Schwinn/32 10 Build Conclusions
- Thread starter SoSauty
- Start date
recumpence
1 GW
SoSauty said:OK, bypassed the shunt and get the same response. I gave it just enough throttle for it to kick in (turn the motor shaft a tad) then backed off. I thought it was tough to blow the HV160 with the little 3210. Couldn't read the CA this am at first due to early slanted sun flashing thru the leafless trees from across the street. Just caught some 3200W or 3700W readings before power faded. I'm getting the large screen CA and a 100+amp shunt. Plan to switch back to the White Ind Eno. It provides more drag and could help spin/start the Astro.
Would it be worthwhile to take apart the motor? Any real complexities with that?
Matt, I'm assumming "voltage dropout" is voltage dropping too low when the ESC is under load, and it dies (such as 32.7mph WOT when geared for 39-41mph)? Thought excessive loading would take place under 25mph. The HV160 arrived programmed for an LVC around 40.1volts. Is this voltage cutoff set comparatively high in order to prevent this voltage dropout? Actually, I had the HV160 reprogrammed to have the LVC at 38.4volts. Have the stuff to program the HV160 now, will get that going.
Katou, (seems Luke explained about amp spikes a while back) I'm learning trial and error. Ya' think Warren will let me write a foreword to his RC guide book?
Got the CC ESC programming stuff going today! Data says the controller peaked around 75degree f, 62Amps, 3000W, 50-44V, V ripple <1volt, nothing to an extreme. HV160 no#1 had been set 5med timing, 12V LVC, soft cut off, 160A current limit, throttle response 5, endpoints by the Castle Techs. Just programmed HV160 no#2 8) I'm still searching around for recommendations where to the set the timing (I set lo-timing?) and type cutoff (set soft cutoff). Gotta' do some more reading on the ES. The programming is a snap and the data pretty informational
You want the timing set for 24khz.........
Matt
Katou,
Actually, didn't want to post until I had a few stages of this build behind me. Presently I'm readying some pulleys for slipper clutches, though I don't have a lathe or mill. First I prepped a GT 3mm 74T for a standard size slip clutch, but then ran into space problems. So trimmed the mount a bit and ran into chain path problems. I'm up against prepping a 15mm wide GT3mm pulley for a mini slipper clutch and finding a special FW adapter (Matt says he has a steel M30 X 1 adapter he can ship, wah hoo
). This is to fit the smaller 13/14/15 tooth FW's. I've fitted the motor/drive unit under the BB and space is at a premium. I think I have a way to attach the chain tensioner, the derailer for 2 speed, and have changed the batt box and mounting of the HV160. Also have a 100mA .05ohm shunt to go with the large screen CA :wink:
There's 2 working HV160 ESC's with extra caps and some programming details cleared up.
So much work is in progress, yet the wife has given me time off from remodelling our house. I'm building double time and may hit triple time soon!
1st foto is the below BB motor mount, ran into space issues and trimmed another half inch from bottom
Wider 15mm pulley has standard 35ft/lb slip clutch. Narrow 9mm pulley has lite duty 12ft/lb slip clutch. I'm prepping a 15mm pulley for the lite duty slip clutch as I don't think the 9mm will hold up, especially to the high temps. 9-10ft/lbs needed for 3.5:1 mid-reduction Astro 3210.
Gave up searching for adapters to support 15tooth and smaller FW's, which I need to have gearing flexibility and to allow a chain path from under the BB. The 16tooth and up FW's use 1.375X24 threads, Matt makes/supplies a niffy adapter for those. Just today found some "Router Base Brass Inserts." $12.99 for a package at Harbor Freight. They have the almost rare M30X1 threads, just wonder if there's a way to convert 'em into FW adapters with 1/2' bore
The threads turned out to be M30X1.5" which is close (just means the thread pitch is slightly finer so there is an interference fit). Since they are soft brass and the FreeWheels are hard chromemoly, the threads can be forced. I threaded the inserts in & out of the FW's a couple of times; the threads conformed to a more useable/relaxed fit. All that's needed now is a 1.03"(26mm) diameter by .625" long with .5" bore with #8 set screws aluminum rod which I could press to fit inside the brass insert. Of course, this is just for developmental interest as Matt's box of joy(with micro FW adapter) is on its' way 8)
From lower left to right, FW tool, 13tooth FW with the oddball threads, and brass insert that can be forced to fit.
(Multiple edits trying to make issues clear; don't know if Katous' insulting me, ie; shut up, build more, and post less, or complimenting me 'my nerdy level is catching up with others on this forum' :wink: )
Actually, didn't want to post until I had a few stages of this build behind me. Presently I'm readying some pulleys for slipper clutches, though I don't have a lathe or mill. First I prepped a GT 3mm 74T for a standard size slip clutch, but then ran into space problems. So trimmed the mount a bit and ran into chain path problems. I'm up against prepping a 15mm wide GT3mm pulley for a mini slipper clutch and finding a special FW adapter (Matt says he has a steel M30 X 1 adapter he can ship, wah hoo
). This is to fit the smaller 13/14/15 tooth FW's. I've fitted the motor/drive unit under the BB and space is at a premium. I think I have a way to attach the chain tensioner, the derailer for 2 speed, and have changed the batt box and mounting of the HV160. Also have a 100mA .05ohm shunt to go with the large screen CA :wink: There's 2 working HV160 ESC's with extra caps and some programming details cleared up.
So much work is in progress, yet the wife has given me time off from remodelling our house. I'm building double time and may hit triple time soon!
1st foto is the below BB motor mount, ran into space issues and trimmed another half inch from bottom
Wider 15mm pulley has standard 35ft/lb slip clutch. Narrow 9mm pulley has lite duty 12ft/lb slip clutch. I'm prepping a 15mm pulley for the lite duty slip clutch as I don't think the 9mm will hold up, especially to the high temps. 9-10ft/lbs needed for 3.5:1 mid-reduction Astro 3210.
