1000 watt hours per side.

[DogDipstick]

Yes, that is my fathers mechanical engineering company. Our seal.

I like to cut it into whatever I can, and yes, we have stickers, and buttons, and BSECo. pens to give out to customers. All kinds of shwag. Licensed to engineer in the US.

My great grandfather was employed as a Steamboat Engineer, Clerk and Cub Pilot on the Mississippi River running Steamboats between St. Paul and St. Louis.

Being a working Steam Engineer is a very old, honorable practice. The man in charge. The man who says what happens when. We build steam engines. That is a pic of Chris ( that is not my dad), next to his build, that has taken about 10 years so far. It will go on a 120ft ship sometime soon. Entirely copied from 1860's drawings of the original ( and the same dimension, ie, size.. as the original 1860 engine.. built with modern tooling). All real documentation ( blueprints) of the original Victorian-Age walking beam has been lost, we are in charge of all the valve works, piston designs, linkages, and timing systems. That is my dads customer/friend.

The engine is a 13" bore, by 27" stroke.

To be able to run a steam engine reliably, is a real challenge.. when you have the lives of all aboard in your hands. Steam boiler explosions are quite deadly and violent, as we all know. I am, in fact, a little scared, for I have never been formally trained as a boiler engineer. Engineer certification is not trivial. I would not pass the certification tests in my area, I know. I would need years as a intern first, and to be union, commited. I have a few friends who are certified steam boiler engineers.


I will get to the other questions soon, too.. I have to get out there and do some shipping right now.

 

[neptronix]

Really like the idea of repurposing car batteries.

Also, these kind of trump RC lipos.. 10C with that kind of density is awesome... 250A output is definitely enough..

 

[DogDipstick]

Yeah the carvings really catch the light and this adds a depth to the image with the black background.

This bike is great. I need to build another. I am working on a Super 73 soon with a design load of minimum 250A @72v nominal or 96v nominal. ~20 inch tire bike. Not decided yet. Big hub motor, biggest we can buy that will fit. 190mm dropout. Shooting for a 961800? ND and a minimum ~3600 wH battery. I have been in close contact with the FarDriver rep. I don't know how it will all come together, but it will happen. Those specs are only goals at the moment, we ( my customer and I ) will begin buying soon.

 

[neptronix]

Very nice.. have you ever thought of taking this idea to it's logical conclusion..
IE designing a cargo bike frame, or motorcycle frame around a specific common electric car battery so that you can get stupid range..

TBH.. that'd be my kind of ride. The fun runs out too fast with only 1kwhr on board.

 

[nicobie]

I agree. That battery/controller/motor on an cargo bike would kick ass.

 

[eMark]

... taking this idea to it's logical conclusion. ... a cargo bike frame ... so that you can get stupid range...

I agree. That battery/controller/motor on an cargo bike would kick ass.

We're getting into e-motorcycle bike/trike forum territory (license required) with "pedals" more for foot rests than higher cadence power pedalling.

For myself (and hundreds of other ebikers/trikers) i prefer DogDips downsizing plan (16s) possibly using smaller size EV (salvaged?) pouch cells (e.g. 4"x3") for performance cycle life longevity as well as miles and miles on one charge with peak bursts of speed ... :thumb:

RC Lipos (3rd Gen), as good as they may be, they're just too expensive using them for a DIY battery build.

 

[neptronix]

We're getting into e-motorcycle bike/trike forum territory (license required) with "pedals" more for foot rests than higher cadence power pedalling.

Personally i would still pedal and have a really huge chainring to make it work. What you do with a large battery is up to your tastes.

RC Lipos (3rd Gen), as good as they may be, they're just too expensive using them for a DIY battery build.

Just looked at hobbyking. Still pretty affordable to put a pack together with RC lipo. Wouldn't want to use them on a daily driver for safety reasons though.

 

[nicobie]

Personally i would still pedal and have a really huge chainring to make it work.

I did that once with an 11 tooth freewheel that you sold to me. :lol:

If memory serves, it, along with a monster chainring was good to 30 mph.

 

[neptronix]

Personally i would still pedal and have a really huge chainring to make it work.

I did that once with an 11 tooth freewheel that you sold to me. :lol:

If memory serves, it, along with a monster chainring was good to 30 mph.

Oh wow, lol.

On 26" wheels and a 11t low gear and 60t chainring, i was able to pedal up to about 41mph. I was really happy with that. On the leafbike on 6kw of power, i was pedaling about 90% of the time i was riding it.

A 60T chainring does look odd but i like pedaling!

 

[nicobie]

I was using a 24" wheel with a big tire and a 52T chainring.

 

[999zip999]

I run 52t and 11t but would like a 54 or 56t

 

[eMark]

Just looked at hobbyking. Still pretty affordable to put a pack together with RC lipo. Wouldn't want to use them on a daily driver for safety reasons though.

