0% to 100% proportional regen with separate throttle

[Grinning_Ernst]

Tested so far: proportional regen with

- cycle analyst 3.14
- one throttle
- pressure sensor on a Magura hydraulic brake
- grinfineon controller (the 40 A one)
- UFO crystalyte 3KW motor

Regen worked well in this setup until the pressure switch started to turn on randomly, and now stays on all the time so I had to unplug and disable it. I'd just go ahead and debug this, but...

What I dislike with this setup:

- 50% regen whenever the brake is applied (jerky, unnatural feeling!)
- the dual purpose of one throttle (make sure to release the throttle before releasing the brakes!)

I'm hoping for some insight on how to achieve the following:

- two throttles, one for accelerating, one for braking
- regen braking proportionally from "nothing" to 100% (no jerky feeling once applied)
- no signal required from the brakes

This would be similar to the e-twow scooter e-braking, not sure about other models, just to give you the idea. It's a very natural feeling -- one throttle for speeding, the other for braking proportionally from 0%(-ish) to 100%.

To achieve this, I would even be willing to throw out the CA3 and the grinfineon controller (though the former would be a great loss), and for example go for a Phaserunner (I saw some hints in their wiring diagrams on how to use two throttles, but it's a bit too thin on the details for me).

Thanks!

 

[flat tire]

Controllers like ASI support a separate throttle input to be used as an analog ebrake (variable regen brake). The best setup I've found is the second domino throttle on your left grip, where it will twist forward instead of back. This is actually a very intuitive and easy to use setup.

Your throttle will have power ground and signal. You just need to see that the first 2 get what they need and the signal goes to the correct pin for analog input 2 (or whatever) and then configure the range and function in software. In ASI you would set the voltage range for operation and change the flag for analog ebrake to 1.

I believe that should all apply to your phaserunner, with the exception that the software is even more simplified, so the last part should be more straightforward.

 

[spinningmagnets]

If you agree that the harvested watts when using regen are small, and the braking effect of regen is very useful ...you might consider researching "plug brake".

It uses a resistor wire, and those can be harvested for free from hair dryers or ele tric room heaters. Apparently there is am easy way to configure it to be adjustable, so...more regen when conditions are ideal, and less when the road is slippery.

 

[John in CR]

My son and I have used 2 types (both on the left side).

We use a thumb throttle on his ebike, which works great. I'm just waiting to get some more thumb throttles that work equally well on the right or left side to switch mine over to a thumb throttle for variable regen.

On my big scooter I use a regular twist throttle, so on the left side you turn it backwards to brake. I tried a full twist at first, which was a horrible feeling...no solid grip to the handlebar. Then I cut most of the tube off, so it's mostly index finger and thumb hold to reverse twist, which works ok, and then on the rest of the bar I have a grip with the allen bolt tightening for a nice solid grip on the handlebar.

 

[flat tire]

Whatever you do, don't use a half-twist throttle as john in cr suggests. That is horrible. Use full twist. That way you can continue to use all fingers to hang on to the bar when twisting, vs giving up most of your grip while a couple fingers twist the control. As a bonus you can twist while keeping the index and middle free to operate a lever should there be one.

 

[spinningmagnets]

That's a good point, but...throttles are cheap and everyone should have two of them (or more). I think everyone should try two different styles and see what works best for you. Get your throttles from the same company that you get the controller from, so they all have the same connectors for plug-and-play...

 

[amberwolf]

the way i intend to implement this is using a generic ebrake lever to control a cable-operated throttle unit, as the "braking throttle". (so the lever's cable goes to the throttle unit, rather than to a mechanical brake).

but because the voltage range required to control regen on the grinfineons is 0.8v for no braking, down to 0.0v for full braking, i can't use the standard hall output voltage range of the cable operated throttle unit. if i had a potentiometer-based c.o.t. unit, that wouldn't be a problem, but i have a hall-based one. so the plan is to alter the cot so it's pulley is mounted to teh shaft of a small potentiometer, instead of to the magnet wheel (the pot replaces the magnet wheel). then the pot is wired up to a power supply voltage (provided by a zener/resistor combo off the 5v line from throttle power), so that for it's full mechanical range as the brake lever can move it, it gives 0.8v for no braking, down to 0.0v for full lever-pulled engagement (likely with a rubber pad somewhere in the lever's travel, or a nonlinear pulley on the cable, so it doesnt' have to pulled down to the grip for max braking).


then, during braking, a relay will be switched by the ebrake lever's ebrake switch, that disconnects the "actual" throttle from the controller's input, and connects the cable-operated throttle's output to the controller instead.

there is a possibility that during switching, the voltage "glitch" that can happen may confuse the controller. if so, i will probably have to use a circuit between the relay and throttle inptu of controller to filter that. i don't want the voltage to drop down to zero during switching and cause the controller to engage full braking power from the glitch.

