160 KW 72v Cntroller QS/Yuma 15KW 300A BMS

[liveforphysics]

The Sevcon software and programming dongle cost is like 1% of the dyno tuning labor and time cost.

This 2400Amp controller appears a lot more simple to setup, but I haven't done it yet to comment.

I know I'm preaching to the choir to most of you, but more phase current means your gearing choice compromises get so easy in doing high performance EVs. Huge phase current is how you make massive torque and still have top speed.

I seen that the ND1082400 fardriver is 2400pahse and 1350 battery....are those numbers continuous? On your controller as well?

I'm OK with 2400A phase and 1350A battery. Currently I peak ~850Amps battery and phase with similar max limits.
The 2400A phase is what matters to me, because the slow and time consuming part of the 1/4mile is when you're starting, and whole the back half of the track only lasts a few seconds (and I will still be +500A more battery current than before). +50kW more on top of a bike that already dyno'ing 70rwhp should be a solid improvement. 8)

Yes 1/4 mile take off is crucial.
Is that with your deathbike motor??
Inassume you need a wheelie bar or very long swingarm

Wheelie bar unloads your rear wheel to protect from flipping over, but unloading your rear wheel isn't how to get a good 60ft time or a good 1/4mile time. I've extended the rear wheel location backwards 3 times already, and I'm happy to extend it back again if I feel constrained by wheelie limits. I've got a pair of amazing motor options for deathbike, and if the dyno shows they are saturating at 2400Amps, I will rebuild them with wider stators until the iron stops saturing.

The right amount of drag racing phase current is more. The right amount of motor power is more. Doesn't matter how much you're starting from, its unconditionally going to be more right after you get more.

 

[ebike11]

I seen that the ND1082400 fardriver is 2400pahse and 1350 battery....are those numbers continuous? On your controller as well?

I'm OK with 2400A phase and 1350A battery. Currently I peak ~850Amps battery and phase with similar max limits.
The 2400A phase is what matters to me, because the slow and time consuming part of the 1/4mile is when you're starting, and whole the back half of the track only lasts a few seconds (and I will still be +500A more battery current than before). +50kW more on top of a bike that already dyno'ing 70rwhp should be a solid improvement. 8)

Yes 1/4 mile take off is crucial.
Is that with your deathbike motor??
Inassume you need a wheelie bar or very long swingarm

Wheelie bar unloads your rear wheel to protect from flipping over, but unloading your rear wheel isn't how to get a good 60ft time or a good 1/4mile time. I've extended the rear wheel location backwards 3 times already, and I'm happy to extend it back again if I feel constrained by wheelie limits. I've got a pair of amazing motor options for deathbike, and if the dyno shows they are saturating at 2400Amps, I will rebuild them with wider stators until the iron stops saturing.

The right amount of drag racing phase current is more. The right amount of motor power is more. Doesn't matter how much you're starting from, its unconditionally going to be more right after you get more.

sounds great!
whats your personal 1/4 mile best??

 

[Audisport09]

If you could implement variable regen which works to 0mph, I would bin my BAC8000 instantly.

 

[nicobie]

I can't even imagine running a bike with that amount of phase current!

Luke- Looks like your bike has changed a bit from the stock pink walmart one w/method's Kelly controller and a motor that we drilled vent holes in the AM before that "Death Race" in NM.

Unless I'm mistaken, that was Deathbike V1. You need to post a pic of your current model. I'm curious to see if you still hold the batteries on with a hf ratchet strap. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Redsea Rider]

On 2022-04-04 17:14, S_____ B____ wrote:
> Hello
>
> Can you support in 3 motor CAN bus configuration tadpole trike ? Rear
> motor would be Yuma 15kw . Front two motors Grin Technologies thru
> axle motors 1200w peak . Thanks…
> S______.

Hi How's it going?

The bad - Our understanding is that each motor requires its own controller with a shared (branched/forked) signal wire using one +5v and one ground wire from one controller.
The good - There are many tuning options easily adjusted on the "Paras" (parameters) page in the app.

