The new Qute Q100H motor

[fellow]

Anything aside from stronger springs that might help?

You can try to put some ATF oil thru the disc screw hole to loosen it up. I understand that the stronger springs are the cure for the "slippery" clutch, not the frozen one? The clutch is on the other side, so it will probably take some time before it ends up everywhere.

 

[Ykick]

Anything aside from stronger springs that might help?

I understand that the stronger springs are the cure for the "slippery" clutch, not the frozen one?

Both - as the roller starts eating stock thin wire spring it can jam a roller into engaged position. Or, at least one of the rollers.

For my purposes it's really not about the compression strength of the spring as much as the wire gauge it's wound from. I found thick wire springs don't get eaten by the roller/ramp as much as OEM thin wire ballpoint pen springs.

BTW, I ran one motor without any springs for extended period and it worked okay although every once in a while it would fail to engage which sounds like Hell and can bring on serious butt-pucker crossing a busy intersection.

 

[Sunder]

You can try to put some ATF oil thru the disc screw hole to loosen it up. I understand that the stronger springs are the cure for the "slippery" clutch, not the frozen one? The clutch is on the other side, so it will probably take some time before it ends up everywhere.

I was thinking of doing that anyway. I know it's impossible to totally stop the leaks, but where are the biggest areas that it leaks from, so I can focus on sealing that with silicone before I put the ATF? I was thinking of getting an o-ring for the main cover, though from the number of turns, it might not even leak from there.

Brake disc holes?

Axle?

Anywhere else?

 

[Sunder]

can bring on serious butt-pucker crossing a busy intersection.

I so did not need that image...

But thanks for the other advice

 

[motomech]

You can try to put some ATF oil thru the disc screw hole to loosen it up. I understand that the stronger springs are the cure for the "slippery" clutch, not the frozen one? The clutch is on the other side, so it will probably take some time before it ends up everywhere.

I was thinking of doing that anyway. I know it's impossible to totally stop the leaks, but where are the biggest areas that it leaks from, so I can focus on sealing that with silicone before I put the ATF? I was thinking of getting an o-ring for the main cover, though from the number of turns, it might not even leak from there.

Brake disc holes?

Axle?

Anywhere else?

The oil weeps pass the "sealed" main bearings on the axle.
There really is no way to stop it altogther.
The best way is to keep the level low, well below the axle.
Still, I never could keep the oil off my rear brake disc, which soaked into the pads and rendered the brake useless.

 

[spinningmagnets]

There are custom seals and fling-discs, and other methods to control oil seepage onto a brake disc...they just haven't been tried yet, to identify the simplest/cost-effective options.

 

[vwhammer]

I agree.
If its a round hole with a round shaft through it then there is likely a seal that can be put in place.
I may look into this myself if I do too much tinkering with my Q100H.

 

[motomech]

Maybe you should take a look abd twkk us to do it before you deem it "likely".
There is no excess metal to cut a bosses for dedicated oil seals.
Rather than talking about how to fix a problem Q100's doesn't have, maybe it's time to start building
If one is over-heating a Q100, you should be using a bigger motor.

 

[fellow]

I've reinforced the Q100H 201 rpm clutch using the Ykick thick spring(s) wire method, and it is working. 1kw@5-6 seconds (500W cont at 75V, and less than 30A phase current@1 second)) is at the very edge of what Q100H clutch is capable of when used without the ATF oil (dry clutch). I feel that some kind of DCTF (Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid) would help keeping this kind of power under control (wet clutch).

What is the power limit limit of the 201rpm@48V 145mm Q128H clutch?

 

[Sunder]

Any chance you can link the specification of the spring you used?

Think I might do this during the major overhaul I want to do over Christmas

 

[fellow]

I've used the D=3.5mm spring that I've found in my garage drawer. It was 200mm long before cutting it to the right length! 3.5mm is the smallest diameter you can use, smaller than that and it becames unstable and wobbles in the spring hole holder.