 

[John in CR]

Whatever you do, don't use a half-twist throttle as john in cr suggests. That is horrible. Use full twist. That way you can continue to use all fingers to hang on to the bar when twisting, vs giving up most of your grip while a couple fingers twist the control. As a bonus you can twist while keeping the index and middle free to operate a lever should there be one.

This is obviously stated by someone who has never used a reverse twisting (right hand) throttle on the left side for braking either full or half twist and probably never even tried a half twist throttle on the right for throttle control. A full reverse twist on the left is as if you have hold of a free spinning grip on the left while you're braking because you're arching your wrist upward and you really don't have control over anything. Using a portion of a reverse twist on the left is much like using a half twist for the throttle where you never really give up a grip on a firm piece of bar, only allow it to change position in your hand a bit. Using a full twist on the left is bad to the point of being dangerous with an ebike capable of strong regen braking.

Another problem with full twist for regen is the frequent accidental engagement on bumpy roads.

My son and I both prefer the thumb throttle though, because it allows more precision to modulate the regen force. On his bike we haven't even bothered with mounting the rear brake caliper since the regen works so well and is used for well over 90% of braking, since it works down to near zero with the Nucular controller.

That feeling may change whenever our box finally arrives, because I included some left hand throttles in my order to try first. Maybe the downward twist to engage will be better, but accidental engagement on bumps is likely to be worse, so cutting them down to a partial twist will probably be an improvement there too.

In addition, to several types of thumb throttles that rotate around the bar, I ordered a number of different thumb throttles for both right and left side use where the lever rotate on an axis perpendicular to the bar, like this one.
My hope is to be able to adapt one to engage much like a normal left side brake lever, and be able to easily modulate regen force with one finger instead of a thumb. If I get that to work well I'll be sure to post a thread, because I think that would be the ideal, especially if I can also figure out a way to retain the left side mechanical brake lever for the rear.

 

[flat tire]

What a joker. One of my bikes has a full grip domino on the left for proportional regen. You can indeed hold on while rotating forward to brake, and it's really important to do so if you are riding hard on rough terrain. Anyway, full grip is better than half grip for anyone with a brain, and an outright necessity if you want to ride fast racing style.

 

[John in CR]

What a joker. One of my bikes has a full grip domino on the left for proportional regen. You can indeed hold on while rotating forward to brake, and it's really important to do so if you are riding hard on rough terrain. Anyway, full grip is better than half grip for anyone with a brain, and an outright necessity if you want to ride fast racing style.

Sure when you run a low powered rig all that matters is being able to hold on, but many of use ride bikes where precise control is a requirement too. I'd argue that half twist throttles give you a better hold on the bar anyway, because you're holding onto the bar, not only onto a tube rotating around the bar. Despite holding on only by a spinning tube, you can still be in full control with a full twist throttle, in large part because your left hand has a firm hold directly onto the bar itself. If you don't believe me find a barbell and two short pieces of tubing slightly larger diameter than the bar. Slide them over the bar, and then lift and move the bar around, first with both hands fully on the loose tubes and also with both hands only halfway on the tubes (half on the bar).

While we are highly adaptive and can become accustomed to almost any input device, I've been using mine for months and there's just something wrong with the reverse twist modulating the regen braking.

Now as far as your "brain" comment, you can start checking that attitude at the login screen, because you're certainly not half as smart as you think you are, and incivility has become all too common on the forum. Plus how much in the way of brains does it take to spend almost $200 on a solution with less precise control and a weaker hold on the handlebars than I achieved for under $5 ?

 

[flat tire]

What a joker! The main problem with half twist is you can't hold onto the outside of the bar properly, or at all, when twisting the wrist. And good luck covering your brake. This is a solved problem. Do motorcycles (which people need to hold onto) ever use half twist? No, because it sucks. Duh.

 

[HK12K]

Mind if I ask where you ordered the thumb throttles from? I use them for both throttle and brake but wouldn't mind exploring some different form factors in the interest of comfort. I find that I get some hand cramping with the ones I currently use.

