REdiculous
10 kW
How much power is lost due to oil cooling (not much I hope - other cons?), how much does that add to the cost and does it make sense at the 10-20ish HP level that I'm more interested in? 100HP is neat, but..nah. later 
14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......
- Thread starter recumpence
- Start date
recumpence
1 GW
I got bogged down looking for 1/2 inch keyway shaft. It is readily available, but all the shafts I have bought (3 so far) are all CRAP! These thigns are freakin GARBAGE! I mean they are not straight, they are very rough surface finish, and they are all a few thousandths too small making them rattle in the bearings. So, we are machining our own keyways in precision shafts.
Matt
Matt
Matt, it looks like there would be no difficulty putting a longer custom shaft into this motor, so a builder could have a double-ended shaft, would you say thats this is a real option?
Is this motor neutrally-timed, so that it could be easily reversible? can the timing be advanced in either direction for that small benefit to power (if a builder only needed one direction of spin?)
Awesome work, thanks again for all your time and effort!
Is this motor neutrally-timed, so that it could be easily reversible? can the timing be advanced in either direction for that small benefit to power (if a builder only needed one direction of spin?)
Awesome work, thanks again for all your time and effort!
recumpence
1 GW
Double shafts........ Check
Adjustable timing........ Check
Yes on both counts.
Matt
Adjustable timing........ Check
Yes on both counts.
Matt
I've pondered a 2-speed transmission for quite some time. I believe that an E-motorcycle is the candidate that most needs one (cars have more space to apply various solutions, and bikes don't absolutely require one). The "Gomi-style" Honda 250 conversion fitted a Perm-132 onto the swingarm without having to extend the arm, leaving the entire frame triangle for much-needed battery mass. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7wid_8k_7k
Your new motor has adequate power for a light motorcycle and is much smaller, which makes finding a mounting location much easier with all the different frames out there.
Two EV hot-rods I've seen had two motors mounted in-line (double-ended shaft makes this an easy option). Miles' arguments have convinced me that the retro-direct configuration is a very viable 2-speed to implement. Double-ended shaft also allows experimenters to play with that.
He mentioned that there may be problems with motor reversals due to spinning mass (a reversing motor being a requirement for the R-D transmission). It would be a bigger problem on pancake motors, but a cylindrical style with a clutch-brake might be doable (I had a circular saw with an automatic clutch-brake, when I released the trigger, the fast spinning blade was suddenly stopped).
The July 2010 issue of Popular Science has that beautiful 200-mpg aero-bodied motorcycle by Allert Jacobs on pg 75.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16234
I couldn't help but notice he said the sliding door panels turned out nice (with holes near the bottom for your feet at stops) but now that he's actually ridden it quite a few miles, he wants to open up the leg space for a wider stance at stops...kinda like this guy from 1982:
Your new motor has adequate power for a light motorcycle and is much smaller, which makes finding a mounting location much easier with all the different frames out there.
Two EV hot-rods I've seen had two motors mounted in-line (double-ended shaft makes this an easy option). Miles' arguments have convinced me that the retro-direct configuration is a very viable 2-speed to implement. Double-ended shaft also allows experimenters to play with that.
He mentioned that there may be problems with motor reversals due to spinning mass (a reversing motor being a requirement for the R-D transmission). It would be a bigger problem on pancake motors, but a cylindrical style with a clutch-brake might be doable (I had a circular saw with an automatic clutch-brake, when I released the trigger, the fast spinning blade was suddenly stopped).
The July 2010 issue of Popular Science has that beautiful 200-mpg aero-bodied motorcycle by Allert Jacobs on pg 75.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16234
I couldn't help but notice he said the sliding door panels turned out nice (with holes near the bottom for your feet at stops) but now that he's actually ridden it quite a few miles, he wants to open up the leg space for a wider stance at stops...kinda like this guy from 1982:
deVries
100 kW
Hi Matt,recumpence said:
How's your motor project coming along? Here is an initial "spec" post from Hal about their pre-production motor. There is still a lot of tweaking to do, but they are going to produce a small run up to 50-100 motors.