Q100H 201rpm@36V clutch springs technical data
Spring holder hole diameter: d=4mm.
Outer diameter of the spring: 4mm<D<3.5mm.
Spring wire thickness: As thick as possible.
Spring tension: As strong as possible. Ball pen springs do fit, but you need much stronger ones.
Spring length: Approx 20mm. Cut it as tight (as long) as possible. If you do curse during the install, the length is perfect. If they do not fit, cut them and try again. If it's too easy to install, you need a longer spring.
Total number of springs needed: 3

Edit: Changed the diameter value from 3.2mm to the correct 3.5mm.

 

[Sunder]

I've used the 3.2mm spring that I've found in my garage drawer. It was 200mm long before cutting it to the right length! 3.2mm is the smallest diameter you can use, smaller than that and it becames unstable and wobbles in the spring hole holder.

Q100H 201rpm@36V clutch springs technical data
Spring holder hole diameter: d=4mm.
Outer diameter of the spring: 4mm<D<3.2mm.
Spring wire thickness: As thick as possible.
Spring tension: As strong as possible. Ball pen springs do fit, but you need much stronger ones.
Spring length: Approx 20mm. Cut it as tight (as long) as possible. If you do curse during the install, the length is perfect. If they do not fit, cut them and try again. If it's too easy to install, you need a longer spring.
Total number of springs needed: 3

Thanks. I'm always uncomfortable when I'm buying something on the very edge of specification, but this was the closest I could find:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wire-Dia-0-6mm-Steel-Spring-Compression-Spring-OD-4-10mm-Long-5-50mm-Select-Size/281771562710?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140106155344%26meid%3Dd865b265ac1745d5993b5f27e71ed38f%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D271955174184

I'm getting the 4 x 20mm and 4 x 25mm springs to see which one fits better.

If 4mm is just too big, do you think it'd be safe to machine out a few microns of material to make it fit? Sorry for the newb questions, I haven't had a look at how the spring mechanism works yet.

 

[fellow]

You can always try to use a small screwdriver to force the spring inside the hole. Springs can change diameter few microns if winded/unwinded/forced inside the hole. If I remeber it correctly, ball pen springs are 4.2mm outer diameter and those can be persuaded to fit inside the 4mm clutch hole (partly because of the thin wire diameter). I've just measured both the original and the spring I've replaced it with.

Measured above: What's left of the original spring.

Original spring outer diameter: 3.85mm
Original spring wire thickness 0.35mm
Original spring lenght: Broken/destroyed, can not measure. Biggest bit is 10mm.
Original spring number of turns: approx 10 turns per every 10mm of the length

My replacement spring wire thickness: 0.75mm
My replacement spring, number of turns: approx 10 turns per every 10mm of the length.
I've even re-measured the replacement spring diameter. It is 3.5mm and not the 3.2mm I've written before. I've tested several springs and got confused . I'll edit that in the post above for the future reference. There was a lot of clearence inside the hole = not tight.
Measured above: My replacement spring. Smaller spring is what's left of the original.

 

[Sunder]

If it rubs against the side of the sleeve, surely that will reduce the spring force?

150 microns shouldn't be hard to remove from the sleeve, and I don't think it would weaken anything or interfere with anything, so I'll see how it goes. As you said, it was loose, so I might not need to do anything.

Thanks for your help on this.

 

[motomech]

this was a response to a post that hs been deleted

 

[chas58]

Wow, elifebike got their store back on line.

Too bad they are on holiday the next 7 days...

 

[martx007]

As a dog returns to it's vomit so a fool returns to his folly.....

In my previous response I mentioned I couldn't get the q100h to mate with the lsw675/kingmeter and gave up on that and went back to using the ku/led combo.

I've been using my q100H and put on 8000km trouble free km's with the old led/controller combo then a couple of weeks decided I wanted to use the sine wave/kingmeter I had bought and never used from bmsb with my standard q100. That's worked fine but I kept having a nagging thought I still wanted the q100H with the new lsw675 setup as I like the kingmeter screen. So I've tried again.

With the wheel off the ground the q100H responded fine now, with pas and throttle so I though happy days. Tightened everything up and went for a spin. No go. If I feather the throttle really gently it does work but as soon as the wattage on the kingmeter shows anything over 200w I hear a clunk in the q100H and no power. I then have to feed the throttle in unrealistically gently below 200w for it to work.
As there is a programmable lead on this controller does anyone think there may be something I can do to it?
But I can't find software or a connector on bmsb website.
cheers
Martin

 

[d8veh]

Was there a manual to download or that display? There might be a parameter you have to set like P1 in the KT contoller, which is the number of magnets times the reuction ratio. It seems to affect the smooth running of the motor.