 

[John in CR]

Mind if I ask where you ordered the thumb throttles from? I use them for both throttle and brake but wouldn't mind exploring some different form factors in the interest of comfort. I find that I get some hand cramping with the ones I currently use.

Aliexpress and I think some of the ones we ordered were off Ebay as well.

I have some cable pull hall throttle boxes Gwhy made, so maybe I should try a gasser thumb throttle. I've never really liked any I've tried as a throttle solution except on jetskis. Though I have half-twists on most of my bikes now, none are store-bought. I take a full twist that I like the feel of and cut it off and use allen bolt tightened grip cut short for the stationary end. I ride in too much traffic for cruise to make sense, so I find the half-twist with a really solid bar end grip the best solution for being able to maintain a constant speed.

My bikes are so fast and have so much torque on tap at normal cruising speeds that full twists just don't work well for me, and prefer to have much of my hand on a solid non-twisting part of the bar like an anchor. Just like changing grip location on a full twist, it quickly becomes second nature to move your hand as needed on the locked part. There's also a bit of a safety advantage too if your bike is ever laying down on the left side, where a full twist can be dangerous for someone picking up the bike not realizing it's on ince it's silent. That has been an issue a number of times over the past 12 years.

If you're getting cramping from holding one position then cruise control might be a better solution.

 

[TommyCat]

Reading John in CR's posts was like deja vu all over again.
I thought after riding motorcycles that a full twist throttle was surely the way to go. But had issues with the throttle bouncing all over the place on rough terrain. As well as not being able to get comfortable, and relax with my hand on the throttle grip side. I'm thinking that it must have something to do with the firm resistance that a true motorcycle throttle will give you. As apposed to the some what plasticky and extremely light action of a hall sensor type. And after an almost disastrous episode letting someone not too familiar with a twist grip ride my bike. (panicked and could not let loose after twisting, thank goodness for E-brakes!) Something had to change. I thought about resistance or adding mass to slow it down. But came to the same conclusion as John... cut it down. (at least to try it)

Works great! I also have cruise which is terrific also... just slide your hand a bit more out on the bar or relax your grip and RELAX with some weight forward.
This is all smooth bike trails mind you, no mountain biking here.


Sorry for the drift... more to the OP's inquiry.

If I had proportional regeneration... (next builds wish list) I would endeavor to put both hall sensors in the same throttle grip. Or at least controlled by the same throttle. With a detent stop in the middle between each range. And spring return action for both back to it.(the off or detent position) With the action being, off or detent...pull back for throttle, release...detent... push forward for braking... release... back to off or detent.


Regards,
T.C.

 

[John in CR]

Reading John in CR's posts was like deja vu all over again.
I thought after riding motorcycles that a full twist throttle was surely the way to go. But had issues with the throttle bouncing all over the place on rough terrain. As well as not being able to get comfortable, and relax with my hand on the throttle grip side. I'm thinking that it must have something to do with the firm resistance that a true motorcycle throttle will give you. As apposed to the some what plasticky and extremely light action of a hall sensor type. And after an almost disastrous episode letting someone not too familiar with a twist grip ride my bike. (panicked and could not let loose after twisting, thank goodness for E-brakes!) Something had to change. I thought about resistance or adding mass to slow it down. But came to the same conclusion as John... cut it down. (at least to try it)

TC,
What did you use to glue that stub end back on the bar? I've had them slip before, and on the last full twist I used the entire tube broke and slipped off the end leaving me holding only the left bar with an empty tube in my right hand as my rear wheel went thru the gutter entering the street with oncoming traffic in both directions. How I managed not to eat some asphalt I don't know, but that's when I decided half grips only and allen bolt clamping grip on the end.

As far as braking on the left side you should feel what that bouncing around does with a full twist on the left side and arching your wrist to turn it backward for braking, and then at the same time your weight is pushing forward due to braking force. Add in bumpy road and it's impossible to modulate the twist brake very well. Flat Tire can't have tried a half twist on the left side, which while still lacking is much better than a full reverse twist for braking.

With the scooter maker (Vectrix, I think) holding the patent for the 2 way twist on the right for throttle and regen, good luck finding that solution. Personally I like having the rear brake on the left. Hopefully one of the thumb throttle solutions works well for me, whether it's thumb operated or above/in front of the bar like a trigger for the index finger.