Please predict or just "best guess" how your "14kw continuous 94% efficient motor" specs will compare to these...
I realize these motors are different from each other, but I don't know what that means in specific specs. I just want to get an idea about how different your motor will be compared to Hal's.HAL9000v2.0 said:
Also, what applications is your motor especially designed for? What will be the typical controller and battery requirements too?
Thanks!
recumpence
1 GW
Some of this is too early to speculate on. However, I can say that an outrunner is really hard on bearings. Inrunners do not have the overhung can to deal with. I have run 15,000+ rpm without any bearing problems with Astro motors. So, I am not worried about the bearings.
I am expecting my sales of this motor to be relatively low because the price will be higher than Hal's motor. That is fine, though. They apeal to different customers, I think. I would think I will sell one motor for every 3 Hal sells, judging from my own watching of the market in other areas.
I should also develop a high power capable reduction unit, however, to deal with this beast.
Oh, as for controllers, I am leaning toward Kelly controllers. They can be setup for 70,000 electric RPM. So, we are looking at roughly 9,000 rpm with my motor. If reduced 4 to 1, that should be perfect for output to a bike or motorcycle rear wheel.
Matt
I am expecting my sales of this motor to be relatively low because the price will be higher than Hal's motor. That is fine, though. They apeal to different customers, I think. I would think I will sell one motor for every 3 Hal sells, judging from my own watching of the market in other areas.
I should also develop a high power capable reduction unit, however, to deal with this beast.
Oh, as for controllers, I am leaning toward Kelly controllers. They can be setup for 70,000 electric RPM. So, we are looking at roughly 9,000 rpm with my motor. If reduced 4 to 1, that should be perfect for output to a bike or motorcycle rear wheel.
Matt
John in CR
100 TW
recumpence said:
A very fast bike or motorcycle if the wheel is spinning at to 2krpm+
MitchJi
10 MW
Hi,
That's the rpm of the output of the reduction unit, not the rpm of the wheel.John in CR said:recumpence said:
A very fast bike or motorcycle if the wheel is spinning at to 2krpm+
recumpence
1 GW
You are hillarious!
My numbers are based on a 4 to 1 reduction similar (but upscaled) to my bike drive unit. Then you would reduce 2 or 3 to 1 from there to the rear wheel.
Fast motorcycle, indeed!
Matt
EDIT
Doh, Mitch beat me to it!
My numbers are based on a 4 to 1 reduction similar (but upscaled) to my bike drive unit. Then you would reduce 2 or 3 to 1 from there to the rear wheel.
Fast motorcycle, indeed!
Matt
EDIT
Doh, Mitch beat me to it!
deVries
100 kW
Please speculate about what eBike applications this motor can and should be applied to?recumpence said:
recumpence
1 GW
deVries said:Please speculate about what eBike applications this motor can and should be applied to?recumpence said:
Tadpole trikes that require mucho tire smoke, maybe?
Any bike that requires waaayyyy too much power.
Matt
For my money, I'd prefer an inrunner (this type) because of the ease of sealing the system. An inrunner is already pretty much a solid can of aluminum. The outrunners will be difficult to seal, requiring an external box of some kind. Maybe it will be tolerant of mud and grit inside the motor can? I don't know.
I do know that I'd rather not have to wonder. For the money, I want to buy it once. Not to mention that I have no idea what kind of quality control the colossus people have, but the Astro people have a proven system.
I think that might be why Hal is making sure he inspects each one.
Katou
I do know that I'd rather not have to wonder. For the money, I want to buy it once. Not to mention that I have no idea what kind of quality control the colossus people have, but the Astro people have a proven system.
I think that might be why Hal is making sure he inspects each one.