Gave up searching for adapters to support 15tooth and smaller FW's, which I need to have gearing flexibility and to allow a chain path from under the BB. The 16tooth and up FW's use 1.375X24 threads, Matt makes/supplies a niffy adapter for those. Just today found some "Router Base Brass Inserts." $12.99 for a package at Harbor Freight. They have the almost rare M30X1 threads, just wonder if there's a way to convert 'em into FW adapters with 1/2' bore
The threads turned out to be M30X1.5" which is close (just means the thread pitch is slightly finer so there is an interference fit). Since they are soft brass and the FreeWheels are hard chromemoly, the threads can be forced. I threaded the inserts in & out of the FW's a couple of times; the threads conformed to a more useable/relaxed fit. All that's needed now is a 1.03"(26mm) diameter by .625" long with .5" bore with #8 set screws aluminum rod which I could press to fit inside the brass insert. Of course, this is just for developmental interest as Matt's box of joy(with micro FW adapter) is on its' way 8) From lower left to right, FW tool, 13tooth FW with the oddball threads, and brass insert that can be forced to fit.
(Multiple edits trying to make issues clear; don't know if Katous' insulting me, ie; shut up, build more, and post less, or complimenting me 'my nerdy level is catching up with others on this forum' :wink: )
recumpence
1 GW
Sauty,
There is a box of joy headed your way. It shipped Priority yesterday.
Matt
There is a box of joy headed your way. It shipped Priority yesterday.
Matt
Thank you, thank you, thank you!! I'll get a few odds/ends prepped and bolt it all together hopefully by next weekend, could you hear my yahhh hooo Oh, admire your big belt driven trike, yeah, getting rather classy not having to worry lube getting slung about your show rig, nice 8)
Here's proof the Astro3210 is half the size of a soup can
After 12hrs of prep on my drill press, I killed the 15mm wide pulley, so plan 2; took the 9mm pulley and built epoxy edges (15mm belt)
Here's my work buddie; the jackshaft grinding is so noisy I put hearing muffs on, yet young Mo-gee hangs in there (he's 8mo old).
Most parts fitting under the BB need modding.
I'll grind another 5mm off the micro FW adapter Matt sent me and relocate the set screw holes inward. I'm able to take the 1&1/4" FW adapters and trim 'em down to 5/8" which is necessary to get the chain line inside the frame. (If the chainline runs outside the frame, the cranks don't allow enough room for the 2 speed. Space is truly precious with the below the BB location.)
Oh, admire your big belt driven trike, yeah, getting rather classy not having to worry lube getting slung about your show rig, nice 8)Here's proof the Astro3210 is half the size of a soup can
After 12hrs of prep on my drill press, I killed the 15mm wide pulley, so plan 2; took the 9mm pulley and built epoxy edges
(15mm belt)
Here's my work buddie; the jackshaft grinding is so noisy I put hearing muffs on, yet young Mo-gee hangs in there (he's 8mo old).
Most parts fitting under the BB need modding.
I'll grind another 5mm off the micro FW adapter Matt sent me and relocate the set screw holes inward. I'm able to take the 1&1/4" FW adapters and trim 'em down to 5/8" which is necessary to get the chain line inside the frame. (If the chainline runs outside the frame, the cranks don't allow enough room for the 2 speed. Space is truly precious with the below the BB location.)
Congratulations on being set free from the harness of reno's, I got some extra time in the shop myself this week, it feels good.
I followed about half of what you said, any chance you could slow some of that down? It's the "why's" that seem to be missing.
But when in doubt, work more, post less.
No matter what, glad to get an update and hear things are moving!
Katou
I followed about half of what you said, any chance you could slow some of that down? It's the "why's" that seem to be missing.
But when in doubt, work more, post less.
No matter what, glad to get an update and hear things are moving!
Katou
Pretty much rebuilt the 'Toy Racer' The motor is now under the BB with GT3mm drive & mini-slipper clutch, 13T FW. Pretty tight little setup. Just took 'er out for a spin, 1st since Jan, yet observed very high amps being pulled at low speed. The electrics remain HV160 using 12S lipo. The new larger shunt is 100milliVolt-100A or 1.0mOhm.
For this example picture that the 3 motor wires 1 red 1 white 1black connectors. The wires/connectors from the ESC are of the same colors. Presently it runs (I think) only with 1)Blk to Blk, Wht to Red, Red to Wht; 2)Red to Red, Wht to Blk, Blk to Wht. However, with both the CA reads pretty high around 60-90amps to run 15mph. I clocked a top speed of 18mph and 200 peak motor amps. The HV160 remained cool, no felt warmth. The bike is geared for about 31mph.
I've double checked yet wonder if (CA is misprogramed by a decimal point and) 60-90amps is really 6-9amps?
Red to Red, Wht to Wht, Blk to Blk ran backwards.
Wht to Wht, Blk to Red, Red to Blk also ran back wards.
Any thoughts?
For this example picture that the 3 motor wires 1 red 1 white 1black connectors. The wires/connectors from the ESC are of the same colors. Presently it runs (I think) only with 1)Blk to Blk, Wht to Red, Red to Wht; 2)Red to Red, Wht to Blk, Blk to Wht. However, with both the CA reads pretty high around 60-90amps to run 15mph. I clocked a top speed of 18mph and 200 peak motor amps. The HV160 remained cool, no felt warmth. The bike is geared for about 31mph.
I've double checked yet wonder if (CA is misprogramed by a decimal point and) 60-90amps is really 6-9amps?
Red to Red, Wht to Wht, Blk to Blk ran backwards.
Wht to Wht, Blk to Red, Red to Blk also ran back wards.