A RC Lipo 3rdGEN 16s10p (IMO) is not "still pretty affordable" compared to using salvaged EV pouch cells (closer to 4"x3") for a 16s10p build. Believe DogDipstick said on this thread or another thread of building a 16s for his next DIY salvaged EV pouch cell battery.

There have been a couple salvaged EV batteries on BH with smaller pouch cells (4"x3") potentially with 60amps of usable cell continuous discharge? Was thinking of something like a 16s10p build using salvaged EV pouch cells good for at least 60 miles with brisk bursts of speed and up to 100 miles with some moderate cadence peddaling along the way as opposed to ghost pedalling.

A 16s10p wouldn't extend out so far on each side ... making cadence pedalling and the look of the bike more natural. Would always be using some degree of pedal assist (depending on one's age) and travel farther to distance lands to explore new territory. Wondering what ebuilder thinks of a salvaged EV 10s10p build as an advantage when he's in his 70s?

 

[john61ct]

HobbyKing has stopped producing top notch LiPo, very poor value these days.

Liperior are fantastic value if 20-25C peak is enough for short bursts.

SMC you have to pay for higher power held longer.

See MSCGUY's thread over at rcgroups.com for objective test data and rankings.

 

[eMark]

Let's forget about RC Lipos as that DIY build discussion is best suited for another thread.

Really like the idea of repurposing car batteries.

Also, these kind of trump RC lipos.. 10C with that kind of density is awesome... 250A output is definitely enough..

Also even a 16sx2p would require just as much or even more space was NOT thinking.

What's advantage of using a rear hub drive when the controller is just as close to the front -

Is it a safety issue? Is it for traction with your weight over rear fat tire? You may have discussed advantage before on another thread ... or it's so obvious there's no need to explain

 

[DogDipstick]

What's advantage of using a rear hub drive when the controller is just as close to the front -

I dont quite understand the question? The controller is in the box under the seat. Up side down, ( and its getting hot nowadays, I might force air cooling into the upper box)...

 

[neptronix]

A RC Lipo 3rdGEN 16s10p (IMO) is not "still pretty affordable" compared to using salvaged EV pouch cells (closer to 4"x3") for a 16s10p build. Believe DogDipstick said on this thread or another thread of building a 16s for his next DIY salvaged EV pouch cell battery.

Of course salvaged batteries are cheaper. I'm just saying that RC Lipos are not expensive compared to other new cell options.

 

[DogDipstick]

I just took my first all reasonable e-bike ride at about 15-20 mph. I went about 15 mi at this output and the battery was still over 4.0 volts per cell. 80.4v total to be exact.


I would never have such a good bike with such good range if it wasn't for recycling electric vehicle sales and the price that they came at. It is just the inconvenience of finding a place for the bulk.

 

[eMark]

I dont quite understand the question? The controller is in the box under the seat. Up side down, ( and its getting hot nowadays, I might force air cooling into the upper box)...

Didn't phrase my question just right.

With the weight of the battery closer to the front wheel -- the controller could be located closer to the front than rear if using a front wheel hub motor. Was just thinking out loud as to why you decided to use a powerful hub motor on rear wheel as most ebikes use a front hub motor?

With front wheel drive cars and so many ebikes with front wheel hub motors was caught off-guard. After giving it more thought it makes perfect sense having the fat tire and powerful hub motor on rear wheel. Now see the advantage of fat tire and hub motor at rear with weight of rider for better traction (and safety). Is there any other reason(s)?

 

[99t4]

...most ebikes use a front hub motor

What are you basing this statement on?

 

[eMark]

...most ebikes use a front hub motor

What are you basing this statement on?

https://www.ebikeschool.com/front-hub-motors-vs-rear-hub-motors/ ...

• Another advantage of front hub motors is that they are easier to install than rear hub motors. You don’t have to worry about transferring over the freewheel or trying to adjust your derailleur to get rid of that funny chain noise.
  
  With a front hub motor, you simply swap the tire on the wheel and place the motor back into the dropouts. Front hub motor installations are easier than pie, whatever that means.
  
  So while front hub motors are easier to install, get fewer flat tires and help spread the weight around, but rear hub motors get better traction, provide smoother acceleration and can appear stealthier.
  
  In practice, many small, weaker hub motors are used in the front of the bike to take advantage of the weight distribution while avoiding issues of tire spin due to the weaker motor, while larger more powerful hub motors are placed in the rear to take advantage of the gains in traction. In the end, it’s all about what works best for you.
  
  Bicycles with heavy rear hub motors and batteries also mounted far to the rear, such as on a rear rack, are prone to “popping wheelies” during acceleration.
  
  

Because the majority of ES threads are performance driven a rear hub makes more sense to some than a front hub ... :thumb:

 

[Chalo]

...most ebikes use a front hub motor

What are you basing this statement on?

