The new Qute Q100H motor

[Ykick]

I mentioned earlier I’ve run these clutches without any springs. Works fine 99% of the time but every once in a while it would’t lock up and I don’t like that.

My use of “thicker/heavier” springs has nothing to do with any desire for “stronger” springs. I just want something with thicker wire so it won’t get eaten by the roller so easily and cause erratic clutch problems.

 

[Sunder]

So the ideal condition then, would be to cut the spring, so that it is in it's fully expanded state, when it's only *just* holding the spring in the right position?

In that case, the 20mm springs I bought are probably too long. I'll probably trim them to ~10-11mm.

 

[fellow]

Just for the future reference, 0.7mmx4mm L=10mm, 15mm, 20mm and 25mm springs are here: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wire-Dia-0-7mm-Steel-Spring-Compression-Spring-OD-4-12mm-Long-5-50mm-Select-Size-/271955241211?var=&hash=item3f51cba8fb:m:mR0lyag6PhMOw-4w8007JjQ

 

[d8veh]

I think that probably the spring wasn't installed properly, which caused it to get caught under the roller. Then, chewed up bits of spring stopped the clutch from working. I don't think it was anything to do with how much power you put through it.

 

[Sunder]

I think that probably the spring wasn't installed properly, which caused it to get caught under the roller. Then, chewed up bits of spring stopped the clutch from working. I don't think it was anything to do with how much power you put through it.

Chewed up spring bits can definitely cause the clutch to either lock up or refuse to engage, there's no doubt about that.

Considering how the clutch works, pushing it to engage with the inner and outer rings, but then relying on friction to jam the two rings together to transmit power, I also doubt that higher power directly causes the spring to break. However, it's not hard to see how the other way - backing off from a higher speed - could cause the roller to trap part of the spring and chew it.

I just don't believe it was a failed install, as both clutches I pulled apart had all three springs chewed substantially. One so substantially, I didn't even see the remnant inside the hole at first. That would mean 6 of 6 "failed" installs. Too high even for Chinese budget manufacturing.

Either way, I think a thicker spring wire with the absolute minimum amount of spring tension to return to a position where forward motion would cause the roller to roll even further forward to jam, while a minimal amount of "reverse" motion would compress the spring enough to disengage the clutch, should fix this problem.

 

[motomech]

The two springs I need to replace on one of my Q100's Sprage clutchs, I mis-intalled. And I was trying to be careful too.
(need to double check the placement by moving the roller up &down.)

 

[Sunder]

Could you explain how you mis-installed the spring? I can't see any logical way that it could go in incorrectly, but my springs were all so damaged that I wouldn't have been able to tell what the correct way was.

Thanks.

 

[d8veh]

Three chewed springs is interesting. I wasn't expecting that. It must be that when the clutch locks, the rollers are locked too, but if you overpower it, the rollers slip on one side, so they start to rotate and drag the spring with them. If that's what happens, thicker spring wire might help.

 

[jmz]

My 201rpm Q100H is playing up a bit. A year of thrashing it at 1 kW is probably catching up to me.

It started by seemingly dropping out when going over bumps, it would lose power and the displayed speed would drop to zero like if the clutch had disengaged. I'm not sure why that wouldn't result in it just internally overspeeding and showing like it was going really fast though.

It was doing something similar today, the torque would drop away but it would still show a power draw of 50-100W. I 'fixed' it by giving it maximum power with the the front wheel locked, it seemed back to normal again.

I'm going to have to open it up and check out the clutch right?

 

[Sunder]

The only thing I can think of that would even vaguely result in those symptoms, would be the rollers wearing away and not getting a good grip to lock the inner and outer rings of the clutch together.

That's really weird. Would have thought many other things would break before that happened. Did you oil cool yours, or remove any of the grease or anything? Any funny noises before this happened?

 

[d8veh]

The other guys found that the the springs that push the rollers had got mangled, which compromises the surface and stops the rollers from gripping. You can probably repair it with spring that you can get from Ebay for next to nothing.

 

[Sunder]

Not sure if this helps anyone, but I'll record it here for future searches that might come up for people.

