Safe's Electric Bike Project #003

[Mark_A_W]

If you ride a motorcycle road racer (and know anything about handling) and then switch and ride something like a Harley the natural question becomes:

"Why does anyone ever buy a Harley?"

...and the answer is in part that many people are just attracted to Chopper/Harley fashion. The other reason people buy the Harley over the road racer is that the Harley has a motor that has a certain sound and vibration that people find exciting. Ride with a girl on the back of the Harley and... well... it's a a type of vibration the women love. :wink:

Only the people that really get into the bike and the technology tend to gravitate naturally away from the image conscious Harley crowd and into the road racer bikes. You have to actually know something about bikes and bike handling to appreciate the high tech bikes. It takes a "refined taste" to like MotoGP bikes... the mainstream uneducated (in motorcycles) crowd just goes by fashion and buys the Harley. (they often know nothing about the technology and don't know that up until recent the Harley hadn't changed for decades)

But we have a lot of people here in the electric bike area that are "Super Dorks" that would neither go down the Harley route nor the Road Racer route and want the electric bike to represent them in their native dorky state. (Xyster represents this to a degree, but his "Hemi" hub motor is his secret act of rebellion 8) ) So I feel like I'm trying to get the dorks off their modifed regular bikes and move them into a new concept. Or better still... skip the dorks entirely and attract new people to a new "Electric Road Racer" concept. To do that I need to "do my homework" and produce something that appeals to the technically sophisticated crowd that knows a lot about bike handling.

Up to this point the electric bike has a dorky reputation... I want to change that... it's like the electric bikes are wearing pocket protectors! :lol:

And some of us DON'T WANT A MOTORBIKE AT ALL. And just want TO GET TO WORK.

I don't want a Road Racer, or a Harley. Stink bikes are over.

If you want a more aerodynamic bike, they already invented the recumbent.

I far prefer the look of a dual suspension mountain bike anyway.

 

[markcycle]

[color=dark blue]If you ride a motorcycle road racer (and know anything about handling) and then switch and ride something like a Harley the natural question becomes:

"Why does anyone ever buy a Harley?"

...and the answer is in part that many people are just attracted to Chopper/Harley fashion. The other reason people buy the Harley over the road racer is that the Harley has a motor that has a certain sound and vibration that people find exciting. Ride with a girl on the back of the Harley and... well... it's a a type of vibration the women love. :wink:

Only the people that really get into the bike and the technology tend to gravitate naturally away from the image conscious Harley crowd and into the road racer bikes. You have to actually know something about bikes and bike handling to appreciate the high tech bikes. It takes a "refined taste" to like MotoGP bikes... the mainstream uneducated (in motorcycles) crowd just goes by fashion and buys the Harley. (they often know nothing about the technology and don't know that up until recent the Harley hadn't changed for decades)

But we have a lot of people here in the electric bike area that are "Super Dorks" that would neither go down the Harley route nor the Road Racer route and want the electric bike to represent them in their native dorky state. (Xyster represents this to a degree, but his "Hemi" hub motor is his secret act of rebellion 8) ) So I feel like I'm trying to get the dorks off their modifed regular bikes and move them into a new concept. Or better still... skip the dorks entirely and attract new people to a new "Electric Road Racer" concept. To do that I need to "do my homework" and produce something that appeals to the technically sophisticated crowd that knows a lot about bike handling.[/color]

Up to this point the electric bike has a dorky reputation... I want to change that... it's like the electric bikes are wearing pocket protectors! :lol:

All that is pompous elitist bull. Their's no race tracks around here and those that drive there rocket bikes like they are on one are crashing and dieing like flys. How about the fact that my E-bike is the fastest way (at 20 MPH) for me to get to work. I avoid traffic and pass lines of standing still cars and the A-Hole kids on there rocket bikes Rocket bike aren't practical or safe on any public road and what you are doing doesn't further the cause of E-biking. If your having fun great but don't think you're helping pull E-biking from some stigma your not. E-bikes will always be looked apon as low powered toys by those addicted to oil and the ICE. Its the obsessive need for over the top power way out of proportion to the job of transporting a person from one place to another that brings on the statement "electric bike has a dorky reputation". E-bikes go slow so there dorky that's bull I know it and slowly so will the rest of the world. As gas goes to 4, 5 or even 6 dollars a gallon and people some day realize they trashed a resource that if used in moderation could have lasted 100's if not 1000's of more years, they will know going slow and being upright, so I can see the world around me and apreciate life isn't dorky at all.