Any thoughts?
rodgah
10 kW
Best advice I can give you is to get the data link cable for the hv160. That will put your mind at ease. The amps drawn doesn't sound correct to me assuming you were holding a constant speed, especially if no heating is present in any components. Are you certain that you input the correct r value into the CA? I'm also sure there's a high and low current setting for it too but can't remember exactly what it did.
Cheers
Cheers
True Rodgah,
After double checking the CA settings, then rereading CA pamplet, I went to bed. This am I'm thinking the Hi-Lo CA setup may play a role here. For whatever logic the Lo selection is for 1mOmh to 10mOmh and gives a reporting out to .01amps; the Hi selection is for up to .999mOhm and reports out to nearest .1amps. Since I have a 1mOhm shunt resistor and have the CA set for 'Lo', the display read out is a smaller (to the right of decimal) place than with the 'Hi' setting. This would provide an extra digit.
I'm a bit gun shy with a Fail situation after 20min in to running this bike back in January. Yet it occurs to me that to check this, all I need to do is apply some throttle amperage a couple of secs as I'm tootling along at 15mph
Also, in reading there is a range for the settings, and while it recommends 'Lo' for 1mOhm, the 'Hi' setting may give a more simplistic readout. It's the difference between .999mO and 1.0mO with a +/- of probably .005
Gonna reset the CA for Hi and take another spin.
Returned to the Lo setting but found I'd entered a shunt value of .1000 rather than 1.000mOhm, thus the solution to read out. The other part was the slip clutch was set very loose causing the motor to not load and kept the speed down. Dang, it operates silently, gotta go by feel rather than sound to set it.
Now with the Spooky Tooth DR this Sat, I'm Jazzed
The chain tensioner, biggest challenge of this build, is 2mm offline. It clacks as every link starts offline then clicks into place. For 1, I'm pleased with the fact that it can be noticeably misaligned and still function. Though it did throw the chain after 3 miles. The slip clutch started pretty loose so by the time I'd adjusted tighter in several small steps, it had had a nice little run in (a break in of sorts that entails getting it hot and the surfaces polished).
Bathroom scale says "53lbs" with just a derailer, and cable to add, gonna come in at sub 55lbs
During the 4 mile jaunt twisted the throttle and glimpsed 55amp/29.5mph with a definitive sense of moderate acceleration. Warren may say it's impractical to power wheelie his 3210 recumpent, but I wonder if with lowesh 24mph gearing a regular Mtn style bike wouldn't power wheelie
Not much downside, I do need to pull off the rear wheel and part of the motor mounting to access an 'L' plate that holds the tensioner. It's doable, I'm into triple time as of now, the grass can grow and the kittens can track dirt into the house, but I'm a man with priorities
Crossing my fingers that the 2 speed shift comes together 1st assembly attempt, Toy Racer would likely make the main race event if I could pull that off 8)
After double checking the CA settings, then rereading CA pamplet, I went to bed. This am I'm thinking the Hi-Lo CA setup may play a role here. For whatever logic the Lo selection is for 1mOmh to 10mOmh and gives a reporting out to .01amps; the Hi selection is for up to .999mOhm and reports out to nearest .1amps. Since I have a 1mOhm shunt resistor and have the CA set for 'Lo', the display read out is a smaller (to the right of decimal) place than with the 'Hi' setting. This would provide an extra digit.
I'm a bit gun shy with a Fail situation after 20min in to running this bike back in January. Yet it occurs to me that to check this, all I need to do is apply some throttle amperage a couple of secs as I'm tootling along at 15mph
Also, in reading there is a range for the settings, and while it recommends 'Lo' for 1mOhm, the 'Hi' setting may give a more simplistic readout. It's the difference between .999mO and 1.0mO with a +/- of probably .005
Gonna reset the CA for Hi and take another spin.
Returned to the Lo setting but found I'd entered a shunt value of .1000 rather than 1.000mOhm, thus the solution to read out. The other part was the slip clutch was set very loose causing the motor to not load and kept the speed down. Dang, it operates silently, gotta go by feel rather than sound to set it.
Now with the Spooky Tooth DR this Sat, I'm Jazzed
The chain tensioner, biggest challenge of this build, is 2mm offline. It clacks as every link starts offline then clicks into place. For 1, I'm pleased with the fact that it can be noticeably misaligned and still function. Though it did throw the chain after 3 miles. The slip clutch started pretty loose so by the time I'd adjusted tighter in several small steps, it had had a nice little run in (a break in of sorts that entails getting it hot and the surfaces polished).
Bathroom scale says "53lbs" with just a derailer, and cable to add, gonna come in at sub 55lbs
During the 4 mile jaunt twisted the throttle and glimpsed 55amp/29.5mph with a definitive sense of moderate acceleration. Warren may say it's impractical to power wheelie his 3210 recumpent, but I wonder if with lowesh 24mph gearing a regular Mtn style bike wouldn't power wheelie
Not much downside, I do need to pull off the rear wheel and part of the motor mounting to access an 'L' plate that holds the tensioner. It's doable, I'm into triple time as of now, the grass can grow and the kittens can track dirt into the house, but I'm a man with priorities
Crossing my fingers that the 2 speed shift comes together 1st assembly attempt, Toy Racer would likely make the main race event if I could pull that off 8)
Whew, got 'er going. Used up half of 20Ahr batt pack this pm just cruising around 5o'clock and being as 1 with guys hanging around their race cars with a beer. Don't have the 2 speed high gear going yet, and using a small 13T FW I get a top speed of 32mph. There's a modest nice surge from 10 to 30mph. The 32mph is right at 85% of Kv and gear math. Warren's gear calculator sure dials in the speed ratios
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/e-bent/rc_drive/rc_drive_calculator.asp
Ran 4mi yesterday, the clutch ran very hot, too hot to touch and then some. A post ride inspection indiacted some belt rubbed off on the drive pulley.(Edit: actually turned out to be black material from the friction disc result of improper pulley prep by me; 3mm belt did its' job) Today the acceleration started to slack a little and the motor pulled fewer amps. Tried tightening the slipper clutch nut just 1/12th a round and acceleration came back up with the amps.