Maybe the jillions of rental e-bikes that are almost without exception powered by front hub motors? Rental fleets aren't deluded into thinking they need multiple times more power than e-bike ordinances allow, they don't have superstitions about rear wheel drive being necessary or even advantageous on a sub-1 HP vehicle, and they benefit from easy maintenance and reliability.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

...most ebikes use a front hub motor

What are you basing this statement on?

Maybe the jillions of rental e-bikes that are almost without exception powered by front hub motors? Rental fleets aren't deluded into thinking they need multiple times more power than e-bike ordinances allow, they don't have superstitions about rear wheel drive being necessary or even advantageous on a sub-1 HP vehicle, and they benefit from easy maintenance and reliability.

And to add onto that- my ultra-shitty Sondors THIN can get itself up to 25MPH on ratty tires, no suspension, and one of the worst seats my fine posterior has ever touched. It's a spooky-ass 25, genuinely unsafe tier that I don't do frequently.
It is in everyone's best interest to keep rental eBikes as low-power as reasonable; they're safer than the E-scooters (I work ER, I see rental scooter accidents far more than rental EBike crashes) and can be far more comfortable and usable. Last thing you want is my last Ebike crash, which was 2 drunk dudes who decided to attempt to joust each other with them in the middle of the street.

 

[eMark]

Maybe the jillions of rental e-bikes that are almost without exception powered by front hub motors? Rental fleets aren't deluded into thinking they need multiple times more power than e-bike ordinances allow, they don't have superstitions about rear wheel drive being necessary or even advantageous on a sub-1 HP vehicle, and they benefit from easy maintenance and reliability.

You and i with our etrikes have no choice, but a front hub. We're not inclined to “popping wheelies”

Prefer when my 750W front hub (16" tire) spins on grass or dirt (with pedal assist) before achieving traction ... easier on the motor. Kinda same reasoning with a kick start scooter.

 

[john61ct]

most ebikes use a front hub motor

Ludicrous

maybe one in a hundred

 

[eMark]

Called a couple ebike shops and their sales favor front hub drive (2 to 1). Cost being a factor moreso with women that aren't as interested in power/speed raw performance. Even with guys front hub motors are just as popular as rear hubs with cost being the decider. Ebike shops and customers are aware of state law of 25mph top speed for ebikes.

Pennsylvania ebike speed law https://wsd-pfb-sparkinfluence.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/2020/05/E-Bike-Law-Handouts_PA_2020.pdf ...

E-bikes are defined as “pedalcycles with electric assist,” so long as the e-bike’s motor is under 750w, has a maximum speed of 20mph on a level surface when powered by the motor source only, weighs no more than 100 lbs and has operable pedals.

Other ES members may agree that under 750w and 20mph maximum speed is "silly" (j61ct).

...most ebikes use a front hub motor

What are you basing this statement on?

Maybe the jillions of rental e-bikes that are almost without exception powered by front hub motors? Rental fleets aren't deluded into thinking they need multiple times more power than e-bike ordinances allow, they don't have superstitions about rear wheel drive being necessary or even advantageous on a sub-1 HP vehicle, and they benefit from easy maintenance and reliability.

Previous to these posts i had asked Dogdipstick why he didn't use a powerful front hub motor (with fat tire), but as of yet he hasn't replied. With heavy VOLT battery closer to the front wheel the cable run would be shorter to a front hub with proper tire size for traction.

Assumed his reason for using a rear hub is traction and maybe safety. With weight of that VOLT battery closer to the front tire then traction should be good--plus these advantages ...

• Another advantage of front hub motors is that they are easier to install than rear hub motors. You don’t have to worry about transferring over the freewheel or trying to adjust your derailleur to get rid of that funny chain noise.
  
  With a front hub motor, you simply swap the tire on the wheel and place the motor back into the dropouts. Front hub motor installations are easier than pie, whatever that means.
  
  So while front hub motors are easier to install, get fewer flat tires and help spread the weight around, but rear hub motors get better traction, provide smoother acceleration and can appear stealthier.

• Rear Hub Pros
  A rear hub motor uses well-established technology
  A rear hub motor will generally perform better on a dirt road
  There is less wear drive chain wise

• Rear Hub Cons
  A rear hub motor generally leads to more spoke breakages
  It’s more difficult to change a tire when compared to a front hub motor
  There is more wear on the rear brakes
  Much more difficult to fit due to gearing, meaning the conversion may need to be done by a professional
  Worse weight distribution which may lead to other issues

The reason i asked Dogdipstick (rear hub vs front hub) was wondering with the weight of the VOLT cells battery at front and shorter cable run if there is also any 'safety advantage' ?

Isn't any rear hub vs front hub 'safety advantage' still 100% the responsibility of the ebiker ?
Is it as simple as which tire (rear or front) has the better traction when it comes to safety ?