 

[markcycle]

[color=dark blue]If you ride a motorcycle road racer (and know anything about handling) and then switch and ride something like a Harley the natural question becomes:

"Why does anyone ever buy a Harley?"

...and the answer is in part that many people are just attracted to Chopper/Harley fashion. The other reason people buy the Harley over the road racer is that the Harley has a motor that has a certain sound and vibration that people find exciting. Ride with a girl on the back of the Harley and... well... it's a a type of vibration the women love. :wink:

Only the people that really get into the bike and the technology tend to gravitate naturally away from the image conscious Harley crowd and into the road racer bikes. You have to actually know something about bikes and bike handling to appreciate the high tech bikes. It takes a "refined taste" to like MotoGP bikes... the mainstream uneducated (in motorcycles) crowd just goes by fashion and buys the Harley. (they often know nothing about the technology and don't know that up until recent the Harley hadn't changed for decades)

But we have a lot of people here in the electric bike area that are "Super Dorks" that would neither go down the Harley route nor the Road Racer route and want the electric bike to represent them in their native dorky state. (Xyster represents this to a degree, but his "Hemi" hub motor is his secret act of rebellion 8) ) So I feel like I'm trying to get the dorks off their modifed regular bikes and move them into a new concept. Or better still... skip the dorks entirely and attract new people to a new "Electric Road Racer" concept. To do that I need to "do my homework" and produce something that appeals to the technically sophisticated crowd that knows a lot about bike handling.[/color]

Up to this point the electric bike has a dorky reputation... I want to change that... it's like the electric bikes are wearing pocket protectors! :lol:

All that is pompous elitist bull. Their's no race tracks around here and those that drive there rocket bikes like they are on one are crashing and dieing like flys. How about the fact that my E-bike is the fastest way (at 20 MPH) for me to get to work. I avoid traffic and pass lines of standing still cars and the A-Hole kids on there rocket bikes Rocket bike aren't practical or safe on any public road and what you are doing doesn't further the cause of E-biking. If your having fun great but don't think you're helping pull E-biking from some stigma your not. E-bikes will always be looked apon as low powered toys by those addicted to oil and the ICE. Its the obsessive need for over the top power way out of proportion to the job of transporting a person from one place to another that brings on the statement "electric bike has a dorky reputation". E-bikes go slow so there dorky that's bull I know it and slowly so will the rest of the world. As gas goes to 4, 5 or even 6 dollars a gallon and people some day realize they trashed a resource that if used in moderation could have lasted 100's if not 1000's of more years, they will know going slow and being upright, so I can see the world around me and apreciate life isn't dorky at all.

 

[safe]

When it comes to transportation the world is made of of all kinds of people.

Some just want to get to work.

Some want to cruise.

Some want to look fashionable.

Some want to smell the roses.

Some want an adrenaline rush.

...I see no reason that all can't get what they desire.

But enough of the philosophy discussion (wrong area for that) back to the actual project.

 

[safe]

Front Fork Triple Clamp (Part 1)

The title pretty much sums it up... I welded up the first part of the triple clamp today.