Pulled 55A which fell to 38A at top speed down a ever so gentle 1% slope; but returning up pulled 90A trending down to 50A, 0.4 mile. Quiet a difference. However, HV160 stayed around 80degree, Astro around 95degree, and clutch 100degree. I'm perplexed as to how many amps I can run without smoking the HV160 or motor. Continous is rated at 47amp, guess 62-63A would be 60sec max?
Used 10Ahr over 12miles, yet the CA stated I used 38Whr per mile. Maybe I've over planned having a 20Ahr and 30Ahr batt packs. Hope the 2 speed idea comes together
Oh, had my 1st crash, touchy front disc brake. Need some practice time to get a feel for the bike. Think it'll stop, and turn like a dream, and may do OK with power.
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/e-bent/rc_drive/rc_drive_calculator.asp
Ran 4mi yesterday, the clutch ran very hot, too hot to touch and then some. A post ride inspection indiacted some belt rubbed off on the drive pulley.(Edit: actually turned out to be black material from the friction disc result of improper pulley prep by me; 3mm belt did its' job) Today the acceleration started to slack a little and the motor pulled fewer amps. Tried tightening the slipper clutch nut just 1/12th a round and acceleration came back up with the amps.
Pulled 55A which fell to 38A at top speed down a ever so gentle 1% slope; but returning up pulled 90A trending down to 50A, 0.4 mile. Quiet a difference. However, HV160 stayed around 80degree, Astro around 95degree, and clutch 100degree. I'm perplexed as to how many amps I can run without smoking the HV160 or motor. Continous is rated at 47amp, guess 62-63A would be 60sec max?
Used 10Ahr over 12miles, yet the CA stated I used 38Whr per mile. Maybe I've over planned having a 20Ahr and 30Ahr batt packs. Hope the 2 speed idea comes together
Oh, had my 1st crash, touchy front disc brake. Need some practice time to get a feel for the bike. Think it'll stop, and turn like a dream, and may do OK with power.
etard
100 kW
Good news Will! Get that 2 speed going, you should be in the main with a little more speed. I think these Astro motors are underrated and are probably good running at thier peak for the whole Death Race.
Well if we can't fit both bikes in your car, we'll just have to race em' and see which one is faster.
See you Friday!
Well if we can't fit both bikes in your car, we'll just have to race em' and see which one is faster.
See you Friday!
Set your alarm for early Friday Dave (etard) I'll be there on time! Surmised that the little Astro would kick in and pull up around 60% Kv, yet seems to do so around 45% or 16mph when geared for 34mph. Hmmm, even if the 2 speed doesn't happen, I can gear for 38-39mph and still get on the throttle at 24mph. That's a relief, at least I get to run the Death Race.
Today ran up 2% slope for 2mile at 60-70amp, and noted a 170degree motor: (clutch runs under a cool 100 now). Only 68f(?18C) today, Tucson will be a bit warmer. So, I'm gonna guess after 1 lap it'll need to limit myself to 75amp to keep from burning up. Quip in if you have any thoughts as to how to race this 3210. Traveled 15mile, mostly WOT in low 33mph gear and used 18Ahr of 12S, right around 55W/mi according to the CA.
No further posts until after Spooky Tooth Death Race. Look for it online, several bikers are cam ready
Today ran up 2% slope for 2mile at 60-70amp, and noted a 170degree motor: (clutch runs under a cool 100 now). Only 68f(?18C) today, Tucson will be a bit warmer. So, I'm gonna guess after 1 lap it'll need to limit myself to 75amp to keep from burning up. Quip in if you have any thoughts as to how to race this 3210. Traveled 15mile, mostly WOT in low 33mph gear and used 18Ahr of 12S, right around 55W/mi according to the CA.
No further posts until after Spooky Tooth Death Race. Look for it online, several bikers are cam ready
recumpence
1 GW
Bear in mind, those Astros are good for over 300 degrees before they give up. Heat soak begins to kick-in about 200 degrees. I would not get worried at all until it is up at 180 or more. That is where the performance begins to drop off.
Matt
Matt
Finally unloaded and made it on to the track, pleasant bit of acceleration up to 37mph on straights, 20-30 thru turns, but then the belt begin to slip. Adjusting it out my last mm didn't help, put a new belt on, it wouldn't tighten. . non-sequitor
ToyRacer was a did not start DNS. Enjoyed DeathRace as a spectator, Wow! Todays inspection revealed that the jackshaft had given out(only a little true, machined out the pulley too far by 1mm on 1 side the main cause) my rookie fault of course. It was a case hardened 1/2" shaft. To fit the mini-clutch, (which I hadn't planned on installing until after DR, but space issues dictated I had to) I turned the end of the shaft down to 3/8". Well, case hardened is only hard on the surface that got turned/machined off So the remaining exposed steel was pretty soft allowing the keyway to give. Wonder if I had heated the shaft to a hot glow and then doused in water it would of held up? What a learning curve, got alot of respect for Matt's accomplishments.
Matt's system is very solid and generally overengineered as proper, it's my alternate mini design that results in minimal standards and then a lack of understanding causing a 'Fail' situation. Actually found out that I can order the mini-slipper with 1/2" bore so can order and install a new clutch on my other good jackshaft (after my month vacation) I'll put it back together and ride it for performance data.