1. Throttle acceleration steps - 0 - 224
2. Throttle voltage on point - 0.9 - 5.0
3. Throttle mode - eco, sport, linear
4. Eco mode - 1 - 8 (8 - off 1 - is walk mode)
5. RPM torque max - 0 - 100% through 18 RPM ranges (speed) to set power (Amp) limits
6. Phase current limit
7. Bus current limit
8. Start speed limit
9. max speed coefficient
10. RPM limit
11. PID (Proportional Integral Derivative) KI & KP motor settings - start, mid, max, curve time
12. Flux weakening - 7 onset levels + 3 character settings (fast - mid - slow)


These are all set during auto learning when you first install the controller. With the wheels off the ground you have the ability to adjust any setting live using the app. Apply throttle while monitoring the RPM of the motors until they appear synced through the full RPM range. After a satisfactory setting is found you'll need to find out how the motors respond under load, at speed, uphill etc.





--
Jamie D'Amato
Technical Lead
Far Driver USA EU
support@fardriver.io

 

[liveforphysics]

I can't even imagine running a bike with that amount of phase current!

Luke- Looks like your bike has changed a bit from the stock pink walmart one w/method's Kelly controller and a motor that we drilled vent holes in the AM before that "Death Race" in NM.

Unless I'm mistaken, that was Deathbike V1. You need to post a pic of your current model. I'm curious to see if you still hold the batteries on with a hf ratchet strap. :lol: :lol: :lol:

The last version of Deathbike was stolen sadly my friend. This version will be a ground up fresh design.
This time I don't need to rush build it in a week for a race, I can take my time and I've got radically better resources and equipment today.

 

[Redsea Rider]

would love to work with you on this build sir.
You mentioned battery options you have available.
What are the continuous and max amps capabilities?
I ask because I have a battery in mind for the build I believe you'll find interesting. See images I will post another with higher spec when I return to the office.





What are your plans for the motor?
You mentioned having a few motor options.
What wheel size and what layout were you envisioning?
Mid-mount or hub?
Mid is great for ratio flexibility at the expense of central volume for battery location...

 

[liveforphysics]

Powerful looking pack!

We have pack cycling equipment up to 2,000Amps discharge and 5,500Amps charging. It would be fun to exercise that pack a bit while instrumented with temp sensors everywhere and see how it looks.

I have some excellent motor options available, and try to use the awesomely efficient Zero motorcycle stator and rotors whenever suitable. Combining a pair of there stators and rotor into a single double length custom case and double length rotor shaft is a proven method for preventing saturation currents if I'm able to overwhelm something like the ZF-75-10 motor into saturation with 2400Amps phase.

I've had good luck running 17inch motorcycle tires, both in custom laced rims and cast sportbike wheels. I would run bicycle tires and rims when the race required it, however it would be a tire and wheel per heat and per race (racing on Kart tracks and supermoto tracks), and I would have to baby them to finish a dozen laps. The superbike tires take the power all race and just stay nice and warm.

Im very excited to get your controller on the dyno soon whenever it arrives.

 

[Doctorbass]

Well I heard high phase current and batt current!

Time to spend more time on the E-S like before i think! !

Luke I'm also very curious about that controller and curious if it's cheap chineese phase amp or real phase amps!

I am also very curious to see this new Deathbike my friend!

The dual 75-7 motor you are talking about remind me the one from Curtiss motor company. ( a "75-14" or.. dual 75-7)

I think Craig Calfee also made one with carbon wrap rotor right?

Doc

 

[liveforphysics]

Ohh yeah Doc!! Wow for drool worthy motors!

Looks like someone saved me the trouble of making double stator width Zero motors! How lucky! I would be so incredibly grateful if you could arrange the ability to purchase one of those motors wound for ~28s. Would they be willing to make a triple wide?

It takes a serious amount of power for an ebike to beat my stock grocery getter Plaid.

 

[Doctorbass]

The pictures are not from me but from curtiss motorcycle company. They made their own version of dual stack in parthnership with ZERO ( you probably already know i guess).

https://curtissmotorcycles.com/
+1 205-352-3434
info@curtissmotorcycles.com

Electrek made an article about that:
Under the hood, so to speak, is where things get even more innovative. In a partnership with Zero electric motorcycles, Curtiss has developed the all new Curtiss E-twin platform, consisting of two Zero electric motors coupled with a single output shaft and capable of twice the power and torque.