 

[disndat]

OK once again I think you guys are missing the point of electric bikes.As someone that owns a road race bike,a dirt bike and an electric bike.I appreciate each for its own purposes.Road racer is very fast and performance oriented and great on a race track-however riding on the street with cars and new ontario communist laws is getting very tired and I am debating turning it into a track bike only.Dirt bike again great fun on the dirt track but cant really ride it anywhere else.Electric bike is not in the same planet(let alone ballpark) in terms of top speed and accelleration to the gas bikes BUT and this is a big but-I can ride it ANYWHERE.Its quiet and light and for the most part does not draw unwanted attention(especially the cops).Riding on trails and side streets I really dont think you need a top speed greater than 60km/hr(or 40 mph).I usually cruise at around 35-40 km/hr and its perfect for range and fun.If I want to go on some off road trails I can make it up any hill that a pro mountain biker can go up.The only thing I am trying to do now(or hoping for)is lighter and more powerful batteries(which will come in time)and to beef up the spokes(anything less than 12 gauge just simply breaks from jumping speed bumps )Also the fact that I have pedals(and yes I still pedal with the motor)as a backup in case something fails on the motor is perfect.

 

[safe]

Riding on trails and side streets I really dont think you need a top speed greater than 60km/hr(or 40 mph).I usually cruise at around 35-40 km/hr and its perfect for range and fun.

Actually the American Federal Electric Bike Law limits the motor to 750 watts, (if you want your bike to qualify) so no matter how hard I try to make an Electric Road Racer be really fast it won't go more than about 30 mph on it's own anyway. Just because the bike is designed to handle well doesn't mean that you need to power it with excessive and dangerous power. Now on a downhill... even a moderate one... such a bike would be able to do 50 mph or so with the 750 watt motor alone and that's a pretty big thrill in itself. So there is a BIG GAP (like you've said) between the gas powered road racer and the electric bike version. I think it all comes down to how the bike feels to ride. If it feels really good then you can commit to those turns at 30 mph rather than having to back off to 25 mph or less. The typical bike has thin tires, a short wheelbase and poor handling when at serious lean angles and it's hard to be confident that the bike will do what you want at higher speeds. All I'm doing is creating the "sensation" of sport riding fun. It's all about the way the bike feels... it's something that a road racer type person appreciates.

On my project #1 (in the box to the left) I've gone down this one downhill almost every ride and I always hit 50 mph. At no time have I had even the slightest wobble, or vague feeling of unease... it's always been solid and felt like you could go 60, 70, or 80 mph and it would only get better. (I've never done that, but it feels that way) Most people on a mountain bike would get pretty freaked out just 50 mph. That's the issue I want solved... the bike has to inspire confidence.

But let's not flood my project thread with too much philosophy... suffice to say that until I complete the project(s) and refine this idea a little further it's all very theoretical right now.

 

[TylerDurden]

American Federal Electric Bike Law

Does not exist.


There is US Consumer Safety law.
It does not limit motors, controllers, batteries or speed. It only limits labels: what you can or cannot sell as an "electric bicycle".

 

[safe]

It does not limit motors, controllers, batteries or speed. It only limits labels: what you can or cannot sell as an "electric bicycle".

Which means if I go to Walmart and want to buy a product classified as an "electric bicycle" (or even a bicycle) it must pass this test and wear this label. What happens after you take it home is up to you and your local laws.

Xyster will still be able to get away with a "Hemi" if he stays quiet about it, but you could never buy his bike at a store.

This topic belongs elsewhere, this is my project thread...

 

[TylerDurden]

This topic belongs elsewhere, this is my project thread...

You opened the door bubby...

By posting in a public forum, you invite comments of any nature. If you want to have exclusive control, go start a blog somewhere else.

 

[safe]

Front Fork Triple Clamp (Part 2)

The second triple clamp bracket has been cut, shaped and then welded. I'm still waiting for the threadless headset to arrive and it's probably a good idea to actually have it in hand before I do much work on the center tube for the triple clamp setup. So I'm not sure what I might start on next.

The weight will be something like three pounds I think, I'm just guessing at this point. It's going to be more weight than a standard fork, but not by so much that it's excessive. It should however be extremely rigid during braking and that's the main thing I'm interested in. I don't want to hit the front brakes and get that wobbly feeling that you normally get on a bike. It's hard to tell how much braking force I'll be using because I don't know yet how much traction these smaller tires can give. So like everything else... it's an experiment.