My impression of the 3210 with the few laps I did ride was that it feels pretty peppy with initial high 90 amps, but then heat saturation sets in. The race requires everyone to take a pre-lap before lining up. With that, the little Astro may only take 30sec to get hot at high amps. Then only 60A more/less is feasible in a race where the motor is mostly loaded with not much throttle either off or running at a cruise speed. At that amp level, acceleration eased up and resulted in a 36mph top speed (39mph 90A 1st straight).
The little Astro seems very efficient when run at a level it's intended, however, there's a hi-temp point that's vague to determine. Generally, it can accelerate repeatedly up into the lo-30s mph and/or hold a cruise that fast. Short runs can be much faster.
Next post around Memorial weekend. I'll be at my Alabama camp, no Wi-Fi for 3 weeks, just me, bunch of geese, and coyotes
ToyRacer was a did not start DNS. Enjoyed DeathRace as a spectator, Wow! Todays inspection revealed that the jackshaft had given out(only a little true, machined out the pulley too far by 1mm on 1 side the main cause) my rookie fault of course. It was a case hardened 1/2" shaft. To fit the mini-clutch, (which I hadn't planned on installing until after DR, but space issues dictated I had to) I turned the end of the shaft down to 3/8". Well, case hardened is only hard on the surface that got turned/machined off
So the remaining exposed steel was pretty soft allowing the keyway to give. Wonder if I had heated the shaft to a hot glow and then doused in water it would of held up? What a learning curve, got alot of respect for Matt's accomplishments.Matt's system is very solid and generally overengineered as proper, it's my alternate mini design that results in minimal standards and then a lack of understanding causing a 'Fail' situation. Actually found out that I can order the mini-slipper with 1/2" bore so can order and install a new clutch on my other good jackshaft (after my month vacation) I'll put it back together and ride it for performance data.
My impression of the 3210 with the few laps I did ride was that it feels pretty peppy with initial high 90 amps, but then heat saturation sets in. The race requires everyone to take a pre-lap before lining up. With that, the little Astro may only take 30sec to get hot at high amps. Then only 60A more/less is feasible in a race where the motor is mostly loaded with not much throttle either off or running at a cruise speed. At that amp level, acceleration eased up and resulted in a 36mph top speed (39mph 90A 1st straight).
The little Astro seems very efficient when run at a level it's intended, however, there's a hi-temp point that's vague to determine. Generally, it can accelerate repeatedly up into the lo-30s mph and/or hold a cruise that fast. Short runs can be much faster.
Next post around Memorial weekend. I'll be at my Alabama camp, no Wi-Fi for 3 weeks, just me, bunch of geese, and coyotes
recumpence
1 GW
The wind of the specific motor affects the heat soak and efficiency at various power levels as well. The hotter the wind, the more power it will take before it gets hot. However, that increases RPM, which in turn, requires deeper reduction to work. It is a catch-22.
Anyway, I hate to design stuff and try to compete with it last minute. It is a frustrating exercise. But, much knowledge is gain in such endeavors.
Matt
Anyway, I hate to design stuff and try to compete with it last minute. It is a frustrating exercise. But, much knowledge is gain in such endeavors.
Matt
The chain tensioner proved to be my downfall as it took a week of spare time to mod & install. Actually , there is only the tiniest bit of wobble on the jackshaft, yet this combined with one side of the pulley being machined almost a mm too much; 34.75mm rather than just 34mm diameter. I was in begginning machine shop translating imperial fractions to mm when I realized I may have overshot the diameter. Yup, I did, hastily assembled on a hope and a prayer, but paid the price at Tucson w/ DNF.
Here's what's involved with slipper clutch/torque limiter: The back unit is a standard size 35ft lb torque limiter, same slip clutch as Matt's but I've already switched to a compact GT3mm 74T pulley (and painted white) in an attempt to fit the motor/drive below the BB. The mid unit is a new standard 35ft lb torque limiter dissassembled. L to R: 3/8th"wide metal press with outer set screw, 1/2" ID bore with keyway; 1st a friction disc slips on, then pulley which is machined to the exact diameter of disc and exact bore as the OD of bearing, this bearing nests under the 1st disc/pulley/2nd disc(both sides can be machined so that the inner width is a few mm up to 8mm, measures should cause belt path to line up), 4th is the orange metal press, 5th is a Belleville spring washer, on end last a nut with 2 set screws.
Foreground is the mini-slip clutch rated for 12ft lbs. The http://daltongear.thomasnet.com/vie...ings/dalton-model-osd-overload-safety-device? engineer calculated I needed about 8ft lbs for the 3210 set up geared for 3.6:1(25T:90T). I added the 3/8ths" jackshaft with step down bushing I hope will work out for the June 18th SoCal Willow Springs race. Minus Left side 1/4" press which is still on bike; The parts slide on in the same order as laid out clockwise. There are 2 smallesh Belleville Spring washers. If you use only 1, its' rated for 6ft lbs. Understand you can use a torque wrench on the outer adjustment nut. If you tighten to 10ft lbs, then the clutch slips when 10ft lbs is exceeded, catches when power applied drops below that. Oh, the pulley surface for friction discs needs to be polished out pretty smooth (No! see Matt below). Other diagrams on the Daltongear.com site can fill in all the detail measures if one wishes to do their own prep. 0.005" precision should get one by. Better yet, buy from Matt, he's got all the little glitches worked out.
