System (U, Motor, Controller) Efficiency

I am curious how you guys are coming up with these numbers. The formula Efficiency = Watts/mile but then you appear to be using
watt hours / miles. Current x voltage = watts..... how are you getting watt hours?
 
You can't have watts per mile. You could calculate your average watts over a mile. Watts is an instananeous measure of power. The units of energy used are normally watt-hours, so you measure the rate of using it as watt-hours per mile.
 
Here is my data for my Christiania cargo trike

It's for a 28km trip to the city, around and back which is quite normal use of this bike.
Weight of me+bike+child = 170kg (375lbs) and the bike has the aerodynamic shape of a brick :roll:

1. Efficiency: 14 Wh/km (23 Wh/mi)
2. Speed: 18 km/h on average (11 Mph)
3. Gradient: +/- 3%, mostly flat
4. Pedaling effort: Normal (approx. 100W)
5. Bike Type: Christiania Cargo Trike
6. Motor Model: Bafang BBS02 48V 750W Middrive
7. Controller Model: Build into the motor, medium PAS used, and a little throttle uphill
8. Battery: 48V 30Ah LiFePO4 16s Prismatic Pouches
9. Gearing: NuVinci N171B Autoshift

/Philip
 
Our riding is mainly recreational urban cruising, with regular stops for frisbee... stats from the last 40km (25 mile) ride:

1. Efficiency - 6.3 wh/km (10.3 Wh/mile)
2. Speed - Average speed 19.4 kmh (12 mph)
3. Gradient (%) - dunno, not great though.
4. Average pedal cadence 52.4 rpm (I like to pedal)
5. Bike - Chinese dual suspension 26", NuVinci N360, No PAS (disabled) but CA cruise control.
6. Motor - Tonaro "200w" mid drive (does 900+w)
7. Controller - Grinfineon 20A
8. Battery - 48v 10Ah LiFePo4
Total Watts - 258w
Total current - 5.4A
 
One commuting trip (one direction), as posted to the Trip Analyzer [1] below, comes out like this:

1. Efficiency: 3 Watt-Hrs/mile!
2. Speed: 8 mph including stopped time; 11 mph excluding stopped time. Lots of stop signs and traffic signals on my commute.
3. Gradient: Net -0.17%: 221 meters gain minus 235 meters drop. Negate each of those for the reverse commute, of course.
4. Pedaling effort: Easy but wide-range cadence windup to 6 MPH with PAS off (easy; it's low gears) then moderate to hard with PAS on, modulating the NuVinci for constant-cadence @ a slow 45 RPM.
5. Bike Type: Cargo bike, Grin-Stoked CA V3 Xtracycle Edgerunner having Patterson 2-speed freewheeling crank (1:1 straight thru, 1:1.6 overdrive), 39 T chainring adapter, Right-Side-(mid-chain)-Drive & motor bracket strain gauge for PAS, NuVinci 360 rear hub CVT
6. Motor Model: Grin Tech 2nd Gen Stokemonkey 36 V ~600 W
7. Controller Model: Grin Tech 25 Amp
8. Battery: 36 V LiMn 14 Ah

I can't take credit for this build or its design; that's all due to the good people at Grin Tech who, for a short while, offered this design fully assembled.

No regen; don't seem to need it at this efficiency. Got two weeks' commuting + side-trips (168 miles) on 1st battery charge.

Several unusual settings make this possible:
* Throttle not used; Pedal assist modes only
* Power Assist enabled only above 6 mph thru 13 mph. I do all the initial accel to 6 mph. I don't want fast starts, don't want to go any faster than 13 powered. Lots of peds, other bikes, busses and of course cars on my commute. These settings work right for my neighborhood.
* Power limit set to 250 Watts
* Switch to higher Patterson gear once reaching near cruising speed; assist power goes down to well less than 50 Watts
* Once under PAS power, use the NuVinci to drive it constant-cadence, more-or-less, at whatever torque and speed that yields a non-tiring ride.

Lots of others on bikes pass me; no matter. I can bring home a big load of groceries as it's a cargo bike.

A good fit for my needs. According to [2], 3 Wh/mile works out to 11,234 MPGe!