I just ordered the motor today and I'm going to run it at 36 volts rather than 24 volts. Then with motor (armature) current limiting I'll run it at 30 amps peak and the result should be a cool running motor that can get a peak output of about 750 watts.

MY1016Z3
24 Volt, 350 Watt,
3300 RPM,
19.2 Amp,
permanent-magnet motor.
9 tooth sprocket for #35 chain.
12 gauge power leads.
Gear Ratio: 88:9 (9.778)
Estimated motor resistance 0.203 ohms. (pretty good)

http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=106115

The chart values are all in Watts...

$50

 

[safe]

Front Fork Dropouts

Today I built the front fork dropouts. What I did is use some dropouts from another fork that had some intricate shapes to them and welded that onto some thick sheet metal. I then ground down everything so that it was smooth, then drilled a couple of holes to reduce some weight. First I welded some end caps onto the fork tubes to add some strength and make the welds easier to do. After that I set everything up in what was basically a jig and then welded the dropouts to the fork tubes. Everything looks perfect so far.

And the steering offset is a short 1.25".

 

[safe]

Clipons

Today I built the clipon handlebars. It took all day (5-6 hours) but no problems in doing it. That's generally a "good day" in my book.

I also ordered a 203mm (8") front disk brake for the maximum in braking power. (for a single rotor)

 

[recumbent]

Nice welds, especially on the steering braces, not too much wire feed and plenty penetration, looks strong.

Are you going to put the batteries inside the frame?

 

[safe]

Are you going to put the batteries inside the frame?

Not on this one. The long wheelbase and rearward bias of the bottom bracket location frees up about 10" of space in front of the pedals and behind the fairing. There's plenty of room to place the batteries where they "should" be placed... in the center of the bike... rather than off the rear end like so many are forced to do.

I'm planning on making flat plates for the battery pack. (about 30 cells of Sub C's per plate) I can then stack them up to about 4 layers deep. The picture only shows one plate, so it's a side view. Most of the battery shape goes sideways. The fairing is 10" wide right there. I'm actually thinking about moving the motor back slightly from the way that picture shows things. (I got the motor and have been looking at it's ideal placement on the bike)

 

[safe]

Front Disc Brake Mounts

The clearances for the bolt locations of the front disk mounts are really tight and so I had to do a little grinding to get things to work right. I'll still need to do a little more fine tuning, but what else is new?

Look at the size of that front disc! 203 mm!

I still haven't gotten the headset in the mail, so I'm holding off on the triple clamps until they get here. (that steerer tube might be trimmed a little :wink: ) Two other orders already arrived in the mail from other online sites within the time the first one should have arrived, so they are lagging. The last time I ordered from them they were a lot quicker. :?

 

[safe]

And inside it looks like:

 

[safe]

Chain Configuration Revisions

After playing around with the gear ratios I've realized that there's no reason not to use just one chain like the Cyclone motors use. However, the Cyclone places their motors underneath the bottom bracket and a little behind the front chainring and this ends up having to pull the chain through the bearings of the bottom bracket freewheel to get any torque.

By placing the motor in a direct line to the rear wheel the majority of the power will be "direct pull" (the motor) and the rare and minority power will be from the pedals. Since this is how I plan to use the bike it actually better matches what I need.

Another interesting realization is that you can choose any size front chainring for the pedals that you like and that choice will determine how the pedal power peak relates to the motor peak.

So you have:

16 tooth motor to 43 tooth rear.

and:

44 tooth front chainring to 43 tooth rear.

...however, I'd be using an 8 speed rear hub that starts at 1:1 and goes up to 1:3, so the effective gear ratio while pedaling in 8th gear is:

43 / 3 = 14 so the gearing feels like 44 - 14.

Anyway... this will mean that I only use one standard bike chain.

I'm also going to move the motor back again... better leg clearance. ("dirty D" style)

 

[fechter]

You haven't even ridden it yet and you've already exploded the motor!