Katou
MitchJi
10 MW
Hi,
I think all you need to know is 2 problem motors out of the first 5 samples and bearings that overheat at 4,800 rpm. Hal will make sure you don't get an obviously bad motor and will probably make good on any severe problems but the underlying quality clearly isn't great.katou said:
I would think that it is difficult to make such large bearings for high rpm well.
When diameter increases, the circumference (and from that the speed of the balls) increases by 3.
So 1/2" to 5" = 2.5x
peripheral speed of the balls inside = 7.5x
Yikes, that seems like a lot.
Katou
When diameter increases, the circumference (and from that the speed of the balls) increases by 3.
So 1/2" to 5" = 2.5x
peripheral speed of the balls inside = 7.5x
Yikes, that seems like a lot.
Katou
Fligh High
100 mW
>Katou , I don't think bearing speed is the problem but much more that the right bearings are not chosen for the application ...
I think a lot of bearing choice in high-power semi-RC motors (because that is what they look like , just a bit bigger than what the RC guys use) are simply chosen to small , maybe because they look at the bigger RC motors and then make it sort of twice the size and bearings are chosen just a bit bigger because it seems just about right to them ? In comparison to the size of the whole package.
A common alternator of a car is usually overdriven about minimal 2,5 times or so with about a 16mm shaft , so you can imagine what the inner diameter of the bearing is. So at say cruising speed of 3000 rpm that is 7500 rpm continues with a LOT of continues side-loading and they last a long time !
Let's face it for the higher wattage motors you simply need good bearings.....the motors are not just over-sized RC motors (that run just a couple of hours total life span for the desired application) but should be treated more as heavy-duty equipment. Cutting short in this department will not work for the long time what people are using it for.
About in-runner versus out-runner : yes I would prefer the in-runner too. If you want to put power into something and it's not integrated , a in-runner seems to be a much bettter logical choice. A out-runner for anything driving a propellor or something is just "weird" , but maybe that's just me
BTW this is not to sound negative about any of the motors beeing produced at the moment here at ES (that all is great) , just my thoughts about bearings and that people designing motors are to conservative in that region.....
I think a lot of bearing choice in high-power semi-RC motors (because that is what they look like , just a bit bigger than what the RC guys use) are simply chosen to small , maybe because they look at the bigger RC motors and then make it sort of twice the size and bearings are chosen just a bit bigger because it seems just about right to them ? In comparison to the size of the whole package.
A common alternator of a car is usually overdriven about minimal 2,5 times or so with about a 16mm shaft , so you can imagine what the inner diameter of the bearing is. So at say cruising speed of 3000 rpm that is 7500 rpm continues with a LOT of continues side-loading and they last a long time !
Let's face it for the higher wattage motors you simply need good bearings.....the motors are not just over-sized RC motors (that run just a couple of hours total life span for the desired application) but should be treated more as heavy-duty equipment. Cutting short in this department will not work for the long time what people are using it for.
About in-runner versus out-runner : yes I would prefer the in-runner too. If you want to put power into something and it's not integrated , a in-runner seems to be a much bettter logical choice. A out-runner for anything driving a propellor or something is just "weird" , but maybe that's just me
BTW this is not to sound negative about any of the motors beeing produced at the moment here at ES (that all is great) , just my thoughts about bearings and that people designing motors are to conservative in that region.....
My point is that 5" ID bearings are pretty rare. And the machines that would use it probably don't rotate at 4-8 krpm.
I've bopped around the McMaster and Sterling Drive components sites enough to see that a bearing that big is pretty heavy, and expensive. I don't know about the RPM of those bearings. I'm sure that they exist, but I would be curious to see one that would go fast enough, be light enough, and still come in under $50
Good info about the alternator, didn't know that.