 

[HK12K]

Mind if I ask where you ordered the thumb throttles from? I use them for both throttle and brake but wouldn't mind exploring some different form factors in the interest of comfort. I find that I get some hand cramping with the ones I currently use.

Aliexpress and I think some of the ones we ordered were off Ebay as well.

I have some cable pull hall throttle boxes Gwhy made, so maybe I should try a gasser thumb throttle. I've never really liked any I've tried as a throttle solution except on jetskis. Though I have half-twists on most of my bikes now, none are store-bought. I take a full twist that I like the feel of and cut it off and use allen bolt tightened grip cut short for the stationary end. I ride in too much traffic for cruise to make sense, so I find the half-twist with a really solid bar end grip the best solution for being able to maintain a constant speed.

My bikes are so fast and have so much torque on tap at normal cruising speeds that full twists just don't work well for me, and prefer to have much of my hand on a solid non-twisting part of the bar like an anchor. Just like changing grip location on a full twist, it quickly becomes second nature to move your hand as needed on the locked part. There's also a bit of a safety advantage too if your bike is ever laying down on the left side, where a full twist can be dangerous for someone picking up the bike not realizing it's on ince it's silent. That has been an issue a number of times over the past 12 years.

If you're getting cramping from holding one position then cruise control might be a better solution.

Thanks John. The ones I'm currently using are actually similar to the one you posted and work well for me for the most part. I was mostly curious to see just how many similar designs there might be floating around out there. I have considered spinning the brake lever around to make it finger actuated but I would need a different version from what I have to make it work well.

Though my brake and throttle appear to be mirror images of one another the throttle lever is actually a bit longer than the brake. This makes the throttle stick proud of the bars to the point that I rarely put my thumb in the spot you'd expect, instead preferring to rest it on top of the lever. No real issue there, it works and the Adaptto has cruise, but I may give a half twist a shot one of these days. It's the long slow descents when I have my kid in the trailer that put my left hand in an awkward position for extended periods of time that bug me most I think.

 

[John in CR]

.

I'm getting multiples of each type for testing different things. Though I'm typically very slow with my builds and reports, this subject is something I need a good resolution, and will report back if I think I have a good answer to help the community. I do know that Flat Tire's solution that cost almost $200 with shipping and taxes is piss-poor. Sure a full twist throttle with decent resistance to turn can work well for the right side throttle as a great solution for throttle, but for breaking on the left as a reverse twist it really is "piss-poor". I'm all about economical solutions, and for $200 I have motors in hand that are capable of 20kw+ (don't ask details as they are no longer in production), so that amount for throttles and brakes, for which I know my sub $5 solution is better because I've tested both, is all-to-common EV theft). EV's should be cheap, absolutely reliable, and cheap to operate...ie transportation for the masses of the world...and since Tesla has shown the way regarding how much better EV performance can be, my focus is (and will always be), how to give the masses of the world products that enable freedom of transportation (as opposed to mass transit that can be cheaper but relies on governments to make the right investments with taxpayer money).

To me, except when people could build their own horse and buggy transport, this is the first time in history that the common man could build their own vehicles for personal transportation...(and with EV's it can be so much simpler and easier) that is really is a no-brainer.

 

[TommyCat]

TC,
What did you use to glue that stub end back on the bar?

Hi John,

To make up the difference of the slightly larger ID of the cut off throttle handle, I just nicely wrapped electrical black tape in two places with enough layers to have it fit VERY snuggly (much like a left grip...) The downside is that you have to remove and replace if you want to remove the throttle...

With the scooter maker (Vectrix, I think) holding the patent for the 2 way twist on the right for throttle and regen, good luck finding that solution.

Rats! And to think of the money I could have made. Looked at it though and it seems a bit proprietary with optic sensors?

Personally I like having the rear brake on the left. Hopefully one of the thumb throttle solutions works well for me, whether it's thumb operated or above/in front of the bar like a trigger for the index finger.

Ran across this at one time... bit pricy but.

https://www.mobilitysmart.co.uk/tga-breeze-throttle-potentiometer-new-lever-type.html

 

[John in CR]

TC,
What did you use to glue that stub end back on the bar?

Hi John,

To make up the difference of the slightly larger ID of the cut off throttle handle, I just nicely wrapped electrical black tape in two places with enough layers to have it fit VERY snuggly (much like a left grip...) The downside is that you have to remove and replace if you want to remove the throttle...