Cornille estimates that the two motors working in tandem are good for 290 ft-lbs (393 Nm) of torque and 170 hp (127 kW). Speaking at the Quail Motorcycle Gathering, famous motorcycle enthusiast and writer Paul d’Orléans described the Zeus as “Probably one of the most powerful motorcycles, besides a Boss Hoss. That’s got to be one of the most powerful electric motorcycles ever built!” https://electrek.co/2018/05/09/curtiss-motorcycles-unveils-zeus-electric-motorcycle/

BUT !!!
There is Also Craig from https://calfeedesign.com/ told me he made some dual stack zero motor.

They make custom motor mod but also carbon wrap. I asked him for my sur ron motor rotor mod for fun =)

Methods know them also btw

Calfee Design, Inc.
681 Beach Drive
La Selva Beach, CA 95076
(831) 728 1859
www.calfeedesign.com

Doc

 

[john61ct]

Welcome back Doc, we missed ya

 

[Redsea Rider]

Luke I'm also very curious about that controller and curious if it's cheap chineese phase amp or real phase amps!

...

Doc

These aren't typical "cheap" products they are well constructed and durable. I myself believe that bus is are t
"Real" amps but "cheap definitely does NOT apply here. With flux weakening the phase amps will decrease as speed increases as well so it's hard to say. In the 0-50kph acceleration the phase amps would be fully available. As the rpms increase and approach maximum turns per volt the flux manipulation would reduce the phase amps below the bus amp level.

I'm curious about your definition of "cheap" phase amps? Do you mean cheap as in theoretical and rarely achieved in the wild?

 

[Doctorbass]

Luke I'm also very curious about that controller and curious if it's cheap chineese phase amp or real phase amps!

...

Doc

These aren't typical "cheap" products they are well constructed and durable. I myself believe that bus is are t
"Real" amps but "cheap definitely does NOT apply here. With flux weakening the phase amps will decrease as speed increases as well so it's hard to say. In the 0-50kph acceleration the phase amps would be fully available. As the rpms increase and approach maximum turns per volt the flux manipulation would reduce the phase amps below the bus amp level.

I'm curious about your definition of "cheap" phase amps? Do you mean cheap as in theoretical and rarely achieved in the wild?

I guess Luke could get the very rare motor version called "hybrid 66V" version of the 75-7 capable of 1200A per stator ( 2400A total for the dual version) This motor is a special winding for the 2012 ZERO working on 18s, that were fabricated for a recall to replace the deffective motenergy me0913. With that 66V version with a higher kv, the field weakening amps would less be required and leave more phase amp for torque generation from the total 2400amps budget. (large powerband with less field weakening) I know Luke is dreaming of a motor with a single turn and millions amps :lol: but let say the 4 turn 66V version seem a great trade off for now!

Redsea Rider, i did not want to offence you by saying chineese amps... but here on E-S it's been well known that many controllers people order here are often very cheap ( not all the sevcon, rinehart, siemens, rimac etc) and that the construction , fake parts or overspecs would require to add a kind of safety margin... rule of thumb is that you multiply amps by about 2/3 to get these to survive on the conditions that not cheap controllers would normally do at 100% true rating.
Just like car audio amp indicating 2400watts rms on the box but that the 12V fuses total just 90 amps total ... lol

That said, i am very curious on what Luke will be able to acheive with his controller!

I was VERY interested in one of these controllers too but there are two main reasons i can not order one :
first, i dont have 3 or 4K$ for that
and second, i dont have a motor capable of supporting 2400A phase without melting or passing the cury point etc... from now unless i rewind it!

Doc

 

[liveforphysics]

The hybrid 66v winding would be perfect in the double wide Curtis shell.

I will reach out to them and see if they are interested in making it for me.

 

[liveforphysics]

I know Luke is dreaming of a motor with a single turn and millions amps :lol: but let say the 4 turn 66V version seem a great trade off for now!

YES to Million Amps phase current!!