It occurs that using an Astro3220 8T single stage reduction, that one could use the mini-131D slip clutch with a specially machined adapter to fit a 16T freewheel(tight clearances but doable), all in a single unit. Without the other stage of reduction, 4-7ft lbs would handle the 3220 (Edit: I've since discovered that though one could fit the little 131D, it's not up to handling the heat resulting from such slippage and would fail at 2K+ power levels)
Here's what's involved with slipper clutch/torque limiter: The back unit is a standard size 35ft lb torque limiter, same slip clutch as Matt's but I've already switched to a compact GT3mm 74T pulley (and painted white) in an attempt to fit the motor/drive below the BB. The mid unit is a new standard 35ft lb torque limiter dissassembled. L to R: 3/8th"wide metal press with outer set screw, 1/2" ID bore with keyway; 1st a friction disc slips on, then pulley which is machined to the exact diameter of disc and exact bore as the OD of bearing, this bearing nests under the 1st disc/pulley/2nd disc(both sides can be machined so that the inner width is a few mm up to 8mm, measures should cause belt path to line up), 4th is the orange metal press, 5th is a Belleville spring washer, on end last a nut with 2 set screws.
Foreground is the mini-slip clutch rated for 12ft lbs. The http://daltongear.thomasnet.com/vie...ings/dalton-model-osd-overload-safety-device? engineer calculated I needed about 8ft lbs for the 3210 set up geared for 3.6:1(25T:90T). I added the 3/8ths" jackshaft with step down bushing I hope will work out for the June 18th SoCal Willow Springs race. Minus Left side 1/4" press which is still on bike; The parts slide on in the same order as laid out clockwise. There are 2 smallesh Belleville Spring washers. If you use only 1, its' rated for 6ft lbs. Understand you can use a torque wrench on the outer adjustment nut. If you tighten to 10ft lbs, then the clutch slips when 10ft lbs is exceeded, catches when power applied drops below that. Oh, the pulley surface for friction discs needs to be polished out pretty smooth (No! see Matt below). Other diagrams on the Daltongear.com site can fill in all the detail measures if one wishes to do their own prep. 0.005" precision should get one by. Better yet, buy from Matt, he's got all the little glitches worked out.
It occurs that using an Astro3220 8T single stage reduction, that one could use the mini-131D slip clutch with a specially machined adapter to fit a 16T freewheel(tight clearances but doable), all in a single unit. Without the other stage of reduction, 4-7ft lbs would handle the 3220 (Edit: I've since discovered that though one could fit the little 131D, it's not up to handling the heat resulting from such slippage and would fail at 2K+ power levels)
recumpence
1 GW
One thing to bear in mind with these Dalton torque limiters is, when using an aluminum pulley as the center element, you do not need to worry about the surface finish because the friction discs will eventually gall to the aluminum and somewhat stick there. Then they will only slip on the steel clutch pressure plates.
These torque limiters are fantastic to use once you understand them and get them adjusted properly. All 4 of my E-bikes use them (three from Dalton and one I made myself).
Matt
These torque limiters are fantastic to use once you understand them and get them adjusted properly. All 4 of my E-bikes use them (three from Dalton and one I made myself).
Matt
The late addition, installed the day before Willow Springs race, heatsink pepped ToyRacer just enough for a Willow Springs breakthru, of sorts. The story is that a somewhat low turnout of 7 e-bikes got us combined with the unlimited bikes. My Astro3210 is very efficient, yet rated at 2.8horsepower only and was pitted against 4-10horsepower racers. The new CPU heatsink enabled me bump up from 60amps to 70amps and still have cool 160-170f motor performance.
http://www.xoxide.com/thermaltake-spinqvt-cpucooler.html
Dave/Etard and Roy/RWP had e-bikes capable of double lapping me in a 12 lap heat. Not sure though Dave had a wiring issue, motor phase wires shorted or something burned up in his Turnigy. Roy's 3220 shut down with a 230f temp reading. Luke's/LFP motor flamed early, yet was said to be rather dominate as well. Ed and I vyed back 'an forth some before he suffered flat tire (also he had a flat at DR).
At the end of the 12 lap race, 5 of our 7 e-bikes had fallen to the wayside in the combined unlimited/e-bike race, vs 3 unlimited bikes. It was sort of story of "The Last E-bike Running" yet the 3210 not only finished, it pulled respectfully for its' size. #117 (Dan) had a neat home build fat tired stoke monkey and finished just behind me. Of 11 bikes finishing, think Schwinn32 10 finished 8th or 9th, kinda the middle of the original 18 starters. My fast laps were around 1min 20sec with the leaders turning in around 1min 10sec. (There was 1 exceptionally fast 4stroke turning sub 60sec laps!)
Believe 'ToyRacer' has a wee bit more speed available and quite a bit of off the line sprinting capability to gain. Top end now should realistically go from 37mph to 40mph (heatsink bump) continous if geared and coaxed to that speed. This would be achieved with lower and/or multi-gearing.
It's so much fun tweaking this last ounce of performace of the 'Toy' Astro3210, that I think I'll stay with this little racer a while longer
http://www.xoxide.com/thermaltake-spinqvt-cpucooler.html
Dave/Etard and Roy/RWP had e-bikes capable of double lapping me in a 12 lap heat. Not sure though Dave had a wiring issue, motor phase wires shorted or something burned up in his Turnigy. Roy's 3220 shut down with a 230f temp reading. Luke's/LFP motor flamed early, yet was said to be rather dominate as well. Ed and I vyed back 'an forth some before he suffered flat tire (also he had a flat at DR).
At the end of the 12 lap race, 5 of our 7 e-bikes had fallen to the wayside in the combined unlimited/e-bike race, vs 3 unlimited bikes. It was sort of story of "The Last E-bike Running" yet the 3210 not only finished, it pulled respectfully for its' size. #117 (Dan) had a neat home build fat tired stoke monkey and finished just behind me. Of 11 bikes finishing, think Schwinn32 10 finished 8th or 9th, kinda the middle of the original 18 starters. My fast laps were around 1min 20sec with the leaders turning in around 1min 10sec. (There was 1 exceptionally fast 4stroke turning sub 60sec laps!)