Pretty snug can work as long as you're the only one touching the ebike, but be conscious of and alert for the non-twisting part pushing against the twisting part and preventing the throttle from going to zero. I had this happen to me about 9 years ago after dropping an ebike on its right side. My 6yo son had to come to the rescue. Picture someone off their bike and it starts to go while they have one hand on the handlebar. As the motor starts to spin faster and faster he's trying to keep the rear wheel from touching the ground, but the angles prevent him from keeping the wheel off the ground at first, so he's spinning in a circle with the bike going around with a heavy rear DD hub skipping off the carport tile as it begins spinning faster and faster before he finally gets the bike under enough control to keep the wheel off the ground for someone to come help by turning off the key. That was the most memorable time, but before going to allen bolt clamping grips I've had that rubber non-twisting part move enough left to cause issues on more than one other occasion.

Personally I like having the rear brake on the left. Hopefully one of the thumb throttle solutions works well for me, whether it's thumb operated or above/in front of the bar like a trigger for the index finger.

Ran across this at one time... bit pricy but.
https://www.mobilitysmart.co.uk/tga-breeze-throttle-potentiometer-new-lever-type.html

That's almost double the Domino rip off price. I don't see a pic anyway to figure out how to hack together a similar solution for what I consider a reasonable price, which is dirt cheap. My bet is on the thumb operated, because I don't know how a trigger and a mechanical hydro brake would go together. On my son's ebike we're still running a thumb throttle on the left as variable force rear regen using a hack of a right side thumb throttle. I haven't gotten to ride it enough to get totally accustomed, but since the regen with the Nucular controller goes down to near zero (we both use mechanical for that last rotation to a full stop due to vibration/noise of regen braking to a stop), regen braking is used for almost 100% of non-emergency braking on his bike. On mine (with the dual Nuc's) the awkwardness of the reverse twist combined with mechanical brake levers activating my brake light, regen braking provides 80-90% of my braking force, maybe a bit more since mechanical is generally only low speed stuff.

 

[TommyCat]

Thanks for the heads up! I took it all the way to the handlebar hitting the inside of the grip end. And then set the throttle position. But never thought about a direct hit to the end. I'll give it a whack on the end with a rubber mallet and see. Perhaps a spacer between the two will be needed, butted up against a non-rotating throttle part. Or just a whisker bigger gap.

Allen bolt clamping grips, and available with the clamp at either end...who knew? Man, what you can't find...

I was thinking about a linear hall sensor mated with a brake lever... (you've seen the kits with just the bipolar switch)
But was wondering if there is enough lever play before you start touching the pads to have enough room for proper regen control
Do those Nucular controllers have fully programmable throttle and regent setpoints? How do you like it. I had been considering a Kelly...

 

[John in CR]

Thanks for the heads up! I took it all the way to the handlebar hitting the inside of the grip end. And then set the throttle position. But never thought about a direct hit to the end. I'll give it a whack on the end with a rubber mallet and see. Perhaps a spacer between the two will be needed, butted up against a non-rotating throttle part. Or just a whisker bigger gap.

Allen bolt clamping grips, and available with the clamp at either end...who knew? Man, what you can't find...

I was thinking about a linear hall sensor mated with a brake lever... (you've seen the kits with just the bipolar switch)
But was wondering if there is enough lever play before you start touching the pads to have enough room for proper regen control
Do those Nucular controllers have fully programmable throttle and regent setpoints? How do you like it. I had been considering a Kelly...

For both throttle and brakes the Nuc's have every setting you can think of. Now that I have perfect throttle control, riding my other bikes isn't pleasant anymore...at least until I get my other 6 Nucular controllers in hand. The only issue is supply. Right about now Vasily was going to be getting production ramped up to avoid the order backlog, but this virus thing has him waiting on some components out of China.

 

[HK12K]

Looks like I'm going to get the opportunity to test out some new throttles of my own. Had a little lowside situation in the yard earlier while up on one wheel, to great effect. Spun the bars around on the steerer tube and liberated the throttle assembly in the process.

Whoops.

 

[HK12K]

Just came across this whilst perusing ali.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32900195401.html

I wonder if that brake lever would work for variable regen... Or as a throttle for that matter.

 

[fechter]

Just came across this whilst perusing ali.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32900195401.html

I wonder if that brake lever would work for variable regen... Or as a throttle for that matter.

Yes, that should work as either a throttle or variable brake. Mounting it along with a normal brake lever might be the challenge.

 

[TommyCat]

:thumb: Nice find HK12K! Thanks for the link.