============
[1] CA V3 Trip Analyzer log here: http://www.ebikes.ca/tripanalyzer/index.php?trip=92tP78
[2] http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=What+is+3+Wh+per+mile+in+MPGe%3F
 
Something's not right with your calculation. Most controllers use about 4w on standby. 3wh per mile is an average of 24w. Take off the 4w for the controller means 20w from your motor, which doesn't sound right for a 600w motor. How did you measure it?
 
Comparing someone else's "System Efficiency" to yours is pretty much a useless exercise as everyone's riding conditions are different. Heck my own "System Efficiency" for my 3 E-bikes has varied this season from a low of 5.5 Wh/mi over 34 miles at an average trip speed of 16.4 mph to a high of 29.5 Wh/mi over 3 miles at an average speed of 20.8 mph. So if I have THIS much variation between my own rides how useful is the data to anyone else?

That said, if I ride my bikes in the same manner; that is trying to provide the same pedal input over the same course with the same average trip speed I CAN MAKE meaningful comparisons between MY BIKES. My Townie cruiser uses the most battery power, my flat bar road bike uses the least and my "trekking" bike is somewhere in between.

NOW if this thread had some basic parameters to meet then it might be of some use. For example specify that the ride must be a loop of 10-20 miles with an elevation change of less than so and so feet with an average trip mph of say 18 mph with NO pedaling and then with pedaling your ass off...well then it might be meaningful. :p

-R
 
d8veh said:
Something's not right with your calculation. Most controllers use about 4w on standby. 3wh per mile is an average of 24w. Take off the 4w for the controller means 20w from your motor, which doesn't sound right for a 600w motor. How did you measure it?

At a stop, this bike's CA V3 shows 0.00 Amps at 40.3 Volts = Zero Watts:

Zero-Watts-Until-It-Goes.jpg

Because I've set the CA V3 ( which sends PAS-based signal to the controller ) /not to power the motor at all/ until the bike reaches 6 MPH. So it stays at zero Watts until I hit 6 MPH, and kicks in and I get PAS. Also, I've set it to quit adding electric power if the bike goes over 13 MPH, result being -- I don't usually go over 13 MPH :) .

As for the calculations themselves, I let the Grin Tech Trip Analyzer website do the integration ( calculations ) based on my Analogger's 5 Hz files. Here [1] is the same trip on another day -- calculating out to less than 3 Wh/mile. Suggest changing the X-Axis to Time, then selecting Human Watts (HWatts) and (e-)Watts as the data graphed. There are plenty of regions where HWatts are double-digits below 50 W while (e-)Watts are zero or single digits.

Only at startups (clear when the X-axis is changed from Miles to Tme, where a long all-zeros region precedes) one can see triple digit power amounts, but they taper off quickly.

It's a very flat route and by no means "typical". Through the settings I've disabled the throttle, so only PAS mode applies motor power -- and it tends to taper down to a double- or even single-digit value depending on my gear settings.


===================

[1] http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/trip-analyzer.html?trip=C31wco
 
Here's a closer look at the first mile of this 3 Wh/mile, 4+ mile trip ( the whole thing at http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/trip-analyzer.html?trip=C31wco ) on the Grin Tech Trip Analyzer page

You can see the bike is doing a bit less work than I am by eyeballing the area under the "HWatts" ("Human Watts") Green curve versus the (electrical, motor) Watts curve ( Blue curve ). Both of us stay under about 50 Watts except when starting up from a stop, and there the motor outpowers me :D .

Trip-Section-First-Mile.png

If you visit the link above, section off a snall amount of the trip where a section starts from zero MPH (put the X-axis in "Time"; without that no data show where the bike is stopped - as no mileage advances :eek: ). It's possible to see how I've set the PAS not to kick in until 6MPH.

I have noticed that even in my hot Southern Calif mornings (80+ degrees) I don't break a sweat on a 4+ mile commute like this -- for me that means keeping my average Human Watts below 50 -- the NuVinci helps a lot with that; I can keep my cadence and torque constant and let both the bike speed and PAS power just arrive at whatever speed and power air resistance, road slope, tire friction, other aspects of bike engineering and physics allow. It doesn't end up being fast.