The 4.0mm spring does NOT fit in by default. I machined it out using a 4.2mm drill tip. It's still snug at 4.2mm, but slipped in with only the smallest amount of force.

Cutting the spring to 8mm makes it just beyond flush and it appeared to touch the roller in its locked position, but apply no force, so I went 10mm, and it was a tiny bit fiddly to get the roller in, but it definitely pushes the roller into place. Using a screw driver, it can disengage the roller, but it does not appear to disengage when I spin it by hand. I haven't gone for a ride yet, but I'm really hoping it will disengage when coasting. It is possible the spring was a bit *too* strong. But still, better a clutch that engages every single time, and doesn't always disengage, than a clutch that disengages every time, but doesn't always engage.

I should note with the above measurements, two of the holes were identical at 6mm deep, but one was shallower at just over 5mm, so for best results, measure yourself using a high precision caliper with a depth guage.

Hope this helps anyone making the same modification.

 

[motomech]

My 201rpm Q100H is playing up a bit. A year of thrashing it at 1 kW is probably catching up to me.

It started by seemingly dropping out when going over bumps, it would lose power and the displayed speed would drop to zero like if the clutch had disengaged. I'm not sure why that wouldn't result in it just internally overspeeding and showing like it was going really fast though.

It was doing something similar today, the torque would drop away but it would still show a power draw of 50-100W. I 'fixed' it by giving it maximum power with the the front wheel locked, it seemed back to normal again.

I'm going to have to open it up and check out the clutch right?

I would be looking at all the wiring connections.

 

[kurtster]

OK, so I've now decided to get the Q100, but am undecided whether to go for a "H" or "C" version. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
The bike in question is a folder with ETRTO 451 wheels. The front wheel having a through-axle means a rear-wheel installation. BMS doesn't sell 451 wheels, but from what I've read a 406 (aka, "20-incher") with a big tire should have about the same diameter.

In another thread, motomech mentioned...

the "H" can make more power, but the C with a cassette shifts better than the DNP.

Since it will be ridden on a long, flat commute with little shifting except for stopping/starting at dozens of traffic lights, the "H" would get the nod here. However, the fastest wind of the Q100H is 260rpm while the Q100C is 328. For a small wheeler, would that matter?

 

[Sunder]

OK, so I've now decided to get the Q100, but am undecided whether to go for a "H" or "C" version. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
The bike in question is a folder with ETRTO 451 wheels. The front wheel having a through-axle means a rear-wheel installation. BMS doesn't sell 451 wheels, but from what I've read a 406 (aka, "20-incher") with a big tire should have about the same diameter.

In another thread, motomech mentioned...

the "H" can make more power, but the C with a cassette shifts better than the DNP.

Since it will be ridden on a long, flat commute with little shifting except for stopping/starting at dozens of traffic lights, the "H" would get the nod here. However, the fastest wind of the Q100H is 260rpm while the Q100C is 328. For a small wheeler, would that matter?

All obviously depends whether your goal is higher top speed or more torque at a lower speed.

The C is for cassette. The motor is thinner to accomdate the freehub. So it produces less power. Or rather handles less. Since you can push as much power as you want through a motor until it melts.

Do the maths to figure out how fast a 328 will get you vs a 260. If 260 is fast enough, no reason to go th cassette version. If its not fast enough and you haven't bought the battery yet, consider getting a higher voltage battery to boost speed.

If you can't figure out the maths, I can do it once i'm not on my phone.

 

[motomech]

Good advice from sunder
Kustster, You can model those motors on the motor simulator at Ebike CA. The Q100 328 is on the motor list and for the Q100 H (260), you can substitute the Outrider std.

 

[kurtster]

Great idea. I didn't realise they're listed on the simulator. Yes...top speed vs torque. Although a higher top speed is welcome, given the sheer number of stops and starts on my route, I'm learning toward the torque winding. Plus, if I overvolt it, I might have my cake and eat it too.

[edit] Just looking now and don't see the Q100 on the list. Does it have another moniker?

 

[motomech]

I told you, sub the Outrider Std. for the 260 H.
It's really a MXUS 260 and I have used both and they are very close in speed and power..