Believe 'ToyRacer' has a wee bit more speed available and quite a bit of off the line sprinting capability to gain. Top end now should realistically go from 37mph to 40mph (heatsink bump) continous if geared and coaxed to that speed. This would be achieved with lower and/or multi-gearing.
It's so much fun tweaking this last ounce of performace of the 'Toy' Astro3210, that I think I'll stay with this little racer a while longer
liveforphysics
100 TW
Your bike was beautiful, and congrats in doing great in the race!
Always nice to see you.
-Luke
Always nice to see you.
-Luke
Thud
1 MW
Congrats on going the distance Sosouty!
The prize pool for the E-bikers couldn't go to a more deserving recpient!. I know you had a ton of fun!
The prize pool for the E-bikers couldn't go to a more deserving recpient!. I know you had a ton of fun!
Bakersfield e-biker Emanuel(ShinyBalls) and I headed up the Sierra Mtn.s 7/24 for a refreshing cool "Trek thru the Sky." Words fall to the ground and the basic cell phone pics are about 4 pix too vague. Our single lane black top backswitched down into chirpy frog meadows and back up to vistas of near granite 5000' walls with Mt Whitney against the sharp blue 50 mile to the north. Top feathered California Quail, Wild Belding Squirrel, and Chippy's ran just in front of our tires. Droopy eyed cud chewing cows hustled to find away off through the bushes as silent e-power put us beside 'em without alerting.
Emanuel's bike (BeastlyBeauty) ran superbly the entire ride. No bugs while rolling, different story when parked; he learned to swat down meat bees after being biten 2X's :x
My Schwinn/Astro3210 started off superbly as well. Wow, 40mph freewheeling (with some braking!) down and economical 40amp 22mph climbs (climbs too steep for just pedal power). ToyRacer was comfortable, HV160 warmed on several 15mph slow climbs, but not hot to touch. Looked as the 20amp hr pack would run 30+ miles.
I had forgotten my batt pack velcro straps so Lipo was somewhat loosely tied on. When taking a moderate bumb, seems the 14lb pack pushed a power wire up on the edge of a sharp protruding nut, and . . . Then. . . KaPlooey
Trip turned out to be a relatively short 18 miles. Yet I'm still savoring this ride, didn't mind the 9 mile return workout. The little Astro is such a nice motor for smooth touring, plenty strong if geared reasonably. Later this week, I'll find time to clean it up and see what works. (Knock, knock, knock on wood)
Emanuel's bike (BeastlyBeauty) ran superbly the entire ride. No bugs while rolling, different story when parked; he learned to swat down meat bees after being biten 2X's :x
My Schwinn/Astro3210 started off superbly as well. Wow, 40mph freewheeling (with some braking!) down and economical 40amp 22mph climbs (climbs too steep for just pedal power). ToyRacer was comfortable, HV160 warmed on several 15mph slow climbs, but not hot to touch. Looked as the 20amp hr pack would run 30+ miles.
I had forgotten my batt pack velcro straps so Lipo was somewhat loosely tied on. When taking a moderate bumb, seems the 14lb pack pushed a power wire up on the edge of a sharp protruding nut, and . . . Then. . . KaPlooey
Trip turned out to be a relatively short 18 miles. Yet I'm still savoring this ride, didn't mind the 9 mile return workout. The little Astro is such a nice motor for smooth touring, plenty strong if geared reasonably. Later this week, I'll find time to clean it up and see what works. (Knock, knock, knock on wood)
Thud
1 MW
Wow Will,
That looks like a fantastic ride....sorry to hear about the liberation of ellectrons....they so yearn to breath free, Ijust wish they wouldn't vaproise copper & leave all that soot on such a pretty frame! I am guessing you'er stuff (savethe poped wire) is just fine. knock on wood.
That looks like a fantastic ride....sorry to hear about the liberation of ellectrons....they so yearn to breath free, Ijust wish they wouldn't vaproise copper & leave all that soot on such a pretty frame! I am guessing you'er stuff (savethe poped wire) is just fine. knock on wood.
Conclusion:
ToyRacer can turn 37mph for 15min as much as level ground, no wind, 185+55lb heft can be ascertained. For torquey performance, gear below 30mph. The Willow Springs run demonstrated 70amp/46V/3.3K/3.9hp reliable power available. It placed 9th of 11 finishing bikes (18 starting) in the unlimited class. That's with a CPU heatsink, 32mph gearing and limiting excessive amps.
As the little Astro3210 stayed a relatively cool 160f (target 180f), I surmise 80amp would have been feasible. In addition, the smallesh drain on the lipos kept the voltage and thus my speed up, so an even lower gearing would have provided a tad more umphh. Lastly, a protruding slipper clutch kept me from using the lo-pedal gear so starts could be improved. Realistically, 80amp/45-48V/3.6K/4.4hp/8th place could of been achieved.