Katou
I've bopped around the McMaster and Sterling Drive components sites enough to see that a bearing that big is pretty heavy, and expensive. I don't know about the RPM of those bearings. I'm sure that they exist, but I would be curious to see one that would go fast enough, be light enough, and still come in under $50
Good info about the alternator, didn't know that.
Katou
recumpence
1 GW
Bearings are a concern for me as well. But, for the cost of my motor, I will spec the best bearings for this application. I am not specing ceramic bearings, mind you. But, they will be very high quality bearings. Also, my motor uses very common 1/2 inch ID, 1.125 inch OD bearings. Plus, they are not a press-fit. They are flanged bearings with a very light press (almost slip) fit. So, if a bearing ever goes bad, it is a 5 minute proposition to replace it.
Matt
Matt
johnrobholmes
10 MW
I can't wait to test mine out. I am already tearing stuff down for the transplant.
Fligh High
100 mW
> katou : Holy moly , yes a 5 inch diameter outer size bearing would have problems making a lot of RPM but that's not needed for our applications though ? What did you mean with the 5 inch diameter application , did I miss something in this thread ? or did you mean in general ?
>recumpence > That you use very common availeble bearings is GOOD , why would anyone want use special bearings on an Electric motor that is power-wise and/or application-wise not that demanding in general at all ?? Good choice about making it not special at all , why would you ? The point I was trying to make is that it's probably not a very special bearing that is needed for our application...
I can give no-one any advice in bearings at all because I know very little about them , just what I've read about them in general in my life-time , I just compare them with my alternators and I know those bearings are very strong and are also nothing special/ very common /cheap . For the inner diameter size of the bearing alone there should be no problems at all in the used RPM'S , what the best outer diameter / diameter ball's would be in construction I would not know ! 1.125 outer diameter does not seem too big in comparison to the alternator ......if it's up to the job is not for me to say .
>recumpence > That you use very common availeble bearings is GOOD , why would anyone want use special bearings on an Electric motor that is power-wise and/or application-wise not that demanding in general at all ?? Good choice about making it not special at all , why would you
? The point I was trying to make is that it's probably not a very special bearing that is needed for our application... I can give no-one any advice in bearings at all because I know very little about them , just what I've read about them in general in my life-time , I just compare them with my alternators and I know those bearings are very strong and are also nothing special/ very common /cheap . For the inner diameter size of the bearing alone there should be no problems at all in the used RPM'S , what the best outer diameter / diameter ball's would be in construction I would not know ! 1.125 outer diameter does not seem too big in comparison to the alternator ......if it's up to the job is not for me to say .
recumpence
1 GW
I would assume the 5 inch bearing is the outer skirt support bearing for Hal's big outrunner motor.
Matt
Matt
Fligh High
100 mW
>Matt , newbie here :wink: doesn't know half about what's going on here really and is constantly looking for info to learn... but I just looked at the design picture on page two of the big out-runner Colossus ( that is what Katou / you refer to ? ).
That IS a big bearing........... And NO I don't think you would want to make a lot of RPM with that.
I didn't even know it was constructed that way , such sort of construction did not come first to my mind at all ! what I pictured a construction of a outrunner to be what I think it is.
That IS a big bearing........... And NO I don't think you would want to make a lot of RPM with that.
I didn't even know it was constructed that way , such sort of construction did not come first to my mind at all ! what I pictured a construction of a outrunner to be what I think it is.
Fligh High
100 mW
Haha , just something else :
"very common 1/2 inch ID, 1.125 inch OD bearings"
I am amazed it's still inch sizes and not metric ! , even though general manufacturers what I know have gone that way for quite some time even in the good old U as of A (slight pun intended from a european :wink: )
But whatever works and is easy to get where you live = always good !
"very common 1/2 inch ID, 1.125 inch OD bearings"
I am amazed it's still inch sizes and not metric ! , even though general manufacturers what I know have gone that way for quite some time even in the good old U as of A (slight pun intended from a european :wink: )
But whatever works and is easy to get where you live = always good !
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