above.

 

[Arlo1]

I'm aiming for power density, something almost no one (if anyone) is selling. The "secret" for power density is decent rpm, low current to minimize copper losses and a gearbox. With that, you can have high torque without "stupid" amp levels, efficiency and decent topspeed.

Its not a secrate everyone knows this but whats easy on paper is not always the case in real world.

Plus a cheaper controller.

If this was possible it would be avalible already.

Controllers capable of 200V120A are too expensive and many of them are not high commutation (only 500hz for Sevcon if I remember correctly).

Thats why I'm looking for alternatives.

Think of this like compouters in the 90s its advancing fast but with a smaller market so the cost to devolp it is not easy to justify without charging a decent price

Indeed I'm eager, like yourself I would say. That's why you've blown ~$10,000 doing stuff without the adequate knowledge, thing that now possess. From everybody's experience here in ES, my confidence grows daily to make stuff for my project at less then half the cost of many companies pointed above.

I wasnt trained for this but I love it and will be at it as long as I need 10-20-30 years I dont care its fun and as long as its fun ill do it. But the 10000 for blown parts is still cheeper then the school cost.... I also chalange you to find the cost of a good controller development.... IE Nissan Toyota etc. they spend millions to make it as good as they are..

I have to ask have you ridden an ebike? If so how powerfull? And how much RWHP remember there is 1000s of people thinking they have a 10kw 20kw what ever ebike when in all reality they are less then 1/2 that at the rear wheel.

 

[h0tr0d]

Its not a secrate everyone knows this but whats easy on paper is not always the case in real world.

Most engineering theories come from observing real world experiments. That's what I love about them. If the new "real world" experiment didn't behave like we've planned, we didn't knew enough theory. Period. Although I'm just 32 years old, I'm bloody tired of showing people that is true, no matter what...
I've made some stuff better in real life than most people just because I knew more theory.

If this was possible it would be avalible already.

I would expect this sentence from a lot of people, but from you...?!?
So we should all stop trying to innovate because if "it" were possible, somebody would have done it? Come on Arlin....

Think of this like computers in the 90s its advancing fast but with a smaller market so the cost to devolp it is not easy to justify without charging a decent price

NOT small market, small market VISION. Like I said to Lebowski, a good controller is good in any situation being an ebike, truck, wind turbine or industrial motor. It's all related to size, weight, power and cost. Take the example of gearboxs: most people here buy expensive (also good quality) stuff from Matt, planetary reductions and the like. One guy bought a 20hp angle grinder gearbox really cheap and made it work also. It didn't have the finesse, "bling" or cool factor but it was 1/20th the cost of a recumpence reduction.

I also chalange you to find the cost of a good controller development.... IE Nissan Toyota etc. they spend millions to make it as good as they are..

I'm not here to repeat other peoples mistakes, I want to make new (and more exciting) ones!
Speaking of toyota and Nissan, high voltage and low amps examples...
Lebowski is the living proof that you DO NOT need millions for developing a good controller, right?
All we need is intelligent people having fun like Lebowski and yourself.

I have to ask have you ridden an ebike? If so how powerfull? And how much RWHP remember there is 1000s of people thinking they have a 10kw 20kw what ever ebike when in all reality they are less then 1/2 that at the rear wheel.

Dude! Come on! See the pic on the right side of your screen, there's a blue bike with a 9c hub motor and "neon" tires. it's about a 800W rear wheel considering 20% losses at the moment.

 

[Arlo1]

It takes time and or money h0tr0d so you choose or keep digging and find a good cheep alternative. There is a reason I started building my own.

 

[Alan B]

...

Controllers capable of 200V120A are too expensive and many of them are not high commutation (only 500hz for Sevcon if I remember correctly).

Thats why I'm looking for alternatives.

I don't think you have done enough research on what is available. 500hz max for a Sevcon is clearly incorrect.