I will buy the first MegaAmp phase current controller for 72Vdc or 120Vdc operational range that anyone makes, and use it to take every internal combustion acceleration-related record on the planet!

If this 2400Amp controller works well, I will buy the next higher current version you can produce anytime you can build it.
The right amount of phase current is MOAR!

 

[Redsea Rider]

lol ok Luke I'll let you know.

 

[DogDipstick]

Maybe you can let me know something. Is this you that posted this this morning on the Electric Motorcycle forum?

One on one phone / facetime/ teams calls $500 USD send inquiries to sales@fardriver.io also email support for $300 USD.

Are you the same guy on Facebook who is now trying to charge 300$ for an email and 500$ for a phone call? Do you know anything about that guy?

Are you connected to FarDriver? Do you have contract with them, or are you just a reseller? Do they know you are charging 500$ for a phone call? Is that you, who raised the price for support 100% when someone asked a question? Ironically, this guy had the same price for support as you did.. until the person raised the price 100% for support.

You both share the same Email address.

Do you know anything about this? Is this officially sanctioned by Far Driver?

MY question is:
You will honor the 30$/50$ as quoted in this thread, should I come to you for support? YOU did not raise the prices? The 30$/50$ quoted prior still stands? Is that the cost of support for your product?


Thankyou for the response.

lol ok Luke I'll let you know.

 

[DogDipstick]

I got a response, the guy seemed sharp like a good engineer in his communication and asked the right setup questions. SOOO

Did you pay.. 30$? 50$?

.. or did you pay 300$? Or 500$? For the support. I am a little confused as to the cost. Geeze I couldnt imagine putting down 500$ for a phone call. We only charge 200$ per hour for engineering consultations.

 

[liveforphysics]

I never talked on the phone, and he answered each purchasing related question for me competently by email, and only charged for the controller, but I don't generally need any tech support beyond a pinout.

I've seen people charge $5,000usd/hr who were worth every penny, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. That may mean it's never worth it for your personal ebike project, but for someone else's product design or racing program, it might be the difference between success or failure to have good setup input.

 

[amberwolf]

Did you pay.. 30$? 50$?

.. or did you pay 300$? Or 500$? For the support. I am a little confused as to the cost. Geeze I couldnt imagine putting down 500$ for a phone call.

From the first post, it says (implies with the wording given) that if you bought your stuff somewhere else than Fardriver, you can pay for support from Fardriver, but if you buy from Fardriver, support from Fardriver is free:

(quoted first just the support-related info, then the whole first post)

Free Tech support with purchase with live calls during set-up.
<snip>
Tech support available for equipment purchased independently:
Video/Phone -$50/hr
Email - $30/hr

160 KW Auto configuring controllers and kits for any budget in stock and ready to ship
Due to the Russia/Ukraine conflict there will be ongoing commensurate price/shipping adjustments
100-300 Amp Battery packs
>1000amp 84v(24s) special order - inquire for price
USA and Europe + Worldwide fast (30-45 days controllers/ motors, 4-6 weeks batteries)

Free Tech support with purchase with live calls during set-up.

Spring/Summer Specials:

Rolling chassis (two wheels w/ frame - no motor / motor removed) customer's own motorcycle electric conversion -

Novice (60-70MPH 30 hwy 45 city mile range) - 2KW motor + 360A FOC controller + 84v30AH Li-Ion battery $1699 shipped
Experienced (80-90mph 40 hwy 60 city mile range) - 3KW motor + 530Amp FOC controller + 88v50AH Li-Ion = $2499
Advanced (100+mph 50 hwy 70 city mile range) - 5KW motor + 850Amp FOC controller + 88v60AH Li-Ion battery = $3499


sample pricing:
ND721200 (600A bus) + Yuma 17" 15KW = $3499 shipped

ND72360 (170 bus) + Yuma 17" 2KW = $899 shipped

72v40AH li-ion battery w/ 300amp BMS = $1099 shipped

Tech support available for equipment purchased independently:
Video/Phone -$50/hr
Email - $30/hr

Send serious purchasing inquiries to sales@fardriver.io

please specify:
1. your battery volts when fully charged.
2. your battery maximum continuous amperage.
3. wheel size for motor and kit orders
4. Dimensions needed for battery orders

sales@fardriver.io

 

[john61ct]

If only the same were true for Sevcon.