 

[motomech]

Well, I have been dissing the idea of mixing different speed motors for a long while, I've changed my mind and am going to give it a try.
My two 201s have nice snap(when the Lipo is fresh), but come up several mphs short(20 mph on 12S).
The two 328s will get up to 27 to 28 mph, but I care not to go that fast and there is a pronounced flat spot in the mid-range(which I could perhaps "Amp out").
No doubt a pair of 260s would be just right(top speed of 24 mph), but I am reluctant to give up my cassette.
So, here is the plan, 260 H on the frt. and retrain the 328 Q100C on the rear.
I've had single motor 260s on the frt. before and they were fine all-around performers on 12S, topping out at 22 to 23 mph.
Where the single 260 falls short is fairly steep hills and there have been a few times where I had to get off and push. The 201 is a little better, but it's still a mini and only digs a little deeper.

I should be able to use the bike in two ways;
First-Use the 328C only as an assist bike as I have been doing. Going slow in the flat, this motor forces me to really put a leg into it. This not really an efficient system, but overall power usage is low. Low enough that I more battery than I need(or want) to keep pedaling hard.
Second-For scooting around town, the 260H is the primary mover with the 328C helping out on the bottom and the top end. It can add it's paultry "helping hand" from a standing start, but more importantly, it can really add to the 260's top speed.
According to the trusty Ebike CA sim., the two can combine for a top speed of 26 mph, 600 W from the 328C and 100 W from the 260. But at that speed, the 260's efficiency has fallen to a meager 65%. A more sensible cruise looks to be 25 mph, where both motors would be in the low 80s % efficiency range.
At any rate, I have a 260H on the way and I just need to build some more wheels. Should be testing in a couple of weks.

 

[DuncanDK]

How does the Q100H handle 36V and @46V for 85+KG rider?

I saw the following speeds and comments for the NON-h Q100... (see quote below)
Has anyone a similar list for the Q100H?

Maybe we can put such a list together for Q110H @36V and 48V???
Please provide your experiences.... I have a particular interest in the Q100H RPM 260 top speed @36V and @ 48V in a 700C wheel

Sincerely yours
Duncan

This is what I have found with non H versions:
RPM = speed (26" or 700c wheel)
200 = 15.4 mph (verified by myself and others)
260 = 20mph (verified by many here)
300 = 23mph (this is my daily ride (requires significant rider input or dual motors))
328 = 25mph (my bike + lots of leg work, or dual motor builds here).

 

[AF7JA]

At the present I have a Q100 (201 RPM), non-Q, that I use for commuting with a 36V battery and 700c tyres. Can anyone advise what spares I should order in advance?

Sources of the spares would also be appreciated.

 

[motomech]

There are no spares for that motor, but they cost less than $100.
Save up for a 48V battery.

 

[AF7JA]

There are no spares for that motor, but they cost less than $100.
Save up for a 48V battery.

Thanks; as far as a higher voltage, if, and when, I build a more 'fun' build, I will go with higher voltage and speed. This is a commuter build, my priorities are different. I might go with more capacity; but I doubt I would change the voltage.

 

[fellow]

How does the Q100H handle 36V and @46V for 85+KG rider?

201rpm version is handling 54.6V (13s) at 85kg+ without any problems. Top speed is about 30km/h fully charged in 26" wheel, this drops to about 26Km/h empty in 26" wheel. This is in Sweden, flat terrain very close to Copenhagen. (If the DuncanDK stands for Denmark?)

201rpm motor handles 75V and 85kg+ without any problems, but not the Q100H clutch and some controllers connected to that voltage. The clutch slips, small springs inside fail and some controllers have HVC (High Voltage Cutoff) set to low besides the underrated components inside. Top speed at this voltage is more than you need. Mine is electronically limited to 34km/h~37Km/h.

260rpm, have no clue as I've never used that version.

 

[Sunder]

Just noticed the new Q100Hs have been powder coated black inside. This must be for better thermal transfer.



Original Q100 case on the left. First gen Q100H on the right. A Q100H I bought about 3 weeks ago and fitted yesterday, in the centre.