What I learned about RC:
-Matt's drive unit worked flawless, the lighter compact GT3mm pulley/belt held up with proper DIY preparation
(Matt's full size slip clutch proved handy to let friends ride w/out worry of them killing the ESC)
-mini-slipper clutch racing benefit was doubtful, eventually tightened it to not slip, took up space preventing lo-pedal gearing
-13T ACS freewheel provided useful space, yet I question use of any FW in single speed racing
-heat management thru lo-gearing, cooling, current limiting is crucial, perhaps a HV80 or 120 (vs HV160 ESC) could current limit
-hard to cook an Astro, ran 100amps to 220f thermal runaway several times, stop, cool down, ready to run again
-motor below bottom bracket difficult, but helpful to competitive kart track racing
-respect Lipo, double analyze your build to insure all is insulated
-that many experts from here will be there to help
(Note: If e-bikes weren't required to race in unlimited class in SoCal, I'd prefer to run the 3210. It' s brisk to 30mph and fast enough with the fun challenge of getting it to perform. The 3220 is a must with the unlimited environment or folks might think that humble e-bikes aren't competitive :| )
If I could afford to rebuild the 3210 8turn (alongside the 3220 build):
-get the motor built w/ hollow 7075 aluminum 1/2" shaft (fan air thru shaft)
-drill holes in motor can endcaps
-continue use of CPU heatsink (8x's the surface cooling)
-FighterCat ESC (for current limiting)
-remount motor/drive unit to allow for 2 speed rear derailer
What I'm planning for RC build II:
-larger 3220 8turn motor, not primarily for speed, for cooling, and lo-Kv that'll allow a single stage drive
-get 3220 built w/ hollow 1/2 steel shaft (1st attempt to fan air thru center of rotor; due August 2011)**
(**Edit: the 2ndary weak hot spot in Astro is the bearing grease; tolerant to 300f, crucial to cool shaft a bit & thus the bearing grease)
-create direct drive motor mount w/ chain tensioning
-drill holes to open motor can endcaps
-solder/no connnectors wiring to motor (andersons OK for 3210)
-step up to 200amp shunt (shipped)
-adapt #219 drive, need rear disc brake sprocket adapter (sketchup submitted to local machine shop)
-use of FighterCat ESC to utilize current limiting (72V 200amp sensorless unit sitting atop bike now)
-continue CPU heatsink use (sitting in build area)
-eventual 2 speed rear derailer (all parts on hand including a load of mighty DocBass epoxy to mod frame chain path)
Goal: To demostrate an easy to build electric motored bicycle that's safe (braking, handling, secure lipo) and competitive (a top 5 finisher) by the 2012 Tucson Death Race.
If anyone is interested in low mileage, tried 'an true 3210 motor/drive unit, lots of extra goodies never used, just PM me for info. I'm installing 1 of the 3210s in a suitcase folding bike. If no offer, I think the bug will bite me again, and will come back to making upgrade developments to the 3210 setup in Fall 2012. I think there's a bit more performance to be milked from the little Astros
ToyRacer can turn 37mph for 15min as much as level ground, no wind, 185+55lb heft can be ascertained. For torquey performance, gear below 30mph. The Willow Springs run demonstrated 70amp/46V/3.3K/3.9hp reliable power available. It placed 9th of 11 finishing bikes (18 starting) in the unlimited class. That's with a CPU heatsink, 32mph gearing and limiting excessive amps.
As the little Astro3210 stayed a relatively cool 160f (target 180f), I surmise 80amp would have been feasible. In addition, the smallesh drain on the lipos kept the voltage and thus my speed up, so an even lower gearing would have provided a tad more umphh. Lastly, a protruding slipper clutch kept me from using the lo-pedal gear so starts could be improved. Realistically, 80amp/45-48V/3.6K/4.4hp/8th place could of been achieved.
What I learned about RC:
-Matt's drive unit worked flawless, the lighter compact GT3mm pulley/belt held up with proper DIY preparation
(Matt's full size slip clutch proved handy to let friends ride w/out worry of them killing the ESC)
-mini-slipper clutch racing benefit was doubtful, eventually tightened it to not slip, took up space preventing lo-pedal gearing
-13T ACS freewheel provided useful space, yet I question use of any FW in single speed racing
-heat management thru lo-gearing, cooling, current limiting is crucial, perhaps a HV80 or 120 (vs HV160 ESC) could current limit
-hard to cook an Astro, ran 100amps to 220f thermal runaway several times, stop, cool down, ready to run again
-motor below bottom bracket difficult, but helpful to competitive kart track racing
-respect Lipo, double analyze your build to insure all is insulated
-that many experts from here will be there to help
(Note: If e-bikes weren't required to race in unlimited class in SoCal, I'd prefer to run the 3210. It' s brisk to 30mph and fast enough with the fun challenge of getting it to perform. The 3220 is a must with the unlimited environment or folks might think that humble e-bikes aren't competitive :| )
If I could afford to rebuild the 3210 8turn (alongside the 3220 build):
-get the motor built w/ hollow 7075 aluminum 1/2" shaft (fan air thru shaft)
-drill holes in motor can endcaps
-continue use of CPU heatsink (8x's the surface cooling)
-FighterCat ESC (for current limiting)
-remount motor/drive unit to allow for 2 speed rear derailer
What I'm planning for RC build II:
-larger 3220 8turn motor, not primarily for speed, for cooling, and lo-Kv that'll allow a single stage drive
-get 3220 built w/ hollow 1/2 steel shaft (1st attempt to fan air thru center of rotor; due August 2011)**
(**Edit: the 2ndary weak hot spot in Astro is the bearing grease; tolerant to 300f, crucial to cool shaft a bit & thus the bearing grease)
-create direct drive motor mount w/ chain tensioning
-drill holes to open motor can endcaps
-solder/no connnectors wiring to motor (andersons OK for 3210)
-step up to 200amp shunt (shipped)
-adapt #219 drive, need rear disc brake sprocket adapter (sketchup submitted to local machine shop)
-use of FighterCat ESC to utilize current limiting (72V 200amp sensorless unit sitting atop bike now)
-continue CPU heatsink use (sitting in build area)
-eventual 2 speed rear derailer (all parts on hand including a load of mighty DocBass epoxy to mod frame chain path)
Goal: To demostrate an easy to build electric motored bicycle that's safe (braking, handling, secure lipo) and competitive (a top 5 finisher) by the 2012 Tucson Death Race.
If anyone is interested in low mileage, tried 'an true 3210 motor/drive unit, lots of extra goodies never used, just PM me for info. I'm installing 1 of the 3210s in a suitcase folding bike. If no offer, I think the bug will bite me again, and will come back to making upgrade developments to the 3210 setup in Fall 2012. I think there's a bit more performance to be milked from the little Astros