Apparently ASI BAC is pretty well covered by Martin.

If Far Driver is serious about selling to DIYers these questions will hopefully get nailed down, the worst is uncertainty

 

[DogDipstick]

Now dont get me wrong. I have heard GREAT things about these controllers, and have helped build a few batteries to power them certainly. I need to know if this professional is supporting a product or not. Alot of question has arisen recently...

If only the same were true for Sevcon.

Apparently ASI BAC is pretty well covered by Martin.

If Far Driver is serious about selling to DIYers these questions will hopefully get nailed down, the worst is uncertainty

ANY hope of selling to DIY buyers.. needs support. Even for the reseller.

Yes, this is it. If I want to sell any number of controller with some repercussion: I need to know the price for the support is NOT going to increase tenfold in the next day. Should one of my customers come to me with questions, I MUST be able to answer them.


Amber: Here is the most recent quote I have seen: Quoted April 15, on Electric Motorcycle Builds Facebook forum.

DIRECT QUOTE FROM FARDRIVER:

One on one phone / facetime/ teams calls $500 USD send inquiries to sales@fardriver.io also email support for $300 USD.

Source:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/electricmotorcyclebuilds/posts/2471424802994876/?comment_id=2471704229633600&reply_comment_id=2472370679566955&notif_id=1650162593109482&notif_t=group_comment_mention

Does the price change depending on the mood Fardriver.io is in that day? Yes. This seems to be the case. I need to know this will not happen. Getting pissed off at a few people and then raising the price for everybody is unacceptable.

From the first post, it says (implies with the wording given) that if you bought your stuff somewhere else than Fardriver, you can pay for support from Fardriver, but if you buy from Fardriver, support from Fardriver is free:
(quoted first just the support-related info, then the whole first post)

Free Tech support with purchase with live calls during set-up.
<snip>
Tech support available for equipment purchased independently:
Video/Phone -$50/hr
Email - $30/hr

Send serious purchasing inquiries to sales@fardriver.io


sales@fardriver.io

[/quote]

I've seen people charge $5,000usd/hr who were worth every penn

I dont ask if the cost is acceptable or not. Profit is the margin of the seller. I asked if the price will change any day, subject to the next, 10x.
Is it typical to increase the price for said support tenfold depending on the mood that day? One day it is $5,000, the next it is 50,000$? I did not know this was typical in said contracting... ?

Perhaps I will gather a response with this email address: lvchao@far-driver.com

I need concrete quotes, not quotes that change 10x with the "weather". If I am buying 10 or 100 controllers with my inheritance, earnings, and good hard earned USD money, I need the answered concrete. My customers will deal with ME ( for the support), not Fardriver, and I will pocket the profit, but I need an reliable support channel to do that. Honest business. Honest contract ( verbal or written).

The good will not sell without support, and if I cannot afford the support for my customers, I cannot sell the goods.

IDK.

 

[liveforphysics]

Nobody is forcing you to buy one, or to buy many of them in attempts to profit from your customers.

I was told there's only two of the 2400Amp controllers that have ever entered the USA, one is on a hotrod scooter, the other will come to me as some point soon and get throughly dyno tested by Arlin or myself. We will share test data.

Some of us have seen companies like Sevcon-Borg Warner charge 6-digit labor prices for controller setup and tuning just to have the output be discovery that it was not successful inverter/motor pair combo.

 

[Scottydog]

Okay so Far Driver on Facebook Electric Motorcycle Builds page is Redsea Rider on ES based on email address.

I've recently purchased 450/850A Fardriver from China, I have to say the "package" sure isn't like a Kelly.

There seems to be no clear info from the Far Driver website regarding various generations of software for pc, Android or I phone. It seems very haphazard where I find myself searching through youtube or Facebook like a crack head trying to find software or information on setting to what will work.

I get this feeling that the Chinese versions of the software / apps must have more parameters as there are many vids online of users using them with no obvious issues.