 

[Malcolm]

You haven't even ridden it yet and you've already exploded the motor!

I knew Safe wouldn't be able to resist my suggestion to use liquid butane cooling

 

[safe]

Project #004?

A laundry list of things:

The frame for this project (#003) only took a couple of days to build, so it wasn't a big deal. I've been able to ride it around a little and I'm pleased that the geometry feels right. However, since I used the rear end off of another bike (speeding the build process) I'm kind of stuck with tires that are about 2.5" wide as a maximum. So I'm already thinking about a new frame that is built from scratch that will allow 3" tires on the rear and plenty of chain clearances. (which might mean that I'll have a frame for sale)

The Project #002 was completely based on the idea of low priced NiMh "D" cells and when the price of those shot up it took the edge off of that as a project. (plus the frame ended up too heavy and with no pedals)

Frames don't cost anything to build. (maybe $50 or so) So it comes down to time spent building them.

The Project #001 has been a complete success, so there's no urgency to build "just anything" to have something to ride.

Building the fiberglass molds take a long time. I think that I spent about three weeks building them. I still need to get to the actual fiberglass part, which is a bunch of work too.

Something like Armature Current Limiting is great, but a programmable controller circuit is even better, so rather than doing the first idea why not just jump ahead to the second?

My development process seems to be going faster than the rate I can fabricate right now. (one day it will slow down, but the theoretical advances are still coming at a rapid pace)

Here in Missouri there are only about 10 weeks per year when the weather is neither too hot nor too cold to do what you want to do. It's a very inefficient place to live if you plan to do any work. I used to live in California and you could work on projects pretty much year round and so it's just tough to have to deal with such narrow timelines in the midwest. (either that or I need to create a workshop that can be used year round... my garage is currently at about 45 degrees ) A larger issue than the heat (or cold) in the workspace is getting air filtration. When I do grinding or welding even in the summer when the garage door is open I produce so much dust that it makes a layer that covers the entire garage. It's possible to use a dust mask, but it's not a lot of fun. Ideally a workspace needs to recirculate the air after passing through a filter. I've got a good fan that blows air out very effectively, but if it's freezing outside you lose all your heat doing that.

 

[safe]

New Activity

I'm going to do some modifications on this frame so that I can run wide tires (3") front and rear. The forks are okay and I've been doing some work there by welding up the center tube to the bottom triple clamp. For the frame I'm actually cutting a spare fork I had laying around and modifying it so that it's much thicker. I'll be using that as the rear of the frame. (a single backwards facing fork replaces the rear diamond entirely)

If you can't visualize what I'm saying don't worry I'll have pictures soon... (it will look like Dirty D's bike)

During the winter I managed to rescue a bike from the dumpster and it had a 7 speed 13-30 cluster on a cassette type hub. I'll be using that as my gearing. So everything has been free so far.

 

[safe]

Rear Fork

This is what I've been working on. It's basically a front fork that was bent and no longer usable that's been cut in half and in the space in between about an inch worth of new metal was added and then ground smooth. On one side I was able to weld both insides and outsides of the metal for extra strength. The maximum thickness is now about two inches. Add some new plates to attach the rear hub and you are nearly ready to go. The idea is to completely eliminate the lower part of the rear triangle much like Dirty D did on his bike. I have not yet cut the frame, but that will come soon... There's something rather fun about being able to shape and then reshape things to your whim.

The whole purpose of this is to make plenty of room for big fat road racing tires that are 3" wide. There will be room for tires that are up to 4.25" wide such as the one pictured below:

 

[safe]

The Daily Grind

So now I've got the rear fork put together and it all looks to be the right size and everything looks to be in alignment. My next task will be to hack off the rear of the existing frame and figure out how to weld this on in it's place.

 

[safe]

Rear End Hacked Off

I hacked off the entire rear end and then welded a new seat tube in place. From the new seat tube I plan to cut a slot for the rear fork I made and then afterwards add some extra metal to beef up the area and make it stronger. If it fails I want it to fail in the middle of the rear fork and not at the frame junction.