Clearly both the motor and rider put the most power into acceleartion -- but that doesn't take a lot of the total mileage or time of the trip, so the Wh/Mile seems more dependent on how low the power goes just to maintain speed. This bike seems quite efficient at that on my flat-landed commute; we both keep it under 50 Watts and neither of us breaks a sweat :D .

If I switched the assist level from its present 48% of power to 99%, I'd expect the Wh/Mile to double to about 6 Wh/mile :mrgreen: .
 
d8veh said:
Something's not right with your calculation. Most controllers use about 4w on standby. 3wh per mile is an average of 24w. Take off the 4w for the controller means 20w from your motor, which doesn't sound right for a 600w motor. How did you measure it?

My WU meter also doesn't register anything when the controller is idle. Other than that there is no secret to les-car's 3 Wh/mile power consumption...the guy rides VERY slowly! The stats for his 4 mile trip peg his average speed at under 9 MPH.

-R
 
Ive only had my bike running for a week but in that week ive done just over 200km and so far my stats on my CAV3 are :

1. Efficiency (13Watts/km) = 20.8Watts/Mile
2. Speed (30kph) = 18mph
3. Gradient = 0 to 3% (only 1 short 150m long hill)
4. Pedaling effort (light to none)
5. Bike Type ( MTB Specialized BigHit) 24" rear wheel
6. Motor Model (Crystalyte H4040)
7. Controller Model (Grin Tech 7240)
8. Battery (21s5p) 87Volts full / LVC = 70Volts
 
Did some "worst case" measurements......

Zero pedaling, nearly always full throttle.

Still the Bafang BBS01 18A36V. Now 5100km old.

1.) 13Wh/km
2.) 30-38 at the mayor part of the trips, 25-29 in average (did 1 in each direction, 27km over all)
3.) Flat
4.) None
5.) Cannondale Prophet with Continental Race Kings 2.2 (i weight about 80 kg)
6.) BBS01
8.) Konion V3 10s8p
 
New build.....

Qulbix Raptor
20s19p samsung 25r
MXUS v2 4t @24 inch bicycle rim
Adaptto Max-E @60A battery and 120A phase
Flat areas
Pedaling middle to heavy

1905426-mwqo36118j1u-2015_09_2823_13_24-medium.jpg
 
Averages over 305km (190 miles) 3,191 watt hours (over my regular 30km commute each way https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L-g-3q41Qc http://nz.mapometer.com/cycling/route_4242312.html ).

1. Efficiency 10.5 whrs/km (16.8 watt hours per mile)
2. Speed 31 kph - (19mph).
3. Gradient: 31km commute two hills short distance 15% couple of km 10% (ascent/descent 400m)
4. Pedaling: effort: medium
5. Bike: Merida Crossway 29er MTB with Continental comfort 47mm
6. Motor: BBSHD
7.Controller: BBSHD integrated
8. 52v (14S) 8p Samsung 35E 1400 watt hours
Weight of bike/rider 110kg
 
I have been very pleased with how efficient this set-up has been especially while pulling a very heavily laden (for the trailer) converted kid hauler. :)

1. Efficiency: 20 - 30 Wh/Mile (mainly dependent on how fast I accelerate, and as I can just put it on the charger when I get to work, I usually try to keep up with traffic on the one road I don't have a bike path the whole way.)

2. Speed: 15 MPH average (peaking around 30 MPH in parts of my commute to work)

3. Gradient: 5 miles round trip no real hills to speak of

4. Pedaling: Zero (at least until I get a new spindle as this one is shot as I like to pedal :wink: )

5. Bike: Micargi Bronco Stretched Cruiser with 24 inch wheels (114lbs + 150lb approximate trailer)

6. Motor: Cro Motor as mid-drive with NuVinci N171B CVT in rear wheel, one chain for the motor, one for the pedals, both use the NuVinci's gearing.

7. Controller: Lyen 12FET Extreme Modder (running at 72v , 25 amps max)

8. Battery: 20s 4p Li-Ion (Lunacycles' 72v 11.6 AH) with 50 amp BMS

Gross Weight: 180lb rider + 114lb bike + 150lb trailer = 444 Total.
 
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