 

[Sunder]

Man, this forum provides without asking. I just switched to Justin's Phaserunner last night. Works like a dream except if I apply power too quickly. It then does a loud "clack" noise and I lose power for a few seconds. It usually comes back without a reset, but a couple times I had to reset the controller.

I'm using 202 as the number of magnet poles, which from my research is the same setting as p1 in the S06/S12 series controllers.

I want to play around with it more - I saw some variables to limit the rate of change in current, so maybe that would smooth it out.

Please let me know if you find out what it is, and I'll do the same.

 

[Sunder]

Being a touch lazy here, but still hope Fellow or someone else can help:

Got my springs, there's a chance I'll get at least 2 hours this weekend to try to install them, but as you might note, 2 hours is not a lot of time, and I really need the bike back together by the Monday, so I'm hoping I can get some advice up front to lower the chance that I'll be left with parts of a bike instead of a bike to ride come next week.

Any chance I can get tips on removing and replacing the springs and rollers? I know how to disassemble and reassemble the basic assembly, I have watched how roller clutches work, and it doesn't look too difficult, but I think that always belies the reality of a job.

For example, is the roller held in by any kind of retainer? Is the spring only held in by the roller? Tips for compressing the spring while you replace the roller? Any gotchas that will save me time basically.

Any tips appreciated. Thanls.

 

[d8veh]

It's really simple. You remove the three screws on the outside of the the side-plate and the the three screws that hold the cover plate on the inside. Everything then comes apart. You have to rotate the inner in the forward direction a little bit to unlock the rollers before you can slde the inner from the outer. It might be an idea to do that bit in a box so that you don't lose a roller. Mine was rusty, so I removed one roller at a time before tapping the inner out. Make sure you make a note of which way the ramps point or which side is the outside because the clutch inner can be reassembled either way up. If you get it the wrong way, the clutch will work in the wrong direction - backwards instead of forwards.

It's a bit tricky to get the rollers back in: Put the inner part into the outer without the rollers. Insert a spring, then use a thin blade to compress it fully while you drop in the roller. Repeat for the other two rollers, then reassemble the inner cover plate. It's probably a good idea to use Loctite on those screws.

Here you can see the clutch from the outside after removing it from the side-plate. It's a Q100C, but the clutch is the same:



And here you can see the three screws on the inside that hold the inner cover plate:



Here it is with the inner cover plate removed.

 

[Sunder]

Thanks D8veh. That gives me a lot more confidence to give this a go this weekend.

Cheers.

 

[Sunder]

Okay. I managed to pull it out this weekend, but the bad news is that a 4.0mm spring, won't fit into a 4.0mm hole.

I'm going to see if I can get enough machined off the inside to get the springs to fit.

Can easily see why these don't last long. In the photo below, I really only managed to salvage two springs. The third one was torn to shreds and you can see little bits of it all over the photo.



The larger new spring in the centre is what I intended to replace it with. Not sure if I'm going to have to cut it shorter to fit. Will find out once I machine the holes.

 

[d8veh]

Was the spring broken before you tried to get it out? If, so, that would make your clutch slip, so you don't need stronger springs. I've been thinking about this. The springs only are supposed to put the roller in the right position. The rotation wedges he roller. I don't think stronger springs will help. They could make it worse because they will hold the roller against he ring, which will make it rotate againt the spring. Also it'll cause a lot of drag when freewheeling.

 

[Sunder]

The springs were definitely broken, and the clutch was definitely slipping. But that makes perfect sense to me. The spring appears to hold some tension, pushing the roller against the two surfaces, so that it can lock the clutch, right?

A stronger spring is probably less desirable as you need more reverse force to unlock the clutch, i.e. freewheel it, as you said. However, to get a thicker wire that doesn't get chewed up, thats a trade off, right?

I'm a little confused as to why you think i don't need stronger springs if the clutch is slipping unless all you're saying is get a spring that is not stronger but still more resistant to getting chewed up.